Is This Better?

I must say I see Twitchy's point - Halal and Kosher endorsements do not ensure quality at all - they just specify the foodstuffs as religiously certified.
It is a backdoor way of racketeering cash for religion.

Unfortunately you can't say bad things even indirectly about Jews on the Internet or you'll be instantly branded anti-Semite and a "hate monger"
- even if the point is valid.

No, its a false lead, or a red herring. It is NOT a food tax. Claims that the Kosher stamp is a food tax is misleading at best. If it REALLY bothers you that much, DON'T BUY THE PRODUCTS. Good GOD, man!

You, and Twitchy don't seem to understand what Kosher is. To be certified Kosher, foods and products have to be prepared in stict accordance with Hebrew standards laid out, for instance, in Deuteronomy, and expanded upon in Jewish Law. Meat has to be slaughtered in a certain way, and prepared in a certain way... I won't bother you with the details, since it is clear you don't care.

A rabbi is required to oversee and certify that standards have been maintained and the process adhered to strictly. This is so the company can sell the foods to observant Jews and to folks (like me) that like the standards and what they mean to the purity of the foods. It is marketing, pure and simple.

So, if you don't want to pay for the services of a rabbi on the staff of the food company and companies that provide other products, DON'T BUT THEM...

But to claim that it is a Jewish tax is simply insane...

Actually I don't buy Kosher foods Theron, not much of a market for them here in Thailand - as I've pointed out the same is becoming true for Hahal.
If you buy a hamburger from McDonalds you will have to eat Halal meat, which means if you are a budhist farmer (the majority of people in S/E Asia) you are out of luck.
Try to have your own opinions rather than just sulking around looking for my posts so you can broadly blast me for having an opinion of any sort.
Also please stop quoting posts, this is a message thread, doing this sort of thing just makes them overly long and illegible, if they weren't padded out with all this childish nonsense they would only go on for a page or less.

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[edit on 27-10-2004 by LTD602]

In Canada we have a kosher foods tax exemption worth $500/year. This exemption can be claimed by everyone that uses the products on the list.

that is an interesting point, however, it is not relevant to twity's post that the K Kosher certification is a "Jewish tax"



Actually, i don't particularly care about you one way or the other, but when someone posts something, i use it as an example. You are NOT that important. And, my primary focus was Twitchy's statement about a purpoted tax...



Acutally, if I do NOT quote you, the reply doesn't make sense, as in this case, but thanks for caring about post length and all...

the Kosher tax is misleading. the Kosher stamp isnt.

My concern about the Kosher Tax came a few years ago. So, i actually called a few companies and asked em bout it.

The told me indeed, that Rabbis do come out to their plants a couple of time during the year while food is being made, and pay them,....hold onto your shorts....

100 dollars a trip! Thats 100 bucks folks. 100 bucks to inspect the making of product, which,. at the end of the year, is gonna end up generating MILLIONS.

the 100 bucks is more courtesy for taking up the Rabbi's time and to cover expenses to travel to the factory. Some factories might pay more, if they have to fly in a Rabbi from far away, if there are no local jewish communities.

But compare, lets say, you pay the plane ticket and accomidations for a Rabbi to come and inspect the factory, bless it, ect.

When you consider the revenues are in the millions of dollars, the rabbis fees arent even a drop in the bucket. if you are talking about how these fees might be passed onto customs, its a non issue. the cost would be like .000001 of a penny if you looked at it. Hell, companies spend more on that just getting federal inspectors approvals on facilities than they do rabbinical approval. So as far as an actual TAX, there is none. Whatever they pay the rabbi is probably an easy tax write off.

My complaint comes mainly from the fact that companies would want religous endorsement on their product, like, major national and international companies. This is based on my belief religon belongs behind closed doors and is a personal thing.

But relax, people, youre not getting charged out the ass so some jew can eat food based on his religon. the price hikes in food are comming from climate disasters, increased production costs, ect.

Good points, people, especially Skadi.

Well, there you have it. Interestingly enough, around 90% of this Kosher-tax argument comes from anti-semitic websites.

