Puma Punka is irrefutable evidence of extraterrestrials

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posted on Dec, 30 2012 @ 08:32 PM
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Originally posted by Soylent Green Is People
As others have said above, the peoples of Puma Punku were Homo Sapiens -- just like us. That means they were EQUALLY as intelligent as us (in general)...

The Romans were able to make precisely smooth stones. So did the Greeks and Medieval people. None of them had modern power tools...

In the video below is a guy who figured out a technique for moving 16 ton stones all by himself without modern equipment...

I've never understood the closed minded approach to these wonders of the ancient world. Why are people so quick to dismiss the fact that ancient man was just as intelligent as we are, and could have figured out some very ingenious techniques for constructing things in stone. Those techniques could have easily been lost to time.

Intelligent technology requires an entire intelligent society. There are certain feats that absolutely cannot be achieved without a sustained community effort of highly intelligent people STANDING ON THE SHOULDERS of other intelligent people, all driven by some FUNDAMENTAL HUMAN NEED like competition in capitalism. Just look at microchip advancement or the automobile. Religious fervor, as a motivator, pales in comparison. No chance whatsoever. And there absolutely has to be equally extraordinary evidence of associated advancements in politics, communications, recording technology, etc. There were none!

Just one small village of super clever stone masons is not plausible — it's just another theory, but much much weaker.

The Romans certainly left evidence of decent civil engineering — but hardly enough to scratch the surface of something like Pumapunku. We can't even replicate Pumapunku today!

Any rational person with good reasoning skills knows all this.

So each reader/viewer/student/skeptic will have to weigh the evidence — or the VALIDITY of opposing perspectives — for themselves and decide for themselves. One clue right off the bat are the type of experts involved. If it's so easy to debunk, why aren't the debunkers all hailing from esteemed institutions like Harvard University, NASA, etc.?

Even looking at just these trivial ATS forums, it should be revealing how some members are so zealous in jumping on to support each other and attacking opposing views.
edit on 30-12-2012 by FormerSkeptic because: (no reason given)




posted on Dec, 30 2012 @ 08:49 PM
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reply to post by FormerSkeptic
 


When modern machinist say that the natives of PP could not have shaped these blocks, people like Soybean use the excuse that the natives could have been smarter than we think. But when those same natives say their makers came out of the sky, people like Soybean call the natives liars.

Their ego will only allow for humans to move massive blocks, even when their commen sense tells them it was not possible. Better to believe in some magic missing answer than to believe in the natives own answer ~ gods from the sky.



posted on Dec, 30 2012 @ 09:59 PM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Dec, 30 2012 @ 10:06 PM
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Originally posted by Philodemus
reply to post by FormerSkeptic
 


Irrefutable, eh? Then explain this;

I refute it.


Ahhhh yes.

You're the perfect example of a debunker! Thank you!



posted on Dec, 30 2012 @ 10:28 PM
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reply to post by FormerSkeptic
 


One small village?

Try several hundred thousand people, maybe as many as 500,000 at the areas peak.

As with most of these ancient alien theories, the supporters of it must downplay the ingenuity of people for their theory to hold any water.

You see, along with precision stone masonry, the Tiwanaku people also built vast irrigation systems, including canals and sewerage systems, so clearly their engineering capabilities were a lot more vast than you give them credit for.

Advances in human engineering is very linear, you'd expect a bump somewhere along the line if advanced aliens built something wouldn't you?

"We'll build these temples for you, but we'll only use the materials that are available to you, we won't show you how to make steel or glass or anything like that because in a thousand years time we want to keep how you built everything ambiguous, despite the fact we're here now building stuff for you"

It just doesn't add up when you look at it that way.

And as for why modern humans don't (or can't as you think) do things like that now? Well they do, you just don't see it as much and we've moved onto lighter, stronger materials.

Now days we build things like the Millau Viaduct and the Channel-Tunnel. I guess in a thousand years, there'll be a group of people believing they were made by aliens too.



posted on Dec, 30 2012 @ 11:00 PM
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Originally posted by spiritualarchitect
reply to post by FormerSkeptic
 


When modern machinist say that the natives of PP could not have shaped these blocks, people like Soybean use the excuse that the natives could have been smarter than we think. But when those same natives say their makers came out of the sky, people like Soybean call the natives liars.

Their ego will only allow for humans to move massive blocks, even when their commen sense tells them it was not possible. Better to believe in some magic missing answer than to believe in the natives own answer ~ gods from the sky.


It's possible TODAY to move huge blocks without modern power equipment. Why would it have been impossible then? Why would it be different? Common sense tells me that if a person today can figure out a way to move massive blocks without power equipment (and people HAVE figured it out), then why not a person 1500 years ago?


