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posted on Oct, 29 2004 @ 01:56 AM
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Heh, I love you too Tut
(sniffle)




posted on Oct, 29 2004 @ 02:15 AM
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Originally posted by LTD602
The bizarre claim by right wing extremists that kosher certification
markings on food labels ("U," "K," etc.) cost consumers extra money and
represent, in effect, a "kosher tax" to make rabbis rich, is a striking
example of the propaganda used by anti-Semites to trick the uninformed
into accepting conspiracy charges and stereotypes about Jews.

And another thing, use your own words. You got this from here, word for word.
www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/american/ adl/kosher-tax/recipe-for-hate.html

or heck maybe you got it from here...
www.google.com...

Can you say Busted? Is it legal to plaugerize on ATS? I think you might have violated your TOS here, but nonetheless, get some original rhetoric or at elast quote somebody when you steal their words.



[edit on 29-10-2004 by twitchy]


no replies yet so I am adding this...
Violation of Church and State? Well, our Court System seems to think so...
www3.baylor.edu...


Kosher?: Without comment, the Supreme Court refused to consider a reinstatement of New York laws that establish standards for labeling kosher Food. The laws prevent fraud in the sale of kosher food. Two Long Island butchers sued the state of New York for its use of an Orthodox Jewish interpretation for deciding what foods to label as Kosher, arguing that such methods favored one religious groups beliefs over others. A federal appeals court struck down the states law, which dated back to 1915. According to a report from CNN.com/Law Center (24 February 2003), as a result of the ruling, nineteen other state laws on kosher food were placed in jeopardy: Arizona, Arkansas, California, Connecticut, Georgia, Illinois, Kentucky, Louisiana, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Texas, Virginia, Washington, and Wisconsin.
The appeals court ruled that the laws improperly take sides in what is considered a religious matter. The attorney for the two butchers, Robert Jay Dinerstein, stated that there are disagreements concerning the interpretation of the Jewish laws that govern what is kosher between the orthodox Jewish community and other communities of Judaism. In a court filing, Dinerstein compared the states use of the strictly orthodox requirements to a state placing priority to Catholic views over other Christian denominations. If another denomination of Christianity offered its members Communion, they could only use a Eucharist and wine approved by the Roman Catholic Church; otherwise, the Communion was illegitimate and perpetrated a fraud. Eliot Spitzer, New Yorks Attorney General, said that determining whether a food is kosher is not such a difficult task. In a filing he told the court, There is no religious dispute that a product containing pork is not kosher, just as there is no religious dispute that meat is not kosher if it is cooked with milk, no effort has been made to draw out and drain its blood, or it has been mixed with other undisputedly non-kosher meat.

Wow the Supreme Court turned it down, WITHOUT COMMENT? How foten do you hear that one? Hmmmm maybe they didn't want to be anti-semitic either.


[edit on 29-10-2004 by twitchy]

[edit on 29-10-2004 by twitchy]



posted on Oct, 29 2004 @ 07:03 AM
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Yes, I got that from there. It was easy to find, and it was easy to use as a response. Seems I forgot to quote it/provide a link. Glad you pointed that out. It was very late when I wrote that post, and I was a bit careless. Not sure how that "busts" me for anything. I happen to find it reasonable. My form was simply off. Mea Culpa.



NOTE TO EVERYONE: Please provide links to all information that is not your own. Give credit where it is due.



[edit on 29-10-2004 by LTD602]



posted on Oct, 29 2004 @ 08:07 AM
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delete-------------

[edit on 29-10-2004 by LTD602]



posted on Oct, 29 2004 @ 11:58 AM
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I have read your posts, twitchy, and stand by my position. It is NOT a tax, it is a service for the product marketed to a marketing sugment. If you do not want to buy food that is certified Kosher... DON'T. Sheesh, talk about making a mountain range our of an anthill!

And I stand by my notation that the whole argument is about antisemitism, and NOT about food prices...



posted on Oct, 29 2004 @ 12:30 PM
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Here is some very basic but illuminating information regarding this topic, which might help some individuals avoid insulting our Jewsih friends any further.

It's a short read, but easily understood:

www.jewishworldreview.com...

Yes, it's from a Jewsih site. I stand by all my Jewish friends on this issue. I work with them, eat with them, and have grown to admire their faith over the years.

If you have any further questions, simply e-mail the site administrators to learn more.



posted on Oct, 29 2004 @ 12:43 PM
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Originally posted by twitchy
Wow the Supreme Court turned it down, WITHOUT COMMENT? How foten do you hear that one? Hmmmm maybe they didn't want to be anti-semitic either.