I hope this topic is over with. It's caused more harm than good.

[edit on 27-10-2004 by LTD602]

I don't know where this BS about blessing a factory for a hundred bucks comes from - we used to do Jewish Banquets at the hotel I worked at many years ago and the bill for "Koshering" the establishmnet just for one wedding or suchlike was enormous, like in excess of Au$10,000.00
They would have "Kosher" cleaners firstly come and scrub the living daylights out of all food preparation areas and impose all sorts of restrictions on who or what could be brought into them.
The craziest bit about it all was they wouldn't even cook anything in the ovens - they would just line them with tin foil to reheat food prepared in certified Kosher kitchens.
They would bring all their own cuttlery, plates and glasses etc...you almost wondered why they would bother in the first place.

Jews can be so bothersome, right NECROS? I'm so sorry they inconvenienced you so.

(note sarcasm.)

[edit on 28-10-2004 by LTD602]

Uh, necros? Sorry to pick on ya, bud, but what you describe is what MAKES it Kosher... cleanliness, preparation, storage... you can't store meat with milk for instance, or cook them together, or use the same utensils. The rules go on and on, and what you describe is not a tax, and is not paid to the rabbi, but to folks that do the work...

Stay with us, I know this may be moving a little fast for you, but this again, has NOTHING to do with a Jewish Tax... and it was PAID FOR by the folks renting the hall anyway...

NECROS, Twtichy, et al.

In this thread, I''m sensing an ENORMOUS disrespect for Jewish tradition. "Money" is beside the point., incidentally.

No, my brother, the POINT is to denigrate Jews... note necros earlier comment about how you cannot say anything bad about jews on the internet without being called a nazi...

Well, WHY would you WANT to say/write bad things about Jews?

Duhhhh

Can you guys not try to turn this into an anti-semitic thing here, it's not. Alot of people on boards have been to known to post on a shades account to start an argument to get a thread closed, so let's stay on target here shall we? This isn't antisemitic, it's a discussion, an examination of what I believe to be a clear violation of church and state by an organization that in it's own words is "of profit making concern". It ain't no little blessing here, it's billions.


10,000 bucks is pretty inconvienent for a wedding I'd say heck most churches wouldn't charge you that for renting the entire facility you get married in, especially since not everybody there was jewish probably. Here's a guy that must do a lot of weddings.
Hey wonder if he does seminars on how to do this? (yup). Can I go to one? (nope)
Does this look like a blessing to you? Here's a site by one of the inspectors, explains the incredible process they administer... look like nice guys don't they...
www.ok.org...
if you read this site, he really thought he had them for a minute on that platic wrap eh?

But we openly label our products, It isnt a secret... well, no its not a secret but uh....

'Well just don't buy the ones with the label, they are clearly marked'... 'Just settle for lesser quality products'... Hey thanks, but are they clearly labeled so I can make sure I don't pay extra for religous quality Window Cleaner? Clearly Labeled?

But we only charge them once a year, it isn't 'multi-level'...


It's just a few food companies... Yeah like Mcdonalds?

What happens if they don't pay it once approached?

Hmmmm, you'd hate to be known as anti-smeitic. Of course you pay it. But not only do you have to pay it, your suppliers have to pay it, your packaging guys have to pay it, products and services which have nothing to do with food, fees to inspect Kosher Bleach?
What If I liked to use Tide Detergent, but believed Allah and Dancing Camels were to devour my soul in the after life or something, and didn't want my prices higher because it was Kosher.

If I were a major food conglomerate getting charged at every level of our production for a religous institution's preference say for Twitchy Brand toliet bowl cleaner, I might at some point be tempted to ask, "We have to pay to reach Jewish religous standards, when they only represent 3% of our market?" Then I would angrily exclaim..."and this is federally legislated!??" How do you get that that it isn't a tax? Last I heard, fee was a synonym of the word tax, and that it was illegal to legislate much of anything in regards to a religous organization.
Can you afford to have a JB (for Joe Blow)printed on a major coporations label's? Probably not, but while most other organizations that can, generally have to pay or barter for this assosciation (i.e. good housekeeping seal). The Jewish Kosher Guys run around getting paid to do it.
Let's say some Italian guy named Antonio Kickyerarseio and a his buddies pulled up to your place of business and told you they were going to charge you some money to look around your place every year and made sure it looked good and catholic-ish enough to let you stay open without being 'publicly' boycotted and known 'publicly' as a catholic hater?
There are words for that kind of operation, one of them is "racket". Who says so? Wella lot of folks do, apparently even some Rabbi's.


