Is This Better?

As to my earlier question, you can't do it can you?
Are you capable of actually debating this issue, or are you just going to keep posting the same 'jew hater' rubbish? Allow me to clarify something ONCE AGAIN, try debating instead of generalizing or assuming, cause frankly I don't give a shiny red rat's butt what religon is behind this. It violates the first ammendment and costs the other 97% of consumers billions. If it were a hindu cow inspection fee, it would still be a scam.
If you can't debate your position then prepare to go on my ignore list, both of YOU.

O/T

twitchy, where in NC are you from?

Somewhere on almost every food product you buy is a little bit of information on the company location or some contact information. I work in a grocery store so I pay alot of attention to it also because I plan on going big business in my life. One interestig thing I noticed was how many different brand products are actually owned by the same company. I believe Keeblers and Kellogs are owned by the same parent company. Anyways I am going to pick out a dozen or so different parent companies, contact them with the information they have on their packaging, and ask them how much they incur in this Kosher inspection fee. Whether I do it by phone or letter I will post the responses here to this thread. Give me about 2 weeks due to time restraints and such. It may be easier for me to write them so that when they write a response I can simply scan their letter to post.

twitchy, I HAVE offered several rebuttals to your arguments, but YOU seem fixated on whether or not you are a hate monger.

Look the original thread you started has been deleted, but those of us that read it saw clearly that you agenda was hatred toward jews...

For myself, I don't care what you think, but I have addressed, extensively, your arguments against labeling as Kosher, but you have not addressed my response, and you don't see me sniveling about your ignoring the response...

Originally posted by theron dunn
twitchy, I HAVE offered several rebuttals to your arguments, but YOU seem fixated on whether or not you are a hate monger.
Look the original thread you started has been deleted, but those of us that read it saw clearly that you agenda was hatred toward jews...
For myself, I don't care what you think, but I have addressed, extensively, your arguments against labeling as Kosher, but you have not addressed my response, and you don't see me sniveling about your ignoring the response...

Yeah let's take a look at your 'rebuttals'...

quote: Originally posted by theron dunn
transparent antisemitism...
BARELY concealed anti jewish rhetoric.
antisemitism, or, probably more accurately, anti religion.
jewish hate,
antijewish terms
anti jewish propaganda.
neonazi anti jew rhetoric.

And of course more recently, "hatred toward jews"
Who's fixated? Get some debate skills, or be ignored. Billions, and given this scheme goes on in other indutrialized nations, it is more likely in the trillions. I'll give you one more chance to debate the facts I have presented, otherwise your anti-twitchyism will be ignored.
I am literally begging you to debate here without turning it into some narrow rhetorical 'hate' issue.

Ok, just to help you out, I will REPOST my earlier comments. Perhaps you would like to address the substance of what I wrote, instead of personally attacking me? That's what you did last time, suggesting I read your post, which I did, and have offered comments on your... commentary.

You just want to focus on the real issue, which is your race baiting...

Once more:

posted on 10/28/04 at 19:02 Post Number: 908956 (post id: 929650) edit quote
Ok, lets focus here. there seem to be three issues here:

1) PRIVATE companies selling food that is certified Kosher
2) The Cost or additional cost of those fooks compared to non koasher foods
3) A church/state separation.

So lets deal with the first issue. In America, and I am sure it is similar in other countries with a free or semi free economy, a company produces a product for a market, and offers it at a fair price, or, a company, offering a product, and SEEING a market share available, changes its products to include that share.

Now, being a free market, the product will either be purchsed and succeed (See Proctor and Gamble or Snapple) or will fail (no example)... In this case, if you do not like Kosher foods or Kosher products, being a free market, do not buy them. You can therefore wield the mighty strength of your dollar to hurt them... do not buy their products.

2) the second issue is the additional cost. So, if you eat or live Kosher, and need the product to maintain your religious purity, you will pay WHATEVER it takes to get what you think you need. More, if the producers of the products want their product to sell, they must keep the price reasonably close to the market for similar products. Again, see #1. If you feel the price is too high for what you are getting, DON'T, for g-d's sake, buy it.

