Smartest Man in America says God exists

Originally posted by Wandering Scribe
reply to post by Wonders

 

where do you derive your notion of God?
You see, my list of "demonic entities" covered a fairly extensive group of cultures and religions:
Who is the God you believe in, and where does He/She/It originate?
for one who is "not a Christian," you sure could have fooled my by quoting from Isaiah in your signature...

Alright, first of all, it's a new year so, I've cleaned my foe slate.
Yes I figured that they were from an extensive group of cultures. The reason that I believe in the God of the bible (The same bible that holds the scripture as shown in my signature) is because I've had spectacular things happen in my life because of my belief in this God that I was told very little about as a child, going to church alone does not suffice at all, and for MANY it leads them further into a lifestyle of ignorance and denial.
I understand where you are coming from with your questions. If a person claims to know that God exists, some naturally want to know who what where when why and how. I get it. Few are surprised with the overtly satanic stuff that society puts out because that's natural, it's expected, and they have been exposed to enough of it.
The fact that I believe in God's existence draws questions in people's minds, they want to know why I believe what I believe to see if they can possibly believe it too, because God knows all things and leads people unto himself, people naturally want to know what makes a person like myself who I am. Naturally people get sick of the lies and deceptions, Jesus said it was the sick who needed a doctor. We are all born with a desire to know about this person who says that they have a reason to believe in God. You don't expect me to ask you about your beliefs because they differ from mine. I've got the claim and you don't or won't or want to. If you can expect, it won't be easy for me to explain FULLY why I believe what I do, and obviously doing so would involve talking a bit about myself, because if God is in my life then I won't only be talking about God but myself in relation to God since God is not a mere piece of paper.
When I was in the 11th grade, I prayed, not half heartedly but fervently. I poured out my heart to God, this really is a long story and I hope to share it in it's entirety in the future. Time did not matter when I prayed so long as I said my peace so I spent maybe a couple hrs, it came with crocodile tears and all while I said my LONG version of the "sinner's prayer". Well, while I was praying I felt reminded that forgiveness was necessary in order to be forgiven, somehow God's presence made that very easy to do, knowing full well that God wasn't about to break my chains to my sins unless I broke my own chains to the trespasses I held against others, so to speak. Shortly after I decided that holding grudges wasn't worth it I was filled with the Holy Spirit, though I wasn't aware of it at the time since I was very illiterate when it came to the bible. The way it happened was I was standing and praying and crying and then it was like something literally poured into me through the top of my head, it hit my gut and started bubbling up I could feel it tangibly but couldn't see anything visibly because I went to stand infront of the full length mirror to see. The Holy Spirt bubbled up my esophagus and got to my tongue, it took ahold of my jaw and tongue. I felt that I should open my mouth and then words started coming out, from some language I am not aware of, I was looking at myself in the mirror while talking seeing my lips move but my mind was my own I was thinking different thoughts and listening to how the language sounded and generally in awe while that was going on. I was aware that I could stop it if I wanted but ofcourse I didnt want to even if I didn't understand what was going on, nothing like that had ever happened to me before so ofcourse I didn't want to hinder what God was doing and decided to trust him with my body.Then I sensed someone else in the room, a dark malevolent spirit that spoke to my spirit saying, "You sound sooo stupid." I knew that had to be a demon come to make me self conscious and I decided that I'd rather keep up the language so long as God wanted it to giving no place for the devil because I knew I needed to trust God. When I finally finished "speaking in tongues"(I didn't know that's what it was called at the time), I felt led to put my hand over my blanket and tell it to move, so I did, and it started moving along with the wave of my hand, I said aloud, "Am I going crazy?" immediately after I said that, it stopped, then I said, "Okay, I'm not crazy." and was able to commence with God showing me that power comes w/ the territory. Ultimately I sinned after, through choice and ignorance,even so he answered many prayers, loved me still.

reply to post by Wonders

Wow, any gods could easily boost their numbers of believers if they pulled more stuff off like that.
I wonder why you were the chosen one, if indeed gods exist.