If one follows the Supreme Court the occurrence you mention is the prevailing outcome. It merely means that the case was properly ruled upon and that further arguments before the Justices would be superfluous.

I submit the following:


cnn.com
Each week, the Court receives about 130 petitions for review, decisions by lower courts appealed to the high Court. Relatively few are granted full review. About 7000 such petitions go on the Court's docket each Term.

Oral arguments may be heard in about 100 cases each year, but final opinions may only be issued in 80-90 cases. In addition, some 1200 legal applications of various types are filed each year that can be acted on by a single justice. The Court's opinions are final, no exceptions.


archives.cnn.com...

7,000 petitions, arguments in about 100 cases, and opinions (decisions) given in 80-90. Sounds like an "foten" event to me.

Legal Monkeys, not just for kangaroo courts anymore...



posted on Oct, 29 2004 @ 12:49 PM
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For more information on Kosher certification, you can direct your questions here:

Rabbi Genack (U)
Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations
45 West 36th Street
New York, New York 10018
(212) 563-4000



(Mirthful, you beat me to the SC issue . . . legal monkey


[edit on 29-10-2004 by LTD602]



posted on Oct, 29 2004 @ 04:12 PM
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Originally posted by theron dunn
I have read your posts, twitchy, and stand by my position. It is NOT a tax, it is a service for the product marketed to a marketing sugment. If you do not want to buy food that is certified Kosher... DON'T. Sheesh, talk about making a mountain range our of an anthill!

And I stand by my notation that the whole argument is about antisemitism, and NOT about food prices...

A thirty Billion dollar a year ant hill. Do you think the food companies absorb this cost, or you do you think they pass it on it on the consumers? You haven't looked through your pantry have you? You can't not buy kosher products, did you really read my posts? It isn't about anti-semitism at all, its about RACKETEERING. It's about a slap in the face of the seperation of Church and State.
You don't like high grocery bills and state regulated and enforced RELIGOUS fees amounting in the billions of dollars so you are jew hater... sad. Get real, it isn't antisemitism, like I said, it is anti-getting-screwed. I don't personally give a flip about the jewish faith, or any other religous organization for that matter. Do they care about me? They sure like my money. Billions. For things like toliet bowl cleaner? What does that have to do with obscure meat laws from deuteronomy? Why would the courts say this is clear violation of the 1st ammenedment? Maybe you understand the law better than the NY supreme court justices and can explain how it isn't a state mandated religous institution? This isn't just a few specialized products, try ACTUALLY reading my information, check out the sources. That Anti-semitism argument gets really tiresome, adn IMO actually breeds anti-semitism. No, you may find it disapointing, but not everybody is out to get the jewish people. But some of us dn't like paying extra to support their interests either.

Originally posted by LTD602
Here is some very basic but illuminating information regarding this topic, which might help some individuals avoid insulting our Jewsih friends any further.
It's a short read, but easily understood:
www.jewishworldreview.com...
Yes, it's from a Jewsih site. I stand by all my Jewish friends on this issue. I work with them, eat with them, and have grown to admire their faith over the years.
If you have any further questions, simply e-mail the site administrators to learn more.

Yeah I find it disturbing frankly that the only people defending this practice are Jewish people and politicians who are lobbied by the jewish interests.



posted on Oct, 29 2004 @ 04:36 PM
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I find it disturbing that this thread has to contine for 3 pages, when all you have to do if you TRULY cared about it is to get in touch with your local MP or Congressman and take some real action. Otherwise, you're coming off as an anti-semite, and by the looks of it here on ATS, a lonely one.



posted on Oct, 29 2004 @ 04:42 PM
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Originally posted by LTD602
I find it disturbing that this thread has to contine for 3 pages, when all you have to do if you TRULY cared about it is to get in touch with your local MP or Congressman and take some real action. Otherwise, you're coming off as an anti-semite, and by the looks of it here on ATS, a lonely one.

What I think you find disturbing is that someone is exposing a multi-billion dollar racketeering scheme and the thread gets views, but to me equally disturbing is you still trying to label me as anti-semetic. This is a discussion board, or are we not allowed to discuss a racketeering scam? If you find the thread so offensive to you, then stay off the thread. It's pretty simple.
Or start your own "I love paying Kosher Fees" thread. Not alot of people know or understand what is actually going here. BILLIONS of dollars...



posted on Oct, 29 2004 @ 04:55 PM
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Originally posted by twitchy

Originally posted by theron dunn
I have read your posts, twitchy, and stand by my position. It is NOT a tax, it is a service for the product marketed to a marketing sugment. If you do not want to buy food that is certified Kosher... DON'T. Sheesh, talk about making a mountain range our of an anthill!