3) Church state separation. Look you need to read the constitution. The constitution says the State shall make no law... establishing a religion. It does not say anything about supporting product labeling or establishing standards. Just like the standards for "Light" beer, "Low calorie", "Diet" etc., they established standards for companies that wish to label their products as "Kosher", which seems to be a consumer protection issue, and not one of the establishment of a religion by the state.

Your point noted that the company was establishing a religion. Well, this is incorrect, they are marketing TO a market segment, which is a religious one, and even if they WERE establishing a religion, that is not illegal. There are HUNDREDS of religions in America, and all of them can claim a tax exempt status.

< SNIP >

In my opinion, the argument you are putting forth is spurrious, and is plainly antisemetic... ESPECIALLY having read your original post on this subject, which was deleted by the mods as being racist and inflamatory.

Ignore anyone if you want, it is clear that you are not reading anyone's responses anyway...

Now, would you like to address the substance of my reply, or are you just ignore me again?

Originally posted by theron dunn
Ok, just to help you out, I will REPOST my earlier comments. Perhaps you would like to address the substance of what I wrote, instead of personally attacking me?

I'm not attacking you, I'm callenging you to debate the issue. I have addressed EVERY SINGLE POINT you made. But here you go again...

your race baiting...
antisemetic
spurrious

As to the issues I have 'failed to address', well, I'll list them and you go back, actually read my posts and name a single one of them I have not addressed.
Free Market
Additional Cost
Seperation of Church and State
In fact I have spent three pages responding.
You keep insisting I am a racist Jew Hater, then you have the audacity to claim I am attacking you? That's funny. What's even funnier is you can't post a serious reply. Why are you trying so hard to turn this into a racist issue? It's kind of sickening, instead of trying to get the thread closed, if it offends you so bad, stay off the thread. Are you obsessed with this thread, or are you so thrilled about kosher food fees that you feel compelled to defend them with this racist bologna?
Let me clarify this once again dude, I don't hate anyone, I don't have an anti-semitic agenda, I am not a racist. I am a consumer and therefore entitled to an opinion on a scam that costs the american food market billions of dollars. Is that such a hard concept for you to grasp? You keep posting and posting and posting trying to turn this into a racial issue, it isn't. Do you understand that? Do you understand that if you find the thread offensive or non-kosher, you have the right to go on with your life and post elsewhere?
In other words, debate me, or go on with your life, but claiming I am racist is ridiculous, when you don't know me from adam. Again I repeat myself, this topic isn't a racist issue. I know you 'and' LTD would like to make it seem like a racist issue, but it isn't.
It is becomming pretty obvious what you 'and' LTD are trying to do here. 'We' don't like your opinion so we are going to pick a fight to get the thread closed. I'm not interested in your 'racist' absurdities.
What I am interested in is calling attention to a multi-billion dollar food tax in the name of a religous organization, and discussing it with other members of ATS.
Is that ok with you?

You STILL haven't addressed the substance of my reply. You started off by attacking me, and suggesting I reread (or actually, I believe you said that I should actually read your post, inferring that I hadn't read that twaddle you posted) and did not address or reply, focusing instead on my notation of your motives, AND pointing to why i suspect the same.

NOW, are you actually going to reply to my reply, or are you going to simply focus on what I wrote BEFORE about your motives?

Get with it... you post, i replied, now its your turn to substantively reply to MY post... and not with a bunch of citations which I am not going to read through AGAIN. Show me why my point about market factors is not relevant...

Originally posted by intrepid
In Canada we have a kosher foods tax exemption worth $500/year. This exemption can be claimed by everyone that uses the products on the list.

That's actaully not a bad idea intrepid and it raises a question as well,
Just to throw some figrues around here....
if you figure the population of Canada at roughly 32 million www.statcan.ca...
then multiply that times 500.00 Canadian Dollars in exemptions a piece, you end up with 16,000,000,000 16 trillion canadian dollars that are eligible for exemption, now obviously this is 'raw' data, so lets break it down.
Obiously there are some jewish folks in Canada, so lets take them out of the exemption status, which is roughly 360,000 people
www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...
32 million minus 360,000=31,640,000
Wow, it's still 15,820,000,000 canadian dollars.
That means the Canadian Government realizes that the Kosher Food fees is a signifigant enough burden on the population to offer 15 trillion dollars in exemptions. Now of course all these folks aren't old enough to be tax payers, and I tried to find some statistic on what number of canadians are under the age of 18, but I think it's safe to assume that even if we take them out of the equation, it's still going to be alot of money.

