Smartest Man in America says God exists

Originally posted by Wandering Scribe
reply to post by Wonders

 

The actual contents of your story, however, only bring more questions to my mind. As you said, you were crying and emotionally overwrought when the descent of the Holy Spirit occurred. Have you ever watched a distraught person go through an emotionally trying situation? Have you ever tried to talk to someone who is caught in the grips of hysteria? The speaking in tongues is quite common: people mumble, they babble, and they cannot make proper sense of their words because of the emotional weight upon them. As far as I am concerned, you experienced an episode of glossolalia brought on by emotional despair. Not a religious experience. Although I can see why you would have thought that was what happened.

Early on, you claim that you had no knowledge of God, or Christianity having never gone to church or been involved in religious systems. Yet, toward the end, you identified the "other entity" present as a demon, and the Devil, despite having no knowledge you were experiencing a religious act. This is hypocritical. Either you did know about God and the Devil, and you let it psychologically lead your experience which makes your anecdote unreliable... or you didn't know about God and the Devil, in which case why did you think this other entity was evil?

Next, psychic powers. Could you demonstrate these in a video? Could you teach me exactly how to achieve the same feat? Could you perform this in a controlled environment which was being monitored? Why would God reward you by hinting that you had psychic powers, if He never allowed you to fully use them? God is an Indian Giver if he does that. He seeks your loyalty for promises of future rewards. What makes that any different than the Devil promising you fame, fortune, and wealth tomorrow, if you give him your soul today?

Finally, Africa. Thousands of children starve to death, women are raped and murdered, and men lose life and limb every day because of conditions which God could fix. There are missionaries, Churches, charities, and all manner of believers trying to make the situation better over there; they even deny contraceptives, and abortion. So, by what manner do you measure yourself, and your egotistical prayer as more important to God, then millions of starving children simply asking Him for enough food to feed themselves?

It's a petty system really. God will answer your prayer about self-worth; help someone football team win a pointless game, or help you find your car keys... but He won't bat an ear when a starving child asks him to not get sick, to have a meal for the evening, or to make sure his daddy comes home safe. God is a monster.

~ Wandering Scribe

Yes I figured you'd turn and trample, but my post was not only for you, it was also for those who were able to comprehend what I said. What I said didn't take courage because there is nothing in your responses to fear to begin with. Where did I say that I had no knowledge of God, please quote me on everything you are accusing me of saying because if anyone actually read my posts then they'd know that I said I was told very little about God in my formative years.

The reason that I believe in the God of the bible (The same bible that holds the scripture as shown in my signature) is because I've had spectacular things happen in my life because of my belief in this God that I was told very little about as a child, going to church alone does not suffice at all, and for MANY it leads them further into a lifestyle of ignorance and denial.

Please do not pretend to know more about my experience than I do. You insinuated that I could not make proper sense of the words I was speaking because of emotional weight.

I felt that I should open my mouth and then words started coming out, from some language I am not aware of, I was looking at myself in the mirror while talking seeing my lips move but my mind was my own I was thinking different thoughts and listening to how the language sounded and generally in awe while that was going on.

Where is the emotional weight in awe, of course I couldn't make proper sense of the words because it they were in a language I did not know, I know what a language sounds like, it's not like I was chanting or ad-libbing as I had my own thoughts going on at the time. I was not in hysterics, I've been in hysterics before and that wasn't it. I was not crying while I was speaking clear and distinct words.
What makes you think that I had no knowledge that it was a religous act? I knew it was God and that evil presence confirmed it by trying to shut me up. What you need to understand is that demons are not going to try to hinder a person who is on their way to hell, the war starts with acceptance of Christ. You can not expoit God and his powers.

reply to post by Nicks87


If faith is truly not important, than why do Christians rally so hard against abortion, or gay rights? Why is stem-cell research such a taboo to them? It has very little to do with being left to their own devices. People are free to practice whatever religion they wish in the privacy of their own home. The reason that my post is relevant is because the faithful are not content with their personal beliefs. They need their fantasies validated by the masses. If they do not get to dictate everyone else's belief, based on their own, then something is wrong in the world.

That is why the issue of God finding car keys, but not feeding starving children is so important. We have farmers and scientists working together to produce healthier crops which produce an abundance of food. This produce can then be turned around and used to help feed the starving children in Africa. These same men can also find their own car keys. So, why don't we turn and worship them as gods? They're doing a whole lot more for the world than this perceived omnipotent being who is also omniscient.

So, tell me, why does it matter if you feel God's presence? God is doing nothing to improve this planet. Why should we care at all about where he is present, or not present? Belief becomes a disease when it skewers reality, and makes men into animals. If you want your God to be taken seriously, than show us what your God has done. Otherwise, turn your energy toward something more constructive, and get out of the way of progress. God will never supply a utopia, because God is too busy helping your favorite team win the Superbowl.