And I stand by my notation that the whole argument is about antisemitism, and NOT about food prices...


A thirty Billion dollar a year ant hill. Do you think the food companies absorb this cost, or you do you think they pass it on it on the consumers? You haven't looked through your pantry have you? You can't not buy kosher products, did you really read my posts?


Of course i read it... though I had to admit I was laughing at most of it... transparent antisemitism...


It isn't about anti-semitism at all, its about RACKETEERING. It's about a slap in the face of the seperation of Church and State.


Oh, baloney. Your post is BARELY concealed anti jewish rhetoric. Its about free enterprise. If you don't like it, don't buy the products, but get over yourself.


You don't like high grocery bills and state regulated and enforced RELIGOUS fees amounting in the billions of dollars so you are jew hater...


not at all... but making nothing into something IS kind of pathetic. The state has always regulated labeling to prevent consumer fraud... do you also object to the labels that claim a bag of potatoe chips is two servings and then gives calorie and other "nutrition information"? Its about regulating the USE of the CLAIM Kosher that the government is involved in, and your example regarding the New York laws is less about USING Kosher and regulating it, that about the governent defining what is and isn't Kosher.


Get real, it isn't antisemitism, like I said, it is anti-getting-screwed. I don't personally give a flip about the jewish faith, or any other religous organization for that matter.


Well, how nice for you. Your statement SHOWS that it IS about antisemitism, or, probably more accurately, anti religion.


Do they care about me? They sure like my money. Billions. For things like toliet bowl cleaner? What does that have to do with obscure meat laws from deuteronomy?


Study the jewish law, and then you MIGHT understand why toilet bowl cleaner falls under the Kosher laws. This is not the proper forum to try to educate you about Jewish Law, nor, really, its clear, do you CARE.


Why would the courts say this is clear violation of the 1st ammenedment? Maybe you understand the law better than the NY supreme court justices and can explain how it isn't a state mandated religous institution? This isn't just a few specialized products, try ACTUALLY reading my information, check out the sources. That Anti-semitism argument gets really tiresome, adn IMO actually breeds anti-semitism. No, you may find it disapointing, but not everybody is out to get the jewish people. But some of us dn't like paying extra to support their interests either.


Well, you can claim I don't read it all you want, and that is just a weak way of trying to shout down my argument... the court did NOT say that it was a violation of the first amendment, what they said was the state, taking sides over issues OF Kosher was a violation, not the regulation of the use of the label. Go read your own citation, and then take a couple of years of law scholl, THEN come back here and try to explain the court.

Its clear that your real agenda is jewish hate, which is why the FIRST thread you started on this issue, which clearly stated your thesis in antijewish terms was closed. Don't try to kid us, i read your first post, and with you it IS about anti jewish propaganda.

if you do not want to buy any product that is aimed at the Jewish market with a Kosher seal, DON'T buy them. Get over yourself... its about marketing, not about your neonazi anti jew rhetoric.



posted on Oct, 29 2004 @ 05:06 PM
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----------delete

[edit on 29-10-2004 by LTD602]



posted on Oct, 29 2004 @ 09:35 PM
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Originally posted by theron dunn
transparent antisemitism...
BARELY concealed anti jewish rhetoric.
antisemitism, or, probably more accurately, anti religion.
jewish hate,
antijewish terms
anti jewish propaganda.
neonazi anti jew rhetoric.

Let's see if you can respond to an allegation without mentioning any of the above terms. If you do that, and debate the issues presented here, let me know. Savy?



posted on Oct, 29 2004 @ 09:47 PM
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Unfortunately, the more you contribute to this thread, the more wedded your theories are to all the terms Theron has listed.

No one seems to want to discuss this apart from you. For myself, I was never discussing this to begin with.

Still, I have no right to make you stop.



posted on Oct, 29 2004 @ 09:52 PM
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Originally posted by twitchy

Originally posted by theron dunn
transparent antisemitism...
BARELY concealed anti jewish rhetoric.
antisemitism, or, probably more accurately, anti religion.
jewish hate,
antijewish terms
anti jewish propaganda.
neonazi anti jew rhetoric.

Let's see if you can respond to an allegation without mentioning any of the above terms. If you do that, and debate the issues presented here, let me know. Savy?


Oh, I understand, but do YOU? It is clear from your original post (the one that was deleted by the mods for being racist and inflamatory), and the content of THIS one, that I am right in my assessment. You can run, as George says, but you can't hide.