We need something like there in the US, our poulation is 294,644,000
www.census.gov...
Taking the 3% of our population that are actually profiting from this, we get 285,805,000, if we gave these people a 500 exemptions to recoup them for these kosher fees it would add up to 142 trillion dollars.
Obviously this figure is inflated as it doesn't reflect the non-taxable population i.e. children, but I think my point is clear. The Us and Canada aren't the only ones paying Kosher fees either...

Look, your numbers are way skewed, but hey, its your rant...

If you don't like the purported extra cost in Kosher labled food, DON'T BUY THEM.

It seems that the simple answer is being avoided assidulously. Why is that?

Nope, I have replied to that as well in my 'rantings'. You obviously have no clue as to the sheer number of products that involved here. To tell me I have to settle for less than name brand quality because I don't like paying religous assosciated fees being charged by less than 3% of the population, is pure anti-twitchyism. Yes my numbers are skewed, but only because I cannot find any exact statistics on the percentage of Canada's non-tax paying population, if you had read my post you would be aware of that. But what my numbers DO represent is that the Canadian Government realizes what a tremendous financial burden is placed on the rest of the non-jewish majority of the population and has the decency to offer their citizens a tax exemption to recoup the billions of dollars in Jewish inflated fees on their food costs. If it isn't so widespread, then why are they offering an exemption? Yes I have addressed the issue as to why not buy them, repeatedly. Fact is, you can't really not buy them. Have you looked around in your grocery store? If you don't start reading my posts here before you reply, I'm going to 'ignore' you. I address these issues repeatedly, and yet you claim I don't. I really don't want to embarass you by quoting my earlier responses to this issue, but yes I have addressed that, over and over... Do you like coke or pepsi? How about the New York City Water system? Are you reading or ranting yourself?

Originally posted by twitchy
www.statcan.ca...
then multiply that times 500.00 Canadian Dollars in exemptions a piece, you end up with 16,000,000,000 16 trillion canadian dollars that are eligible for exemption, now obviously this is 'raw' data, so lets break it down.
Obiously there are some jewish folks in Canada, so lets take them out of the exemption status, which is roughly 360,000 people

16,000,000,000 is 16 billion, not trillion (which would be 16,000,000,000,000), if you can't discern the difference between billion and trillion I would say you credibility on more esoteric subjects to be suspect.

Originally posted by Mirthful Me

Originally posted by twitchy
www.statcan.ca...
then multiply that times 500.00 Canadian Dollars in exemptions a piece, you end up with 16,000,000,000 16 trillion canadian dollars that are eligible for exemption, now obviously this is 'raw' data, so lets break it down.
Obiously there are some jewish folks in Canada, so lets take them out of the exemption status, which is roughly 360,000 people

16,000,000,000 is 16 billion, not trillion (which would be 16,000,000,000,000), if you can't discern the difference between billion and trillion I would say you credibility on more esoteric subjects to be suspect.

Right you are, my bad. Billions. I feel alot better now thanks.

Look, maybe its just that I don't get what your beef is... the products are sold for a market segment that is apparently large enough to justify the additional per unit cost. Your projection of BILLIONS of dollars in additional costs also isn't justified in the process you used. The claim of $16 billion in additional costs in Canada just doesn't pass the common sense test.

$16,000,000,000 divided by 2080 and then $50 per hour gives a ridiculous 156,846 man years of labor PER YEAR in additional costs for certifying that foods are Kosher... not really very realistic. The Gross Domestic Product for Canada in the year 2003 was only$1,012.7 billion Data Source which by your figures mean the ADDITIONAL cost of certifying foods as Kosher, in Canada alone, was 1.5% of the Gross Domestic Product of the whole COUNTRY.

Now, the products are marketed because there is a market for them. I have no problem with the cost of a coke, a pepsi, etc etc., nor after reading through your materials, do I see any valid point to your argument. ESPECIALLY with the numbers you are trying to tout...

If it cost that much to certify any product as Kosher, NO ONE WOULD MARKET to the small segment, only 360,000 Data Source. Your numbers simply don't add up the way you are trying to present them. So, again, I come back to the point, what is the problem?