Originally posted by grainofsand
reply to post by Stormdancer777

 

Nice poem, conjures up some beautiful imagery in my mind.

As far as my spirituality goes though I don't have any particular faith at all, just romantic hopeful visions of humankind loving each other more than an invisible friend.

Exactly, you see.

youtu.be...



“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

Really smart people build atomic bombs and gave them to idiots.
So much for intelligence.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


Oh, so the Most High god then. OK. You'll still have to be more specific.

From the Mesopotamian Enuma Elish we have Marduk as the highest god:

And inside Apsu Marduk was created;
Inside pure Apsu Marduk was born.
Ea his father created him,
Damkina his mother bore him.
He suckled the teats of goddesses;
The nurse who reared him filled him with awesomeness.
Proud was his form, piercing his stare,
Mature his emergence, he was powerful from the start.
Anu, his father's begetter, beheld him,
And rejoiced, beamed; his heart was filled with joy.
He made him so perfect that his godhead was doubled.
Elevated far above them, he was superior in every way.
His limbs were ingeniously made beyond comprehension,
Impossible to understand, too difficult to perceive.
Four were his eyes, four were his ears;
When his lips moved fire blazed forth.
The four ears were enormous
And likewise the eyes; they perceived everything.
Highest among the gods, his form was outstanding.

From the Egyptian Book of Coming Forth by Day we have Rē as the highest god:

O, god of life, lord of love
All people live when thou shine
O, crowned as King of the Gods
Nut makes homage to thee
Maāt embraces thee at every season
Those who follow sing praises of thee
They bow down upon the earth when meeting thee
The Lord of Heaven
The Lord of Earth
The King of Righteousness
The Lord of Eternity
Prince of Everlasting
Ruler of all gods
God of life
Maker of eternity
Creator of Heaven

Even Brahmā, during the brahma-kāyika-deva, is given the title of Most High:

I am Brahma, the Great Brahmā,
The Most High
The Invincible One
The Omniscient One
The Ruler
The Lord
The Creator
The Maker
The Perfect One
The Preserver
The Controller
The Father of all that was and will be.

So, is it Marduk, Rē, YHVH, Brahmā, or one of a host of other "most high" gods? It seems to me that you've been raised to believe that the Bible is the only divinely inspired document; since you quoted Luke 6:35 as evidence of your stance. Unfortunately, it would seem that you have much discrimination within your own spiritual practice. Whatever reason you would use to discount Marduk, Rē, and Brahmā as the Most High, I bet you would find a special explanation for why that reason does not apply to YHVH. This is an act of hypocrisy and intellectual dishonesty.

~ Wandering Scribe

reply to post by Wonders


I will admit, it was nice to see someone actually defend themselves after being caught in the situation which you walked into. I've starred your response just for having the courage to do that.

The actual contents of your story, however, only bring more questions to my mind. As you said, you were crying and emotionally overwrought when the descent of the Holy Spirit occurred. Have you ever watched a distraught person go through an emotionally trying situation? Have you ever tried to talk to someone who is caught in the grips of hysteria? The speaking in tongues is quite common: people mumble, they babble, and they cannot make proper sense of their words because of the emotional weight upon them. As far as I am concerned, you experienced an episode of glossolalia brought on by emotional despair. Not a religious experience. Although I can see why you would have thought that was what happened.

Early on, you claim that you had no knowledge of God, or Christianity having never gone to church or been involved in religious systems. Yet, toward the end, you identified the "other entity" present as a demon, and the Devil, despite having no knowledge you were experiencing a religious act. This is hypocritical. Either you did know about God and the Devil, and you let it psychologically lead your experience which makes your anecdote unreliable... or you didn't know about God and the Devil, in which case why did you think this other entity was evil?

Next, psychic powers. Could you demonstrate these in a video? Could you teach me exactly how to achieve the same feat? Could you perform this in a controlled environment which was being monitored? Why would God reward you by hinting that you had psychic powers, if He never allowed you to fully use them? God is an Indian Giver if he does that. He seeks your loyalty for promises of future rewards. What makes that any different than the Devil promising you fame, fortune, and wealth tomorrow, if you give him your soul today?