~ Wandering Scribe

Originally posted by Wandering Scribe
reply to post by Wonders

 

Finally, Africa. Thousands of children starve to death, women are raped and murdered, and men lose life and limb every day because of conditions which God could fix. There are missionaries, Churches, charities, and all manner of believers trying to make the situation better over there; they even deny contraceptives, and abortion. So, by what manner do you measure yourself, and your egotistical prayer as more important to God, then millions of starving children simply asking Him for enough food to feed themselves?

It's a petty system really. God will answer your prayer about self-worth; help someone football team win a pointless game, or help you find your car keys... but He won't bat an ear when a starving child asks him to not get sick, to have a meal for the evening, or to make sure his daddy comes home safe. God is a monster.

~ Wandering Scribe

You talk about the missionaries but do you know about the witchcraft that goes on there?
Your last paragraph sounds a lot like conjecture. I don't know why everyone brings up Africa as if there aren't any starving people in their own country. Secondly, since when is a person supposed to blow a trumpet every time they do a good deed, that's not biblical, so just because you aren't hearing, it doesn't mean that there aren't people doing.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


I'm going to talk about how I feel in this reply. Because I feel like emotion means more to you then reason, intellect, or rationality. That being said, I feel like this may be one of the few times anyone has actively challenged your dedication to a spiritual belief.

I feel that if you were more comfortable with your beliefs, you'd have more worthwhile responses to the questions I am asking. I'm going to try and see if I can help though. Tell me if any of my answer feels right to you.

You do not believe that Marduk, Rē, and Brahmā are the Most High God, because you only know about one religion. Additionally, you are too stubborn, close-minded, intolerant, or bigoted (pick one) to try and learn about another one. But that's OK. I live in America; the land of free choice. Your unwillingness to learn is a God-given right in my country.

I'm going to carry on being a nasty, ugly personality now.

~ Wandering Scribe

Originally posted by SLAYER69
reply to post by Runciter33

 

I'm sure this thread will gain much attention from various groups posting various opinions for various reasons.

I believe in the theory of evolution, but I believe as well in the allegorical truth of creation theory. In other words, I believe that evolution, including the principle of natural selection, is one of the tools used by God to create mankind. Mankind is then a participant in the creation of the universe itself, so that we have a closed loop. I believe that there is a level on which science and religious metaphor are mutually compatible

I've argued a very similar stance in some of my threads and in thread replies on similar topics.

Flame on.

That is where I am with God and creation and evolution. Thanks slayer.

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
reply to post by Runciter33

 

I have to agree with you; and I am unable to deny that I am a contributor part of this 'atheist vs. believer' debate and have taken this thread quite a ways off topic. For that I apologize.

I mean, I think Langan's logic is valid, but not in any way sound. His conclusions are possible but scientifically unfalsifiable and end up being merely a creative endeavour into metaphysics.

No need for any apology, it just attracted more of the hardliner stance from both sides as compared to the maybe more moderate one i had hoped for, especially in the early stages of the thread. Regardless though i suppose everyone has their opinions whatever they are and are entitled to them.

I admit to be guilty of not yet reading his paper other than briefly looking at it, but what i have heard from him thus far from the interview and other youtube sources has me intrigued.

Not necessarily accepting all of what he says, i will read his CTMU and come back to share any impressions of it.

reply to post by Wandering Scribe

You assume, that I'm not well aware of other religions and streams of thought and beliefs, or even the degree to which I've already discovered how many of those influences were factored in and summed up or synthesized by the extremely rational and logical mind of the historical person (and crossroads) of Jesus, as become evident in any deep study of his thinking and philosophy and debating skills.

My problem with your reply was it's entirely disingenuous nature, and here you are simply trying to uphold the facade of your earlier post.

Originally posted by Wandering Scribe

I'm not an atheist; I have a fondness toward deities from a plethora of religions.

Just make certain that your pantheon of Gods, in their relationship both to you, and thus to one another, never turn on you and rip you to pieces, because the very nature of evolutionary growth, even in the midst of eternity and as the very purpose of creation and thus of our immediate experience (as our friend AfterInfinity pointed out earlier in this thread, rather poetically, with his circle and tree analogy) - involves (via involution) a continual process both of differentiation AND reintegration.


Best Regards, and Happy New Year!

NAM

A fool for Christ.

Note the Triptych Arch..

reply to post by NewAgeMan


NewAgeMan,

Why do you think that there is only one creator? Why do you think that GOD is all alone, and the only one of a kind?