In the US, we have US Department of Agriculture employees that work in the food producing plants and facilities to certify that the food has been prepared in accordance with the rules defined by the USDA... that adds to the cost of the food, but no one is complaining, since it ENSURES A QUALITY product. I just don't see what your problem is with PRIVATE companies that choose to add a Kosher certification to their products.

The reason the Government oversees the Kosher label is the same reason the government (here in the US, anyway) has the USDA inspect meat, fish, and other products.

So, again, I come back to the question, what is your complaint?

Well after reviewing a few websites that I will post at the end of this thread I have discovered that I, a Non-Jew who doesnt know or give a damn whether my food is Kosher or not, has a kitchen full of Kosher Certified products of which the price includes the cost of tax towards some organization that must inspect this stuff and whatnot. If you use Nestle Quick, you know the one with the rabbit, for your chocolate milk then you have purchased a product in which a fraction of that price goes towards a Jewish organization. Although the cost to the individual may not be noticeable, it is abviously a noticeable profit for the communtiy due to sheer volume of products sold. Could this be why we are a consumer based society? I am not sure, a theory maybe. Regardless I will post of a few facts with links now.

I want to know that this money is going towards a good cause or helping people out. Instead we know absolutely nothing of where this money is going except to pay the rabbis that certify them. If you buy Starkist tuna, bumblebee tuna, nestle quick, heinz ketchup, vlasic pickles all these products have the kosher certification on them. According to figures I gather the lowest speculated tax is 6.5 millionths (.0000065) of a cent per unit sold. Let us assume that is the tax for EVERY single product, although it is undoubtable that most products have a much higher tax rate. With a 130 billion dollar kosher certified food industry in 1999 thats over 800,000 dollars in one year a very conservative estimate if you ask me and still alot for what is done. My question is simply where does the money go? I sure hope it goes towards cancer or alternative fuels research because I would hate to know if it actually just went straight into their pockets or worse towards the Israeli military to further subdue the Palestinians.

Here are some more links.
Link 1
Link 2
Even David Icke (although I think he is a quack on many of his theories) talks about it

Added in:
If the USDA has already certified our food safe to eat, why then does another private organization have to certify a very large percentage of them for a minority group safe to eat? My arguement is if these organizations are getting this money they better damn well be using it for a good cause. And it strikes me odd that a Laundry detergant such as Tide should be certified as Kosher.

[edit on 10/31/2004 by DYepes]

Ok, first, it is NOT a tax. The manufacturer incures the cost to pay a rabbi, not an organization, to certifiy, and a part of that, I am sure, goes to making sure that the product is actually Kosher, by separating how it is produced.

Second, the producers of the product wish to sell it certified as Kosher, to reach a market segment. I come back to the same thing... if you do not wish to buy or therefore indirectly pay a rabbi to certify Kosher, DON'T BUY THE PRODUCT THAT HAS THE K CERTIFICATION ON IT.

Its really simple... you may not like the alternatives, for instance Coke and Pepsi are certified Kosher, as well as a number of other products, but hey, that is what free enterprise is all about. Don't buy their products if you don't like paying an extra $ .00005 in the price...

I mean, YOU wield the ultimate power... don't buy, write and tell them you won't buy because they are Kosher... I don't imagine that will make a dent in their product sales, but that is your choice. For myself, I just don't see what the big deal is... unless its that other reason I and others raised earlier that caused so much dissention...

In the meanwhile, if it really bothers you, heed my simple advice:

DON'T BUY THEIR PRODUCTS.

You and ltd... Pro jewish bias?
Your loc Says california, The site you help maintain down there by the Riverside is www.freemasoninfo.ca... a site donated to you, brethern, by Stephen Dafoe Network of Web Sites, Stephen Dafoe is a prominent and vey outspoken Canadian Mason. LTD's loc says 'east" but he has claimed in other threads to be from Canada. Let's see what Stephen Dafoe says on religous folks shall we?
The Stephen Dafoe Network of Web Sites...
www.freemasoninfo.ca...

...No the true Christian cannot be a Freemason.

So really, given this, why would "both" of you be so fiercely in defense of another religous organization?
Maybe this is why...?
This seems to make a clear statement that is relevant considering that yes it's billions of dollars we are talking about here...

