Immigration and gun violence top president's post-fiscal cliff agenda

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posted on Dec, 30 2012 @ 01:21 PM
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"I've said that fixing our broken immigration system is a top priority," he said. "I will introduce legislation in the first year to get that done. I think we have talked about it long enough."
And in the aftermath of December's deadly elementary school shooting in Newtown, Conn., the president vowed to put his "full weight" behind the gun violence recommendations he asked Vice President Joe Biden to generate.

"Will there be resistance? Absolutely there will be resistance," the president told NBC's David Gregory. "And the question then becomes whether we are actually shook up enough by what happened here that it does not just become another one of these routine episodes where it gets a lot of attention for a couple of weeks and then it drifts away. It certainly won't feel like that to me. This is something that was the worst day of my presidency. And it's not something that I want to see repeated."

nbcpolitics.nbcnews.com...

Boiling a Frog

If you drop a frog in a pot of boiling water, it will of course frantically try to jump out. But if you place it gently in a pot of tepid water and turn the heat on low, it will float there quite placidly. As the water gradually heats up, the frog will sink into a tranquil stupor, exactly like one of us in a hot bath, and before long, with a smile on its face, it will unresistingly allow itself to be boiled to death.
Snopes.com says this is not true for frogs, but metaphorically it seems to be true for humans.
www.snopes.com...

First a brief bit of history.
During World War I, Congress passed the Espionage Act of 1917 and the Sedition Act of 1918. The laws imposed fines, jail sentences, or both for interfering with the draft, obstructing the sale of war bonds, or saying anything disloyal, profane, or abusive about the government or the war effort.(1st Amendment) These laws, upheld by the Supreme Court, resulted in 6,000 arrests and 1,500 convictions for antiwar activities. The laws targeted people on the left, such as Socialist leader Eugene V. Debs, who was imprisoned, and Emma Goldman, who was jailed and deported. The arrests of 1917 reflected wartime concerns about dissent as well as opposition toward the Russian Revolution of 1917.

The 1938 congressional resolution creating the House Un-American Activities Committee (HUAC) authorized the committee to investigate the extent, the character, and the objects of un-American propaganda within the United States. Created on a temporary basis in 1938 to monitor the activities of foreign agents, it was made a standing committee of the House in 1945.

The HUAC became less active in the 1960s; its name was changed to the Committee on Internal Security in 1969, and it was abolished in 1975. Essentially this department was resurrected in 2001 as the Office of Homeland Security.

I have broken this down by Amendment to see what rights we actually have left.
I find that the biggest offenders to the Constitution are the USA PATRIOT Act and the NDAA. This is not comprehensive, as there are simply too many Congressional Acts and Executive Orders to list them all and to break them all down to the individual Amendments that they affect.

The Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act, the RICO Act or simply RICO PDF
www.justice.gov...

The PATRIOT Act PDF
www.gpo.gov...
The official title of the USA PATRIOT Act is "Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism (USA PATRIOT) Act of 2001."

National Defense Authorization Act of 2012 NDAA PDF
www.lawfareblog.com...

First ten Amendments to the U.S. Constitution
Excerpts are from the following References.
edp.org...
rense.com...

Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.


On 17 April 1990, the Supreme Court ruled that Native Americans do not have a Constitutional right to use peyote during their religious ceremonies.

Claiming that radio frequencies are a limited resource, the government tells broadcasters what to say (such as news and public and local service programming) and what not to say. This includes prohibitions on obscenity, as defined by the Federal Communications Commission (FCC).

The right to assemble peaceably is no longer free—you have to get a permit.

House Resolution 4079, the National Drug and Crime Emergency Act, tries to modify the right to habeas corpus. It sets time limits on the right of people in custody to petition for redress and also limits the courts in which such an appeal may be heard. And on 5 March 1990, the Supreme Court limited the ability of state prison inmates to obtain Federal court review of their convictions and sentences. By ruling that prisoners cannot make appeals based on favorable court rulings issued in other cases since their own convictions, the Supreme Court permitted states to execute people even though their death sentences would not be permitted today in light of subsequent rulings. If a state imposed a death sentence in "good faith," but it turns out the state was mistaken, the Supreme Court has given the okay to refusing to hear the prisoner's petition for redress of grievances. The defendant will be killed even though the state made a mistake.


Amendment II
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a Free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

This amendment is so often challenged that the movement has its own name: Gun Control.
It is no longer a Right; you have to get a permit.