It's not some kind of monopoly... no they can compete... With Each Other!


Well how come it isn't on the largely Jewish controlled media? Do i really have to answer that one? Well ok I will...

Maybe that has something to do with it eh?
But only a few products carry this certification? before you swallow that one, Have you every really looked? They even made the US postage stamp Kosher....


Now it is 20 something thousand, most of them large coporations paying multi level religous fees not including like was stated earlier, small operations for weddings other services. Billions.
Wow even the pet food?!!

What a blessing!

I always try to get both sides of the story, lets see what the other guys are saying...
www.radioislam.org...

But it keeps from having to eat pork! It's about obscure meat laws from Deuteronomy! Yeah....

It's not that big of a deal! No?

It's not federally legislated! Uh yes it is...

here's a site by one of the inspectors, explains the incredible process they administer... look like nice guys don't they... if you read this site, he really thought he had them for a minute on that platic wrap eh?
www.ok.org...

Another interesting site...
www.nastrond.net...

There's nobody saying this violates any rights.... No? But there is legal precedent that it violates the rights of even prisoners who of course have few other rights. More legal cases are widely known as well if you care for more examples of this being claimed as violations of something let me know.

Is it fairly distributed or did the precednet stand? Of course not...

Good for the goose, good for the gander right? Wrong...

Yup, I could have predicted this... You don't like paying our fees? Then you are a jew hater... ad nauseum...

LOL no money is the point. Have you read the thread or are you jkisy clsoing your eyes and chanting "Jew Hater". Disrespecting?!?! What's disrepsectful? Dude a gallon of milk is four dollars right now, adn this is part of the reason. I am so sick of this anti-semite garbage. Can you not come up with a better defense of this practice than that? I'm sensing an ENORMOUS racketeering scam, and don't give a flip doodley who is doing it, jews, catholics, or voodoo priests, you don't federally mandate religous fees on anything, unless of course you don't want to be labeled anti-semitic. You can't say word one about Kosher without being labled anti-semite? Why is that? If there was a T on your gorceries for a fee your food company paid for Twitchyism, would you be happy with it? Are you a twitchy hater? Is everybody out to get the Jews? Or are some people tired of paying a fee on their grocery bills because the jews think that they are? 97% of the population of the US is paying fees to 3% because we are all out to get them... yeah that makes sense.

The bizarre claim by right wing extremists that kosher certification
markings on food labels ("U," "K," etc.) cost consumers extra money and
represent, in effect, a "kosher tax" to make rabbis rich, is a striking
example of the propaganda used by anti-Semites to trick the uninformed
into accepting conspiracy charges and stereotypes about Jews.

Other anti-Semitic allegations regarding kosher designation on foods
include charges that "the kosher food racket" benefits Jewish
organizations while only a small segment of the American population
desires such markings, and that even the meanings of the labels are
guarded secrets deliberately kept from non-Jews to trick them into paying
the "kosher tax."

The Facts

Attacks on the labeling of food with the symbols for _kashruth_
(traditional Jewish dietary laws) have been a standard ploy of anti-Jewish
bigots in the U.S. for decades. Such symbols as [encircled U], emblem of
the Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations (UOJC), among others, confirm
that products are kosher -- i.e., that foods and production processes have
been inspected by competent rabbis from the respective organizations and
found to be in compliance with Jewish dietary law.

The cost to the consumer for this service is a miniscule fraction of the
total production overhead; it is so negligible in practical terms as to be
virtually non-existent. A May 18, 1975 New York _Times_ article reported
that the cost to General Foods' "Bird's Eye" Unit, for example, is 6.5
millionths (.0000065) of a cent per item. Furthermore, a representative of
the Heinz Company has said that the per item cost is "so small we can't
even calculate it," and that such labeling actually makes products less
costly by increasing the market for them.