Plus, I didn't say they were necessarily "smarter than we think". However, I do feel that they were smarter than some people think...

...Some people seem to think that these ancient peoples were somehow and inferior species. They were not an inferior species; they were us and we are them. We are the same species, and that means we are anatomically identical (generally speaking), and they possessed the same brains we posses -- which makes them EQUALLY as intelligent as we are.

So, yeah -- I suppose they ARE smarter than some people give them credit for. But those "some people" are just ignorant to the facts.

I'm not sure why there are some who want to treat these ancient peoples as if they were unintelligent brutes. They were human; they were intelligent. They were capable of great things just like their European and Chinese counterparts that had done (and were still doing) great things by the time.


edit on 12/30/2012 by Soylent Green Is People because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 30 2012 @ 11:55 PM
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just because people can't explain something, they assume someone/something else must have done it


And if you can't explain how it was done, then how can you say you know definitely that there was no alien involvement??

I personally can't stand the arrogance and condescension of people who are against the ancient alien theory.



posted on Dec, 31 2012 @ 12:30 AM
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Originally posted by Chadwickus
reply to post by FormerSkeptic
 


One small village?

Try several hundred thousand people, maybe as many as 500,000 at the areas peak.

As with most of these ancient alien theories, the supporters of it must downplay the ingenuity of people for their theory to hold any water.

You see, along with precision stone masonry, the Tiwanaku people also built vast irrigation systems, including canals and sewerage systems, so clearly their engineering capabilities were a lot more vast than you give them credit for.

Advances in human engineering is very linear, you'd expect a bump somewhere along the line if advanced aliens built something wouldn't you?

"We'll build these temples for you, but we'll only use the materials that are available to you, we won't show you how to make steel or glass or anything like that because in a thousand years time we want to keep how you built everything ambiguous, despite the fact we're here now building stuff for you"

It just doesn't add up when you look at it that way.

And as for why modern humans don't (or can't as you think) do things like that now? Well they do, you just don't see it as much and we've moved onto lighter, stronger materials.

Now days we build things like the Millau Viaduct and the Channel-Tunnel. I guess in a thousand years, there'll be a group of people believing they were made by aliens too.




500,000 super clever masons (women and children, too?) would be fantastic indeed. All working on gigantic, squarish, machine-looking blocks, hauled from where? How? Uphill haul by elephants? 130 tons each trip to 12,000ft elevation? Vast irrigation systems are easy. There has to be a predominance of similar keyway-locking stone architecture and engineering throughout the ancient ruins. None was found, except for loot from Pumapunku.

And surely it has to take careful planning and coordination, no?

So it's dated circa 1,000 AD., well after written language but there's no written records whatsoever? Yet the gigantic blocks are near identical? Those clever masons must have some sharp eye!

Still doesn't add up when you look at it straight way again.
edit on 31-12-2012 by FormerSkeptic because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 31 2012 @ 01:51 AM
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Originally posted by BrokenAngelWings33

Originally posted by JayinAR
I entertain the Ancient Astronaut theory. That being said, Puma Punku is not irrefutable evidence. I mean, you could literally come up with ten other explanations that are just as likely.


Okay...what are they...I am curious to know 10 other ways these 300 ton stones could be lifted on top of 600 ton stones...carved by chisel and stone hammers...with laser guided precision...quarried from an area no where near where they are used...I'm waiting....now did Ancient Aliens build them, not sure, but one thing I am certain of they were not built by the species alive during the time they were supposed to be built.


Still waiting...where is the 10 possible other ways?



posted on Dec, 31 2012 @ 02:12 AM
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reply to post by ImpactoR
 


Gave you a star because of the link and the willingness to attempt to defend the other side, the truth may be somewhere in the middle but I do not agree with the equality of quality and the motivations behind the works.

The show Ancient Aliens is near trash in my book, I do like it because of the characters, the relevance of some topics and even some theories to a point, if one does not swallow it as an attempt of being objective or even informative. Most of the participants are book authors covering the subject, the show is over the top on the dramatics and some of the claims are even made in an absurd context than doesn't require much brightness be detected. It is a commercial product.

On the other hand the response of the debunking attempt is considerably more down to Earth, it is direct and succinct, the only bit I personally disliked is the later part where the religious views of the "presenter" leaks into the presentation. I found it very balanced as if you look at the site they have provided sources for their observations. The best thing is that it is given free to all, and can't be said to be attempting to sell any product or ideology.



posted on Dec, 31 2012 @ 02:15 AM
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reply to post by FormerSkeptic
 


Thank you so much for posting this! This is the kind of post that makes ATS great!