See, I posted all this, and showed what your real purpose is, without using any of those terms to describe you...



posted on Oct, 29 2004 @ 11:04 PM
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Originally posted by LTD602
Unfortunately, the more you contribute to this thread, the more wedded your theories are to all the terms Theron has listed.

Yeah, you and Theron do have amazing similarities in your view point. Fancy that
. Hey, you mean the incomplete article he quoted (apparently not reading them to make sure they didn't dispute even his own post), or the web pages he cut and paste without quoting or referencing?


Still, I have no right to make you stop.

Trying to were you? Yeah that seems to happen alot when somebody brings up the Kosher Food issue. You should read up on it sometime as to what happens to people in the media who mention it. If all I get is some angry rhetoric, I consider myself lucky.
At the risk of being mildy facetious and yet also kinda seirous here, let me quote myself here...

Originally posted by twitchy

Originally posted by theron dunn
transparent antisemitism...
BARELY concealed anti jewish rhetoric.
antisemitism, or, probably more accurately, anti religion.
jewish hate,
antijewish terms
anti jewish propaganda.
neonazi anti jew rhetoric.

Let's see if you can respond to an allegation without mentioning any of the above terms. If you do that, and debate the issues presented here, let me know. Savy?

And finally,

Originally posted by LTD602 For myself, I was never discussing this to begin with.

LOL You sure could have fooled me.
Take it easy then.



posted on Oct, 29 2004 @ 11:09 PM
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Brother Theron and I aren't the same person, either. We do have similar points of view though . . but we differ on political issues, which is just fine.



posted on Oct, 30 2004 @ 01:29 AM
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Back to the topic here,
Here's a few examples of your tatics at work...
www.google.com...

Do you like Coke or Pepsi?
Hey it don't matter, both of you pay them or be accused of anti-semitism.
www.snopes.com...
Is kosher quality about pig hooves, jewish meat laws,and deuteronomy, or is about money and control, like many fees are. If it's about meat, then whats this all about?

For a time Pepsi lost its kashrut (kosher) certificate because it was deemed to be promoting a culture that would corrupt the nation's youth through rock music concerts and advertisements featuring scantily-clad women.

Talk about the scandal? Well, you wouldn't want this to happen to you would you?


www.obv.org.uk...
Protesters recently staged an hour-long occupation of the magazine's offices, demanding that it print an apology for what they claimed was an anti-Semitic cover and articles....The accusations of anti-Semitism have come not only from the group that occupied Mr Wilby's offices, but also from the general secretary of the Labour Party, David Triesman....
The front cover of the magazine's edition of 14 January showed a gold Star of David impaling a Union Jack and was titled "A kosher conspiracy?" The collage on the cover is understood to have been supervised, and was certainly authorised, by the New Statesman's editor, Peter Wilby. An article by the journalist Dennis Sewell, and an accompanying one by John Pilger, looked at pro-Israel support in Britain and alleged Jewish influence.

10 Million dollars just in the settlement, not to mention subsequent fees afetrwards, for kosher Big Macs... More on Mcdonalds...


www.thetruthseeker.co.uk...
"This time the scam will affect many destitute American consumers who depend on a McDonald's hamburger and fries for nutrition. These consumers will surely pay more for their food now that the Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations and the rabbis associated with the Star-K symbol have been instrumental in forcing McDonald's to pay up $10 million dollars as part of a Cook County circuit court (Illinois) settlement ruled on May 20. The settlement, obtain on behalf of the rabbis and other groups, was litigated by a group of Jewish attorneys and decided by Jewish Judge Richard Seibel. What was Mc Donald's crime? They failed to divulge that their fries had a "beef" flavoring!"

WOW KosherFest!? I thought this was about quality, and this MUST READ one from a Jewish Web site...


www.jewishworldreview.com...
Kosher food it's not just for Jews anymore.
In fact, most consumers would probably be shocked to know that a good number of the products already in their pantries and refrigerators are actually certified kosher.
From Pepperidge Farms and Oreo cookies to Heinz baked beans, Lipton Soup mixes and Wonder Bread, the variety of products certified for use by the kosher consumer is expanding at a pretty torrid pace to address the needs of a growing market.
According to Menachem Lubinsky, co-producer of Kosherfest and president and CEO of Integrated Marketing & Communications in New York, the U.S. produces about $500 billion worth of packaged foods of which $170 billion is certified kosher. On the ingredient side, there's also about $500 billion of which $300 billion is certified kosher.

Wow that doesn't sound much like a small time operation on a limited product, nor does it sound like marketing to me. Starting to sound more like "antisemitic pretection money".