If there is one, why not 2 or 3 or and infinite number of ones like him? How do you know that several "GODS" didn't take part in creation?

It took 2 people to create my body. It took several men to build my house, and then plumbers, electricians, etc. not to mention those who designed the roads, water and sewer systems, placed schools,parks and shopping venues conveniently nearby. Tens of thousands of people, created vehicles and roads ways, planes and airports so that other people could come and visit me in my house.

Why wouldn't GOD be a team player with other equal GODS? Why is it logical to you that there is only one GOD?

Originally posted by windword
Why is it logical to you that there is only one GOD?

You didn't get the joke..?


Because I'm an evolutionary Christian mystic, who sees in Christ the manifestation of the Godhead paying attention to the human being and inviting us to be with him where he is, at the right hand of the father who is also the Alpha and Omega of existence, the first/last cause, the begging and the end, the first and the last. It is logical, but it would require you to set aside a number of assumptions and preconceptions first, in order to seek to understand what I'm trying to describe, which is really a model of perfect enlightenment because it's in perfect sympathetic harmonious alignment with the embodiment and personification of the Godhead, and best of all because it's not and cannot be an imposition upon the mind of man and thus represents the absolute simplicity of an absolute and perfect love at the far end of complexity, and so as an evolutionary principal, it's formative or creative ie: playful, fun, enjoyable, satisfying.

"Because my yoke is easy and my burden is light."

I am only interested in that final precious thing capable of putting an everlasting childlike smile back on my face while giving me the opportunity to share that in koinonia with my fellow man, or more specifically, with you, as my brother, whereby we've all come, as one family (however large) to the table of the Wedding Feast of the Lord (everlasting and eternal spirit of life and love).

All knowledge comes to nothing without love, but with the love of Christ it becomes the knowledge of experience and therefore REAL knowledge and understanding, of the experiential variety. Everything else is just a bunch of intellectual mumbo-jumbo and doesn't even add up to a hill of beans.

If you had even the first clue as to what I've had to go through to bring this understanding forward in a rational way that makes sense, and the energy involved, including the dark night's of the soul (plural), then you would inquire into it, understand it, accept it, and it would make you laugh out loud until you cry and then have the tears wiped away from your eyes with still more laughter, until you can't believe the magnitude of the love, and the loving humor of the living God himself, and then well, you just KNOW!. And then once the mind and heart changes shape it can never go back to its original configuration. You can't unget or ungrok an excellent joke told at the expense of all your prior ignorance, unless you want to continue to delude yourself just to save it for later, but later never comes, that's the problem and this is why Jesus understood clearly, that it had to be brought forward as an open invitation with the utmost sense of urgency, although sadly it's taken us over 2000 years now to even begin to figure out just what the heck he was really talking about!

Best Regards,

NAM

reply to post by NewAgeMan


I understand the concept and where you're coming from. But, when you get to the "top," when that overview of the universe is achieved, don't you think there might be other gods up there? Do you think the "Alpha and the Omega" stop or come to an end there, resting in static peace, or does the journey continue, even for GOD?

Do you ever think that even GOD may be on a "Hero's journey" of his own?



Is he sharing the cosmic joke with another god?

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

Do you ever think that even GOD may be on a "Hero's journey" of his own?

Is he sharing the cosmic joke with another god?

Yes, he is, and that other God is you as a child of God growing up. As to the invisible, mysterious, inscrutable Godhead, that we can never understand. Therefore the best that we can do is to say that we are children OF God.

We are those other Gods-to-be by invitation, into an intimate, participatory, co-creative relationship, but with humility as a part of, while the infinite Godhead is forever available as a domain of possibility and exploration ie: still invisible.

And who would want any intermediate GodZ, if our true relationship as self actualized Christ-like persons is one where we may stand next to him in a spiritual paradise capable of altogether transcending the sorrows and sufferings and the trials and tribulations of this world, sorrows that he also carries, in memory, so that in the final analysis, by completing the circle of joy (in a shared triumph over suffering), we also might complete HIS joy WITH us, together. It's an altogether unexpected delight to grasp the true nature of the love relationship intended between God and his children whereby it was all about US from the beginning, and only an I-you or I-thou relationship to the degree that love conquors all and forever remains as that between a parent and child, between a father and son, between a beloved and beloved other whereby Atma and Brahma are also one ("I and the father are one!").

This would then serve as the basis of the idea of the Triune Godhead in the three persons of the father the son and the holy spirit (which also informs us as the spirit of infinite intelligence).

Amen?