I haven't finished watching the video yet, but I wanted to let you know I'm getting comfortable, getting some snacks, and turning my phone off for the next 40 minutes!



posted on Dec, 31 2012 @ 02:24 AM
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Originally posted by misse2miss
Some people say that we have dorment dna that could be responsible for things like telekinesis. Also some say it involves the pineal gland and learning how to use your thrid eye. It is all very interesting!


Some people say that the universe rides on the back of a giant squid called Trevor...

IRM



posted on Dec, 31 2012 @ 02:53 AM
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I'd like to ask the people who claim that human technology was simply not capable of achieving the things of the past, just how they build the personal computer they're using. How much gold did they use, how much copper etc.

Because obviously they're so much more capable than human kind of ancient history, they can build these things out of thin air.

We are so used to everything being done for us. Hell, you kids have even ruined hands on computing with your desktops and your fancy screens. DOS/Console work ... wizardry..

You kids think that without electricity the sun stops shining.

But the simple fact is, it's not that we were really dumb back then and couldn't make a a sand castle in the desert, it's that you can't imagine human kind doing anything without an ipod glued to your hand.

In total the common level of ability has become so useless and reliant on easily breakable things, that we're probably the most vulnerable than we've ever been as a species.

Water doesn't fall from the sky any more. It's drips from a tap. Air doesn't blow in the sky, it's fed into your manufactured cave by a machine that you couldn't fix if your life depended on it.

Humans are currently so dumb that ALIENS is the answer to everything.

Yes, poor humanity.. it's not intelligence we've lost... Or knowledge.. It's common sense.



posted on Dec, 31 2012 @ 03:30 AM
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Originally posted by Chadwickus
reply to post by FormerSkeptic
 


"We'll build these temples for you, but we'll only use the materials that are available to you, we won't show you how to make steel or glass or anything like that because in a thousand years time we want to keep how you built everything ambiguous, despite the fact we're here now building stuff for you"

It just doesn't add up when you look at it that way.



My thoughts exactly. If aliens came to earth their technology has to be more advanced than ours today. You know ours that includes plastics, computers, graphene, 3d printers etc etc. And yet those aliens who have intervened in human history (ie no Star Trek style prime directive stopping them) have limited their intervention into using STONE..........Sheeeeesh come on get real folks.

If Pumu Punku was an Alien landing site (one of the theories) surely the aliens would have constructed a "Terminal Building" with far more sophisticated technology. DUH



posted on Dec, 31 2012 @ 05:39 AM
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While the feat of constructing the site of Puma Punku is amazing enough in itself. I don't automatically yield that it was just impossible for us humans to do it ourselves. There's a lost knowledge that we haven't discovered yet. However, the part of the AA theory that I find more evidence for extraterrestrial intervention is through ancient myths/religions/beliefs and the art depicting these "gods"...You just have to sift through it a lot.

I guess saying "We don't know, therefore aliens" is the equivalent to "We don't know, therefore God"...and that's how religion came along.



posted on Dec, 31 2012 @ 09:55 AM
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The Romans and Greeks built great buildings hundreds of years BEFORE Puma Punku. One reason we khow how they bult those things is that the history of ancient Europe was better preserved.

The ancient American people from 1500 years ago who built Pumu Punku could have certainly figured out the same kinds of engineering techniques used by the Greeks and Romans, but those techniques could have been lost to history -- due to conquest and time. I wonder how much knowledge was destroyed/trampled upon when the Spanish conquistadors arrived in the Americas?

It may be true that European civilization collapsed during the dark ages, and much of the knowledge of the Ancient Greeks, Romans, etc could have also been lost to time. However, in the case of the Dark ages there was one institution which remained, keeping that knowledge and cataloging that knowledge -- the Church.

The Catholic Church during the middle ages was far from perfect, and had many faults, but one thing they DID do right was become a library of knowledge from ancient Rome (and the Romans were already a library of knowledge from the Greeks). The knowledge the church held was one reason the renaissance AFTER the dark ages knew so much about the ancient world BEFORE the dark ages -- because the monks wrote it all down.

The history of European civilization (and, more relevant to this thread, the history of their engineering knowledge) was first written down by the Greeks, and then (luckily) preserved by the Romans who wanted to emulate the Greeks in some ways, and (luckily agin) by the Catholic Church who had monks who, through the dark ages, again preserved the knowledge of the Romans and Greeks....

...So there is a paper trail leading back to the ancient Greeks (the Chinese also wrote a lot down).