More on tactics...

www.thetruthseeker.co.uk...
Israel Shahak, ...professor of organic chemistry at Hebrew University, who had a scientist's respect for objective truth. He was also a concentration camp survivor, an Israeli army veteran and a campaigner for Arab human rights....
Shahak believes that Jews need to re-educate themselves about their history and religion. Jews are "a closed society" that uses "anti Semitism" to quash criticism, which is considered "hatred" or "self hatred."



www.thetruthseeker.co.uk...
Bishop Desmond Tutu of South Africa, who was awarded the 1984 Nobel Peace Prize, has candidly identified the reason: "The Israeli government is placed on a pedestal [in the US], and to criticize it is to be immediately dubbed anti-Semitic," he said. "People are scared in this country, to say wrong is wrong because the Jewish lobby is powerful -- very powerful."

Here is an example of what Jewish folks will say if you end the Kosher fees in your country..
www.factsofisrael.com... (note this is a jewish site)
I looked into it, they didn't ban Kosher foods, they stopped the racketeering, er I mean fees. You can still get Kosher foods in Hooland
It's a limited thing, we only charge this food comapnies... lol yeah...
New York City Water System not Kosher? Huh!? Never mind recovering from the largest terrorist attack in history, Pay Up NYC!


news.independent.co.uk...
On June 4, 2004 The Independent reported, "As home to Seinfeld , delis and the best bagels in the world, New York is indelibly linked to Jewish culture. But the Jews have made a shocking discovery: The city's water is not kosher."

Yeah pretty damn shocking.

www.thetruthseeker.co.uk...
Alexandre Mose, president of the Zionist Federation of France, was arrested and convicted, after having sworn out warrants because of numerous threats, that he had sent himself, in order to appear a "Jewish victim,"

This was a good article, wonder where it went? Wonder what one word he was talking about?
"How to shut up your critics with a single word"
by Robert Fisk, The Independent (UK), October 21, 2002"

Even Colleges have to pay up... note the word subsidize in here, wow I bet that really helps reduce the other 97% of the student's tuitions. Just one example out who knows how many universities...
www.dailynorthwestern.com...

Here's some other folks that weren't Kosher fans... John Updike? United Farm workers? Billy Graham? Mahatma Gandhi? Even J. R. Tolkien was questionable ... www.jewishtribalreview.org...
I have used my web signature for years, this one really got my attention...


Caught in this net for spreading anti-Jewish thoughts is also Margaret Mead

even Margaret Mead is an antisemitist eh.. yeah. Actually this made me kind of angry when i checked it out, but...Wow even Ariel Sharon?
Mary Robinson, former president of Ireland, former UN High Commissioner for Human Rights
U.S. Rep. Cynthia McKinney
And I guess now Twitchy too huh?
Consider this statement...


www.mljewish.org...
From: Mordechai Horowitz
Date: Fri Sep 5 6:38:29 US/Pacific 2003
Subject: Anti-Christian Bigotry
>The solution, the editorial goes on to say, is to challenge Gibson to
>show that he cares about the Jewish community by contributing to Jewish
>charitable causes and by fighting anti-semitism.
How would we feel if Christians accused Jews of being bigots, and
demanded we give charity to Christian charitable causes?
Comments like this make the entire issue look like a financial shakedown
by the organized Jewish community.


Here's a list of a JUST A FEW products that don't have anything to do with what kind of hooves a pig has or wether an animal was bled to death that still have to pay the "anti-semite protection money" fees adding to the billions of dollars these guys make.
www.ukar.org...
Even Kosher Gynecology?!!? Who subsidizes this?


www.interfaithfamily.com...
In praising the hospital, Lieberman did not mention its dirty little secret: Its fertility clinic discriminates against mixed couples. Alone among Israeli hospitals, Shaare Zedek refuses to perform in-vitro fertilization on a Christian woman if her partner is a Jew, or on a Jewish women with a gentile husband. If, for example, Al Gore's daughter Karenna and her husband, Drew Schiff, were to seek treatment, they'd be turned away. It is a policy the head of the Israeli Association of Gynecology has denounced as "awful" and "unethical."

But israel is our friend right? They wouldn't take money from us...


www.csmonitor.com...
Since 1973, Israel has cost the United States about $1.6 trillion. If divided by today's population, that is more than $5,700 per person.



Edit: fixed link
Edit: Repeated Link

[edit on 30-10-2004 by twitchy]

[edit on 30-10-2004 by twitchy]



posted on Oct, 30 2004 @ 11:08 AM
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And, of course, you just proved my point for me. Its not about a purported tax, its about attacking Jews.

Very sad, very sad.





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