Amendment III
No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.

This amendment is fairly clean so far.

Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


The RICO law is making a mockery of the right to be secure from seizure.
The NDAA violates the Protection from unreasonable search and seizure.
People under inquiry by the NDAA are tried under a military tribunal instead of a judicial court.

The Patriot Act rips this amendment right out of the constitution. The government can do warrantless searches without even informing the property owner they were there. No probable cause needs to be proved, no oath taken, and no limit to what can be searched or seized.

Amendment V
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

The RICO law again violates property rights.
There is NO due process under the Patriot Act.
NDAA also eliminates the safeguards from double jeopardy and self-incrimination.

Amendment VI
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defense.

NDAA violates Trial by jury and rights of the accused; Confrontation Clause, speedy trial, public trial, right to counsel

Amendment VII
In Suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any Court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.

Under the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, failure to demand a trial by jury in time constitutes a waiver of the right.

Amendment VIII
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

Amendment IX
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.


The right to travel, including travel abroad across borders in either direction and travel within the country is considered fundamental. The Federal government limits travel to Cuba and other countries, and states establish roadblocks to question and examine citizens. Many states have what are known as Stop and Identify laws.

Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.


Today, this protection has eroded. The Federal government exercises much power through purse strings, by taking money from the people and corporations within the states and refusing to return it unless states conform to Federal rules. By controlling money, the Federal government coerces obedience from the states in setting speed limits, defining crimes, and setting criminal sentences and penalties. In 1984, Reagan signed a law ordering millions of dollars withheld from states not raising their drinking age to 21.


The NDAA attempts to justify abridging the bill of rights on the theory that rights are suspended in a time of war, and the entire Unites States is a battlefield in the War on Terror.

The NDAA negates fundamental American values. The language grants presidents extra-judicial powers, bypassing constitutional checks and balances, in effect declaring Martial Law in the U.S. and its territories.
Regardless of whether or not these laws are interpreted as applying to U.S. citizens, by specifically targeting foreign nationals, the NDAA violates the “equal protection” clause of the 14th Amendment, which guarantees that all people be treated the same under the law. Therefore, this law is unconstitutional.

Repeatedly since 1917 and especially since 2001 with the Patriot Act, the Authorization for Use of Military Force (AUMF), and now the NDAA of 2012 our Federal Public Servants have eroded, piece by piece, many of our constitutional rights. It is up to the American people to stop this unrestrained growth of the Federal Government.
Americans could begin by actively and vocally dissenting against laws that violate their Constitutional rights. Passive Resistance, Marches, are a few ways writing to your Representatives, Congress and Governors are others.




posted on Dec, 30 2012 @ 01:47 PM
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That is quite a bit of work you have put up here.

I agree that immigration needs reform. We need to close our borders, and end illegal immigration, which is morphing into modern day slavery.

As to these killing sprees, if something can be done, it should be done, but not if it means restricting our right to bear arms. That wouldn't solve anything. I afraid you are right, any attempts to stop nutcases from doing these terrible things, would require too much restriction on our liberties. The solution would be worse than the problem.

Probably the only realistic solution to these rampage killings is to start taking mental health issues a lot more seriously. Too many people with legitimate mental health issues, birth defects, diseases, and brain injuries that impair their ability to reason, should be given the same level of sympathy as cancer victims. Sadly in our society, we have yet to evolve enough to understand this. Far too many people with legitimate mental health problems wind up living on the streets.

edit on 30-12-2012 by poet1b because: Typos



posted on Dec, 30 2012 @ 01:49 PM
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I find it hilarious what a hypocrite Obama is. It is a JOKE to hear this man say he cares about 20 dead kids and gun violence. This man routinely orders schools, hospitals, factories, apartments, you name it, to be bombed on a routine basis with women and children present along with thousands of innocent lives lost. He ordered more drone strikes in his first 8 months than Bush did in all 8 years. The fact that so many people still believe his BS is beyond comprehension.