THAT'S why we know how the Greeks and Romans built great structures -- and it may be the reason we DON'T know how the ancient Americans did it. As time passed and conquests occurred in the Ancient Americas, there may have not been anyone keeping records of their engineering knowledge. The ancient Americans may not have been a cohesive enough group (probably due to the rugged geography) to have a single storehouse of knowledge -- libraries of their knowledge that would have survived until today.

I don't really get the logical leap some are making from "we don't know how they did it" to "so, it must have been aliens". The Greeks and Romans were building the same sort of things even before Puma Punku, and nobody is questioning how THEY did it, mainly because it was written down how they did it.

If the Ancient Americans had detailed written history of their engineering techniques, then perhaps that history was lost to time and conquest.

...However, just because we don't have records, does that mean it "had to have been aliens"?



posted on Dec, 31 2012 @ 10:36 AM
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Phillip Coppens passed away December 30, 2012. He should be applauded for at least having an open mind and trying to find viability in the stories the ancients left us. Never once did he claim their stories to be true, he only wished to show both sides of the coin.

This is what Ancient Aliens is all about. How viable were the accounts of Ancients stories, what was mysterious about some sites and how does it relate to the stories told, etc...

These shows are meant to be heard with an open mind and unbiased view. They often make claims, they say words like "...but what if..." and "..maybe they mean to say..." which at that point should signal to the viewer this is pure hypothesis at that point. However they will give you the facts of the matter right off the bat and also give you the "hey that's weird and how does this relate to aliens" view which again must be viewed with an open mind, not as factual evidence but as hypothesis.

These days people have a hard time telling the difference when a scientist is speaking of facts and when he is hypothesizing about facts presented that support a story they have conjured up or have heard/read somewhere.

Then people come to forums like this and debate whether the show deserve any attention at all because some guy did a video refuting the shows "evidence" but it turns out the Refuter's logic is inaccurate and misleading and leaves out some very important details. Those who watched the video should critique the evidence and story presented and see that this is a crusade against a show that is attempting to give us another view besides one that supports the bible's religious views.

Now for me, whether Aliens were here or not is not what I am after. It's the truth. Which means accepting all evidence in order to make a more complete story. Not selectively excluding evidence and theories because "it doesn't feel right".

There is evidence of unearthly intervention in human history, so much so it's hard to say it never happened. But not enough to say it didn't either. To take one side or another is to be biased. We could be completely wrong on both counts, but for now, we can't know for sure. Time has eroded our means to prove the theories and stories. It does not make it untrue though. People don't always lie, people's who leave histories don't always embellish and are not always crazy. With so much evidence one must consider the possibilities. Otherwise you serve no good purpose in the debate.
edit on 31-12-2012 by TheCanuckian because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 31 2012 @ 11:10 AM
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Originally posted by TheCanuckian
...These shows are meant to be heard with an open mind and unbiased view...


That's true, but having an open mind is a two-way street. A person who says "we don't know how Puma Punku was built, so it MUST have been aliens" is definitely speak with a closed mind. An open-minded person would be able to understand that if ancient Europeans were able to build great things in stone without the use of power too;s (or aliens), then maybe so could ancient Americans.

I just don't understand the closed mind who cannot fathom that ancient Americans have the same brains we have and thus be equally intelligent as we are. They had the mental tools to figure things out, just the the ancient Europeans figured things out. Maybe they figured out how to move big stones.

Yeah -- I suppose it is "possible" that aliens helped them, but that opens up a whole other issue: If it was aliens, then why are the buildings in the Tiwanaku site (the location of Puma Punku) still basically very crude from a structural design standpoint? Why still use basic "post and lintel" construction. Granted, the stones were big and smooth, and the workmanship is beautiful, but basic building design is still very ancient. Why not (at the very least) help them build with arches -- such as the way the Romans did 500+ years BEFORE the people who built the Tiwanaku site.

I can't prove there were no ancient astronauts. However, Puma Punku is NOT proof (i.e., the OP's "Irrefutable evidence") of ancient astronauts, either...

...To say that the Pre-Columbian Americans could not possibly build these things themselves is certainly closed-minded thinking.


edit on 12/31/2012 by Soylent Green Is People because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 31 2012 @ 11:43 AM
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We are talking about one of the oldest building sites on Earth. Puma and the surrounding buildings on that end of the lake have been astronomically linked to a building date of 15,000 BCE. Way before the Romans came to town.

We have no evidence what so ever that the natives could have built these things. And the natives say that the builders came out of the sky. This is an ancient headline across the globe.

THEY CAME OUT OF THE SKY

It is easier to believe the natives than to give them super powers, which is what you want to do just because you do not want to believe aliens could have been here before.



posted on Dec, 31 2012 @ 11:55 AM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 





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