Indeed, according to marketing manager Steven Zamichow, quoted in the
Washington _Post_, "Entenmann's Inc. received kosher certification in 1981
and sales of [its] baked goods 'increased substantially.'" Visits to the
Entenmann's plant, from a "mashgiach," or kashruth inspector, are provided
by the Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of America. The UOJC is one
of several groups that maintain such a kosher inspection service,
certifying foods and related products to be in compliance with Jewish
dietary laws through all phases of production. The profit from these
products goes, of course, to the companies that manufacture them and the
stores that sell them, not to "the Jews."*


Enough with this topic. No one cares about it except you. Regardless of what you think, you're coming off looking like an anti-semite. The more you claim you are not, the deeper you get into it.

Go ahead and keep posting, if that's what you want. Up tp you. I think, however that it would be far more useful to write your Member of Parliament and take action instead of posting novels ad nauseum.

Ok, lets focus here. there seem to be three issues here:

1) PRIVATE companies selling food that is certified Kosher
2) The Cost or additional cost of those fooks compared to non koasher foods
3) A church/state separation.

So lets deal with the first issue. In America, and I am sure it is similar in other countries with a free or semi free economy, a company produces a product for a market, and offers it at a fair price, or, a company, offering a product, and SEEING a market share available, changes its products to include that share.

Now, being a free market, the product will either be purchsed and succeed (See Proctor and Gamble or Snapple) or will fail (no example)... In this case, if you do not like Kosher foods or Kosher products, being a free market, do not buy them. You can therefore wield the mighty strength of your dollar to hurt them... do not buy their products.

2) the second issue is the additional cost. So, if you eat or live Kosher, and need the product to maintain your religious purity, you will pay WHATEVER it takes to get what you think you need. More, if the producers of the products want their product to sell, they must keep the price reasonably close to the market for similar products. Again, see #1. If you feel the price is too high for what you are getting, DON'T, for g-d's sake, buy it.

3) Church state separation. Look you need to read the constitution. The constitution says the State shall make no law... establishing a religion. It does not say anything about supporting product labeling or establishing standards. Just like the standards for "Light" beer, "Low calorie", "Diet" etc., they established standards for companies that wish to label their products as "Kosher", which seems to be a consumer protection issue, and not one of the establishment of a religion by the state.

Your point noted that the company was establishing a religion. Well, this is incorrect, they are marketing TO a market segment, which is a religious one, and even if they WERE establishing a religion, that is not illegal. There are HUNDREDS of religions in America, and all of them can claim a tax exempt status.

You want to rail about something that should be illegal? Take on the tax exemption for religious groups and "charities". Make them all pay taxes on the income they keep after expenses (in a charities case, giving away the money would be a legal expense), and eliminate the tax deducation a taxpayer can take for giving money to any charity.

Allowing anyone to deduct from their tax burden for giving money to any religion based charity or church IS the state assisting the church...

The rest of your argument is spurrious, and is plainly antisemetic...

Given the rapidity of your replies, I must assmume that you guys didn't check out line one of any of my sources. Let's put aside the broad concepts and your claims of anti-semitism here, and let me repeat some simple concepts to you from my prior posts since you took so much time to check out the sources before replying...
Billions of dollars
State Mandated/Regulated
Religous Multi-level Fees
Non-Jewish Consumers
High Food Costs
Anti-semitic Paranoia
Care to debunk any facts presented here rather than speaking in broad terminology that you think applies to everyone? I'm not anti-semitic, I am anti-getting-screwed on my grocery bill.

I notice here you quote the same source I do, but you fail to include the rest of it.. LOL That's what you get for posting a reply before you read mine. Prepared statements aren't all that are they? next time read the post before you reply

I notice here you quote the same source I do, but you fail to include the rest of it.. LOL That's what you get for posting a reply before you read mine. Prepared statements aren't all that are they? next time read the post before you reply