Stephen Dafoe
History of the Knights Templar
A close rapport was also maintained with Jewish communities, financial interests...

A financial interest? Hmmm, That's interesting I wonder where he got that idea? Whom does the 'kosher' grail serve?
Here knock yourself out, www.google.com...
He seems rather pro-jewish to me...
So in conclusion either 'both' of you share the same pro-jewish bias, or you are the same guy because you guys are both on the same threads, roughly at the same times but not at the exact same times eh?. One of them cuts and pastes an article (in violation of TOS) while the other argues posting within a few minutes of each other. Look at the deleted posts, forget which account you were signed in on? Yeah it's pure speculation but I'd be willing to bet in addition to similar views, you probably have simialr IP addys, same styles, SAME BIAS.
Now in response to your question, my problem is that a religous organization is using the federal, states, and local governments to charge our major food comapnies a fee to maintain their religous standards. Fees that amount in the billions of dollars that result in inflated food costs on name brand products that have nothing to do with deuteronomy. The FDA inspects adn is regulated by the government, but they aren't a religon are they? The 1st ammendment doen't mention safe national standards for quality in consumable goods, it says you can't mandate religon through government. Take some more classes doc. Kosher Fees are a raket, even some rabbi's say this, or did you miss that one in my prior posts? If it were a matter of mrketing, then why pain it out of advertisments to the other 97%? If it were about laws in deuteronomy, explain kosher toliet bowl cleaner to me? NYC public water sytem? Estimates at 30 billion in this country alone, and you can't even choose betwen coke or pepsi without paying up.

I forgot to include this link... More biased than I thought...
www.google.com...

edit... you seem to do alot of this... www.google.com...
What does that one sight mean by 'masons practicing jewish magic'?


[edit on 1-11-2004 by twitchy]

Being critical of a clearly unconstitutional practice that costs billions to consumers is NOT anti-semitic. Really if you think about it, supressing any critism simply creates anti-semitism. Look at what secrecy and supression does for your own free and accepted beliefs. People don't like being mislead or overcharged. Call it human nature, but why is pulling a hand out of your pocket an issue of hatred. The only one screaming hatred is the guy with his hand in your pocket, that's why.

All ingredients must be charged fees...Right down to the very last lactic acid...
www.wilkeresources.com...
even a small time bakery in france isn't safe lol...
www.demarleusa.com...
Are they trying to push it to new companies? Well, duh. Yeah they push it.

kosherfest.com...
91% of buyers found new products or companies*

Ah but in the good old days before it was a multi billion dollar scam...

www.asbi.org...
In fact, growing up in Boston in the seventies and early eighties, we did get quality kosher Mozzarella cheese made by Dragonies, which was priced just like any non-kosher cheese. The only requirement for cheese to be kosher, besides just making sure that the ingredients are kosher, which is easy, is for the manufacturer to be Jewish.

This guy doesn't think much of the scam either but I think he explains it pretty well...

www.liesexposed.net...
Usually, a company must initially pay an annual fee for the use of a Jewish certification symbol, such as the "U" or "K." The company will then pay an additional fee each time the rabbi or rabbis appear to conduct an "inspection". Thus, these fees must be paid repeatedly for the products produced.
Companies which produce goods which use ingredients or components from other facilities which have already been blessed or "certified", must again pay another Jew tax on their finished product. Needless to say, it is easy to see how many of the products purchased are taxed several times on their way to the consumer, who ultimately must assume the burden of the product's rip-off inflated price. It has been indicated that many of the companies who rely heavily on the symbols are paying as much as thirty percent of their profits...

Heres a few companies you may have heard of that have to pay what by many accounts would seem to be anti-semitism protection money.. no before you look at this list, keep in mind this isn't anywhere near complete, just a few of the big ones. Also keep in mind this isn's listing the individual products (all of which of course pay a seperate fee), their constiuent ingredients (each supplier of which of course pays a seperate fee), or their subsidary companies (many of which, of course pay a seperate fee for the ingredients etc.).

www.jewwatch.com...
Cracker Jack Foods Corp.
Dole Pineapple Packaged Foods Corp.
International Home Foods, Inc.
Kraft General Foods, Inc.
Mcilhenny Co.
Best Foods International
CPC International, Inc.
General Mills
Nabisco
Dannon Yogurt Dannon Company Inc.
Domino Sugar Corporation
French's Food Products Division Rickitt & Coleman Inc.
Hunt-Wessen INC.
Procter and Gamble
Kellogg Company
Land O'Lakes INC.