HYPOCRISY:
WARNING: EXTREMELY GRAPHIC CONTENT




1911 – Turkey disarmed it’s citizens, and between 1915 – 1917 they murdered 1.5 million Armenians.
1929 – Russia disarmed it’s citizens, and between 1929 – 1953 they murdered 20 million Russians.
1935 – China disarmed it’s citizens, and between 1948 – 1952 they murdered 20 million Chinese.
1938 – Germany disarmed it’s citizens, and between 1939 – 1945 they murdered 16 million Jews.
1956 – Cambodia disarmed it’s citizens, and between 1975 – 1977 they murdered 1 million Educated people.
1964 – Guatamala disarmed it’s citizens, and between 1964 – 1981 they murdered 100,000 Mayan Indians.
1970 – Uganda disarmed it’s citizens, and between 1971 – 1979 they murdered 300,000 Christians.
edit on 30-12-2012 by Merlin Lawndart because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 30 2012 @ 01:49 PM
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I'm bookmarking this. I don't know how many times I've seen one ATS poster challenge another to specifically name exactly what rights they had lost. I saw it again just the other day in a Gun Control thread. A few days before that I saw someone assert that we have MORE rights now than ever before. (I didn't ask them to enumerate these new rights; though I might have learned something if I had. A right to our own choice of lubricant, perhaps? Alas, I do not know....)



posted on Dec, 30 2012 @ 02:08 PM
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reply to post by Ex_CT2
 


On a whole we have a lot less rights then in 1950, some groups however have more protections (not the same as rights and they're actually used to keep another group down), I'll let you sort out who has more rights now and who's being stripped of protections and rights.



posted on Dec, 30 2012 @ 02:14 PM
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reply to post by ldyserenity
 


Hey, thanks. I don't have to work it out on the blackboard in front of the class, do I?

Kidding. Yeh, I think I could figure that out....



posted on Dec, 30 2012 @ 02:15 PM
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You know OP, this gun thing is getting downright scary. It really is. It's not the issue itself either. It's not even finding solutions reasonable people can agree on.

It's that no one is being reasonable. Drudge's headline right now is "There will be resistance" under "Obama to go for guns".


My growing fear here is that both sides are pushing this so far into loony extremism to their OWN side that it's shaping up to not simply be the addition of regulation. Due to the nature and scope of the fight, I'm really starting to fear they Government will figure they don't want THIS level of a fight TWICE. So, if they can get to the goal posts at all, it'll be with FAR MORE than ever would have been otherwise, had this not blown into 'All or Nothing' language for everyone.

BTW.. for those who hadn't seen it? The picture above those Drudge center bold headlines is a scene of British Redcoats firing Muskets on line. Just like Revolutionary times...
This explosive rhetoric may help CREATE unrest which never had to be there otherwise, IMO.



posted on Dec, 30 2012 @ 02:16 PM
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Originally posted by Ex_CT2
A few days before that I saw someone assert that we have MORE rights now than ever before. (I didn't ask them to enumerate these new rights; though I might have learned something if I had.


The problem many people have is that they are equating entitlements as a right.

Wasn't it said recently "At some point you've made enough money and you should pay your fair share."

It's that mentality that is taking the US to its doom. And there are so many that actually support it. I'm wavering between being baffled, or pissed off.



posted on Dec, 30 2012 @ 02:19 PM
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reply to post by poet1b
 



Probably the only realistic solution to these rampage killings is to start taking mental health issues a lot more seriously. Too many people with legitimate mental health issues, birth defects, diseases, and brain injuries that impair their ability to reason, should be given the same level of sympathy as cancer victims. Sadly in our society, we have yet to evolve enough to understand this. Far too many people with legitimate mental health problems wind up living on the streets.


Agreed, but I would like to add to that and also in a way dispute it. How about addressing Big Pharm, and the FDA??? Why is it in this country we seem to always put the blame on the victims, yet we never address the actual "root" of our problems? I am sure I am not the only one who while watching the idiot box, sees drug commercials and at the end of the commercial, they most likely will say, stop taking this medication immediately if you start having suicidal or homicidal thoughts and call your doctor immediately!!!

Seriously??? If a drug has those kinds of side effects, then why are they released to the general public in the first place?? Perhaps drug manufacterers and the FDA need to be put on trial when someone who is taking their medications, commit a violent crime!!!

The whole idea of clamping down on people with mental illnesses, as far as I am concerned a step further into our Orwellian nightmare that seems to get worse everyday. Grant you those who have mental illness perhaps need help, but not addressing the corporate machine that dispenses these dangerous chemicals is much more dangerous IMO......



posted on Dec, 30 2012 @ 02:26 PM
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reply to post by TDawgRex
 


Good point. No surprise, then, that I didn't understand what the hell they were on about....



posted on Dec, 30 2012 @ 02:36 PM
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Originally posted by TDawgRex

Originally posted by Ex_CT2
A few days before that I saw someone assert that we have MORE rights now than ever before. (I didn't ask them to enumerate these new rights; though I might have learned something if I had.