P.S. Just for the record I've read (and to a large degree "grokked") the works of Joseph Campbell including "The Hero with a Thousand Faces" as well as the "Masks of God" series, so I'm well acquainted with comparative mythology and religion. I'm also well read in Jungian psychology/philosophy.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


I see "Christ" as an archetype figure, not an individual man. Christ is the image of ourselves, a little further up the road. Like a rainbow, the closer you get, the more it moves away, but yet we keep following the rainbow.

As I move along my path, I have been allowed glimpse of the watchers, nodding pleasantly in affirmation of my passage. They line my path like a mountain range leads a valley. These are gods.

I have no reason to believe that there aren't more, bigger "gods" down the road a bit.

reply to post by windword

Sure I totally get what you're saying. And at the end of that great valley (of watchers from the stands) in the rainbow stands God and God's glory with the Lamb of God.

By accepting the Christ archetype of God as something very fundamental in regards to our place in the grand scheme of things as "son of man", then you not only have a lot of rainbow colored light shining in, but a real destiny and while it's on the Road Less Travelled, it's a worthwhile journey, one made all the easier having been previously traveled by both men and Gods.

What I'm saying is that God is the most informed and perhaps the funniest of them all, who not only punk'd all men in the historical great work of Jesus Christ the living person, but who in heaven is sure to also be in a position to punk the Gods as needed, so as to keep their love and humor alive. At least that's what I'd like to imagine.

It's a KINGDOM of heaven, so I'm with you on the idea of a hiearchy of powers and principalities, in this case the GOOD ones and not the bad because if anyone was ever kicked out of heaven who would want to throw in with that lot it would make no sense, even though we see many at "their" mercy every day, may they come to see the light that draws all men out of Plato's cave if not saving them from the threat of destruction (God doesn't want any to be forever lost to him).

Quote:

Gladwell writes that although Langan "read deeply in philosophy, mathematics, and physics" as he worked on the CTMU, "without academic credentials, he despairs of ever getting published in a scholarly journal.

From the posted link, see OP's first post.

A theory is just a theory, we all have them in regards to this subject. Your reality, my reality, his reality, who is right? Let us not forget that how intelligence is measured is being scrutizined because as it stands now, it does not account for other capabilities.

Quote:

Current research supports the concept of multiple types intelligences, Reingold said, rather than a “single, underlying intelligence” across all domains.

Read more: www.ctvnews.ca...

reply to post by windword

P.S. From the POV of the watcher "in the stands" looking down on a Hero's journey through the valley, who's really the God..?

Let's not get our Gods confused, eh?

Anything that's functional and empowering towards the realization of authentic spiritual growth and well being is all good as far as I'm concerned even yes as a "Christian".

But if you're heading for Florida, you might as well go straight there, instead of all over hell's half acre, imho. Me I'm just trying to save a lot of people a lot of unnecessary and wasted time and energy, if I can, because I just like to be most helpful to others it's my thing.

We're all in this thing together after all. It's just reason, and logic, and God and people willing, an experience of shared joy and laughter and love.

reply to post by windword


Multiple gods is off-topic but I felt the need to interject from my own understanding. God implies perfection. If God is perfect then there is no need for another. This sounds simplistic but its actually more complex than that. We exist in a world that is subject to certain laws. If God existed with another god within the same realm then they would both be held to the laws of that dimension thus negating their godly status due to being subservient to anything. I might not have explained that well its hard for me to put into words. This is why the Christian idea (I know this is further off topic) of God being separate but co-equal with Christ is able to be true and logical because they are the same. The closest non christian basis would be akin to eastern ideas of multiple gods being manifestations of the same god but even then we see several instances of these gods contradicting the supreme will and their personal imperfections etc.

In God's perfection which we can not fully understand we do not find the human qualities that the "mythical" figures of antiquity have. You can look at any belief held by their followers and see numerous occurrences where these gods are held in servitude to something else. The supreme creator the first cause would be the most high.

This is my understanding and would like to hear from others about it. I also find it interesting that people with differing concepts of God in this thread have a loose consensus of the evidences to support the idea of a creator or supreme power. People like Chris Langan are "big picture" thinkers most likely and this is probably why thinkers of that ilk have an easier time grasping the God concept. I imagine if he had focused and specialized in one discipline he would not be able to have this big picture view or as he calls it CTMU.

reply to post by NihilistSanta

Both our avatars are in direct conflict . Therefore, since we are here sharing the same "domain", I guess we can't be Gods by your analysis. Oh well.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


Fine by me. I freely acknowledge my ungodliness which is more than I can say for some. However unless you are a Mormon then Ill have to say no gods here just us conflicted avatars. My logic holds

reply to post by NihilistSanta

Now that we're aware of it though, it changes the meaningful frame of reference and something new becomes possible, so at least no one can accuse us of not being creative, or imaginative, maybe even insightful.. hey anything's possible.