here's some more...

truedemocracy.net...
Alberto-Culver
American Home Foods
Armour Foods
Borden Foods
Chock Full O' Nuts
Colgate Palmolive
Dow Chemicals (I am sure this is really pertinent to deuteronomy)
Durkee
Entenmann's
Green Giant
Haagen Dazs
Slim Fast
J.M. Smucker
McCormick & Co.
Nutrasweet
Pepperidge Farm
Pillsbury
Sara Lee Bakery
Starkist
Thomas J. Lipton Tea Co.
Van Camp
Welch
White Rock
3M Corp (Kosher Scrub pads were in deuteronomy?)

You want more examples? sure thing...
Chinet
Arm&Hammer
Reynold's Wrap
Lawry's Foods, Inc.
T.Marzetti Co.
OREO's
Tostitos
Tasty Baking Co.
Hefty
Lysol
Mr. Clean
Dawn Ultra
Ajax
This is only a few I have listed...
Now shall I go on or are you going to realize this may be a widespread kind of thing here? Point is, you can't not buy them. Telling me to settle for lesser quality product because I'm not Jewish, or don't want to pay for jewish fees is sickening and well frankly, racist. And a violation of 1st ammendment as it is legislated and mandated by the government for the "profit making concerns" of a religous organization.
Here's a little recent news for you from a rabbi of all people...

www.denverpost.com...
Rabbi Sommers laughed through his bushy salt-and-pepper beard.
"I would like to put everyone at ease. From a Torah perspective, there is nothing wrong with making lots and lots of money,"...
That's why it's kosher to charge $8 for popcorn at movie theaters, or $150 for Google stock after buyers have a chance to read the "risk factors."...
The Torah and the Talmud demand complete honesty and disclosure in all business dealings, but they do not necessarily demand compassion...
So the Torah really is for tycoons. It doesn't expect players in competitive business arenas to be nice....

No big deal huh?

www.kosherfest.com/main.htm
"More than $130 billion of packaged foods and $300 billion of ingredients produced in the U.S. are certified kosher."

All that and that isn't even beginning to address the smaller 'kosher' operations that are cropping up left and right, that isn't including the competing Kosher organizations nor is it including such ridiculous operations of Kosher weddings, and other events from hotels to god know what. Also it isn't including the international community. And yes, this moeny goes right into their pockets.
Here's a good description of your 'market' rebuttal...

www.jabpage.org...
How often have you read something like this?
Sigh, I wish it wasn't necessary, but I have encountered too many people who seem to believe that kosher certification results in higher prices, when, in fact, due to increased sales, quite the opposite is true.
Did you fall for it? Do you really think that the fees that manufacturers pay to Jewish rabbis, in exchange for permission to stamp the hechsher (any of the Kosher certification symbols) on food products makes the overall cost of making that product less?

You smell anything yet? I do, smells like a scam to me. It sure isn't on the level...
They even offer seminars for jewish folks to teach them how to 'get in on the money'...
Hey AMWAY offers seminars too lol...
www.google.com...
Kosher pyramid scheme? Somebody has to be on top...
www.ukar.org...


[edit on 1-11-2004 by twitchy]

If it cost that much to certify any product as Kosher, NO ONE WOULD MARKET to the small segment, only 360,000 Data Source. Your numbers simply don't add up the way you are trying to present them. So, again, I come back to the point, what is the problem?

This isn't an accurate estimate, reason being that it is not only Jewish people that buy Kosher foods. There are many that choose to buy these products like vegetarians, religious views aside.

Though there is a practice of charging for this, I don't believe it is an unfair practice as long as the burden is passed on to the consumer and that the consumer is aware of why the cost is higher. Generally those buying the Kosher foods understand there is an additional cost associated with the inspections. The government is involved because they have to be. You can't have people making claims that aren't true. For example, fat free food that isn't fat free.

On the other hand, I do not believe that it is fair to force inspections on companies that do not have direct impact on the source of food itself. It is not fair to force inspections on companies that cannot influence that actual final product.