The problem many people have is that they are equating entitlements as a right.

Wasn't it said recently "At some point you've made enough money and you should pay your fair share."

It's that mentality that is taking the US to its doom. And there are so many that actually support it. I'm wavering between being baffled, or pissed off.


Some people need to realize the Free Lunch Myth doesn't work over the long run.
The entitlements may be free to "you" but someone has to pay for them.



For those that don't know.
edit on 30-12-2012 by RedmoonMWC because: To add



posted on Dec, 30 2012 @ 02:44 PM
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reply to post by poet1b
 


In my opinion RICO needs to be modified at least but the PATRIOT Act and NDAA need to be eliminated altogether.

The borders need to be closed there are more than guns and drugs crossing our southern border. It's a major highway for human trafficking as well.



posted on Dec, 30 2012 @ 02:48 PM
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reply to post by Merlin Lawndart
 


Agreed.
But you know he will just chalk it up to war casualties, and "colateral dammage". when we really have no business over there anymore. If big oil wants a pipeline let them hire blackwater or whatever they are calling themselves now and face the backlash from that action on their own.



posted on Dec, 30 2012 @ 02:52 PM
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reply to post by RedmoonMWC
 



Some people need to realize the Free Lunch Myth doesn't work over the long run.
The entitlements may be free to "you" but someone has to pay for them.


So very true! At the same time, we have a government whom have allowed corporations mover their operations to other countries thus denying Americans the ability to secure a good job!

We hear the "fiscal cliff" political theater daily, but yet we don't hear one politician, speak up and say that America's problems are based upon not having jobs. Instead, we have these criminals wanting to rob Peter to pay Paul, while doing nothing more than creating division amonst the populace of our country!

If we had a government who truly loved their country, we wouldn't be seeing huge corporations moving their businesses over seas to avoid paying taxes. We would have a work environment that would be more beneficial for people to get jobs and thus be able to pay taxes, versus relying on a government check. Not only that, but if we had an industry in this country that actuall built things versus selling things produced in other countries, it would be really easy to put those on government welfare to work, wouldn't you think? Seriously, how can the government expect people to support their criminal burocracy, when they have allowed our country to become one of nothing more than a haven for restaurants and retail stores? The more jobs, the more people pay taxes, thus enabling these criminals to support their illegal habits, wouldn't you say? People don't realize that no matter how much revenue we can generate in taxes, that it will just be spent into oblivion.

Governement is not the answer to America's problems, it is the CAUSE of America's problems.....



posted on Dec, 30 2012 @ 02:53 PM
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Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
You know OP, this gun thing is getting downright scary. It really is. It's not the issue itself either. It's not even finding solutions reasonable people can agree on.

It's that no one is being reasonable. Drudge's headline right now is "There will be resistance" under "Obama to go for guns".


My growing fear here is that both sides are pushing this so far into loony extremism to their OWN side that it's shaping up to not simply be the addition of regulation. Due to the nature and scope of the fight, I'm really starting to fear they Government will figure they don't want THIS level of a fight TWICE. So, if they can get to the goal posts at all, it'll be with FAR MORE than ever would have been otherwise, had this not blown into 'All or Nothing' language for everyone.

BTW.. for those who hadn't seen it? The picture above those Drudge center bold headlines is a scene of British Redcoats firing Muskets on line. Just like Revolutionary times...
This explosive rhetoric may help CREATE unrest which never had to be there otherwise, IMO.


It is sad but true.
But the American People have given up enough rights, it's time to say enough is enough.

seeker1963

Governement is not the answer to America's problems, it is the CAUSE of America's problems
Ronald Reagan

Agreed, NAFTA, CAFTA etc.. put a lot of people out of work and some still haven't found work.
edit on 30-12-2012 by RedmoonMWC because: to add



posted on Dec, 30 2012 @ 03:05 PM
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reply to post by seeker1963
 

whole-heartedly agree !!
victims seem to get the blame for everything these days, what is up with that ?

i would also take it one step further and eliminate the whole dang State Dept and all their fluff.
perhaps then Congress can get on with doing the job they were elected to do.

House - voice of the people
Senate - voice of the State

instead of 535 voices clamoring for more Federal anything


immigration isn't a federal problem, it's a problem for several specific states, let them handle it.
enhance cooperation and resources, nothing else.

gun violence isn't anything POTUS can "handle" anyway.
it is beyond his scope of ability, authority and imagination.



posted on Dec, 30 2012 @ 03:16 PM
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Originally posted by Honor93
reply to post by seeker1963
 

whole-heartedly agree !!
victims seem to get the blame for everything these days, what is up with that ?

i would also take it one step further and eliminate the whole dang State Dept and all their fluff.
perhaps then Congress can get on with doing the job they were elected to do.

House - voice of the people
Senate - voice of the State

instead of 535 voices clamoring for more Federal anything


immigration isn't a federal problem, it's a problem for several specific states, let them handle it.
enhance cooperation and resources, nothing else.

gun violence isn't anything POTUS can "handle" anyway.
it is beyond his scope of ability, authority and imagination.


You hit that one right on the head gun violence is a local problem that needs a local solution.
Personally I like the way Kennesaw, Georgia handled it.
And the way Utah is handeling it with 200+ teachers getting concealed carry training now.
Gun control is about redistribution of arms from American citizens to the state. It is about control, not the guns.



posted on Dec, 30 2012 @ 03:23 PM
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I am still waiting for the supporters of the Patriot Act, NDAA and Gun Control to show up.
I am sure they will eventually.

Disarm the citizines and let the cartels walk all over us seems to be the goal.



posted on Dec, 30 2012 @ 03:46 PM
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Redmoon Excellent work and a lot of work Well done
Let me ad something, a poster in another thread brought something up that should be added to your thread, within the patriot act there is something called: CSAT. (Chemical Security Assessment Tool). Companies in the United States must submit what is called a "Top Screening" and disclose whether they have chemicals that are on the DHS's "list of chemicals of concern". Problem is DHS has almost limitless powers which most do not realize, well salt peter is on this list. Well since gunpowder has salt peter in it they can without a warrant decide that Salt peter is now on some list of chemicals that cannot fall into the hands of (Enemies) and they can do this THEY DO NOT HAVE TO GIVE CAUSE NOR DO THEY NEED A COURT ORDER TO DO SO. With that said they can go after the ammo and factories that make it, which is what I have been preaching for a year plus now.
They will say we didnt take your guns, but a gun with no ammo is a paper weight and I have been saying I do NOT think congress will pass this bill in this form or pretty much any form.
Which leave Obama to use an executive order to get what he wants or if he thinks it actually might erupt into civil unrest/war then just turn his DHL dogs lose and let them go after salt peter
Food for thought



posted on Dec, 30 2012 @ 04:26 PM
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Originally posted by themutant
Redmoon Excellent work and a lot of work Well done
Let me ad something, a poster in another thread brought something up that should be added to your thread, within the patriot act there is something called: CSAT. (Chemical Security Assessment Tool). Companies in the United States must submit what is called a "Top Screening" and disclose whether they have chemicals that are on the DHS's "list of chemicals of concern". Problem is DHS has almost limitless powers which most do not realize, well salt peter is on this list. Well since gunpowder has salt peter in it they can without a warrant decide that Salt peter is now on some list of chemicals that cannot fall into the hands of (Enemies) and they can do this THEY DO NOT HAVE TO GIVE CAUSE NOR DO THEY NEED A COURT ORDER TO DO SO. With that said they can go after the ammo and factories that make it, which is what I have been preaching for a year plus now.
They will say we didnt take your guns, but a gun with no ammo is a paper weight and I have been saying I do NOT think congress will pass this bill in this form or pretty much any form.
Which leave Obama to use an executive order to get what he wants or if he thinks it actually might erupt into civil unrest/war then just turn his DHL dogs lose and let them go after salt peter
Food for thought


Thank you, I do remember reading about CSAT but I wasn't thinking specifically about ingredients at the time.

Gunpowder is formed from the chemical mixture of saltpeter (potassium nitrate) at 75%, sulphur 10 % and charcoal 15%. When it is ignited it burns rapidly and makes an explosion.

All of these ingredients are readily available in any garden center or home-improvement store. Charcoal is sold for grilling, and sulfur comes in bags that say “sulfur” in big letters and most brands of stump remover are pure potassium nitrate.

I suppose they could make home canners and gardeners get permits to use these chemicals.






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