Finally, Africa. Thousands of children starve to death, women are raped and murdered, and men lose life and limb every day because of conditions which God could fix. There are missionaries, Churches, charities, and all manner of believers trying to make the situation better over there; they even deny contraceptives, and abortion. So, by what manner do you measure yourself, and your egotistical prayer as more important to God, then millions of starving children simply asking Him for enough food to feed themselves?

It's a petty system really. God will answer your prayer about self-worth; help someone football team win a pointless game, or help you find your car keys... but He won't bat an ear when a starving child asks him to not get sick, to have a meal for the evening, or to make sure his daddy comes home safe. God is a monster.

~ Wandering Scribe

In The Beginning Man Created God, because man had no answer for why the heavens called to him.
But little did man know that he was God, and through his procreation in his flesh did man created even more of himself, until there was enough Gods to inherit all of the heavens, where he could create new civilizations of his earthy self and be loved for eternity

Originally posted by grainofsand

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Morg234

 

But to say that everything happened by chance is nothing short of asinine.

To assert that everything is the result of an unknown divine/energy could be equally considered asinine.
People used to blame earthquakes on gods until we got a better grasp of geological processes.

How do you know they are not caused by God? We know how they happen and not why. This is a lot like the big bang. Its a nice how that pretends to be a why. You only assume the why. See you make the mistake that many others do. You produce nothing of your own and regurgitate ideas and refutations you have picked up from others. You ask for proofs but you ignore proof when offered.

Life is proof. Sorry if it is too complex for you to understand. You take a reductionist approach to everything and therefor you have missed the bigger picture. You are looking at the nuts on the wing of an airplane with no understanding of aerodynamics that are the driving principles in flight.

There is such a thing as being too skeptical. You possess all of the evidence you need but if you do not have the understanding to interpret the data (life) that is a deficiency on your part.

I love how so many atheist (not all) can not produce ideas of their own but merely poorly reiterate the ideas of others. It allows you to ignore new information that does not gel with your predetermined (through someone else ) faith based speculation. I say faith because I doubt you have personally put anything under scientific verification for yourself and are taking someone else word for it.

The most horrific realization should come from the fact that your assumptions are based mostly on incomplete knowledge gleaned from limited tools which you hold to be truth. Life is truth. It exist we measure it and so far have found it to be such a mathematical uncertainty as to be impossible (with what tools we have) yet it does.

Again you never answered me earlier when I asked you to show me one thing that wasn't created. You are the one backing spontaneous generation (big bang) not I.

Originally posted by NihilistSanta

Originally posted by grainofsand

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Morg234

 

But to say that everything happened by chance is nothing short of asinine.

To assert that everything is the result of an unknown divine/energy could be equally considered asinine.
People used to blame earthquakes on gods until we got a better grasp of geological processes.

How do you know they are not caused by God? We know how they happen and not why. This is a lot like the big bang. Its a nice how that pretends to be a why. You only assume the why. See you make the mistake that many others do. You produce nothing of your own and regurgitate ideas and refutations you have picked up from others. You ask for proofs but you ignore proof when offered.

Life is proof.

Your perception of life is not proof.

Sorry if it is too complex for you to understand. You take a reductionist approach to everything and therefor you have missed the bigger picture. You are looking at the nuts on the wing of an airplane with no understanding of aerodynamics that are the driving principles in flight.

There is such a thing as being too skeptical. You possess all of the evidence you need but if you do not have the understanding to interpret the data (life) that is a deficiency on your part.

I love how so many atheist (not all) can not produce ideas of their own but merely poorly reiterate the ideas of others. It allows you to ignore new information that does not gel with your predetermined (through someone else ) faith based speculation. I say faith because I doubt you have personally put anything under scientific verification for yourself and are taking someone else word for it.

The most horrific realization should come from the fact that your assumptions are based mostly on incomplete knowledge gleaned from limited tools which you hold to be truth. Life is truth. It exist we measure it and so far have found it to be such a mathematical uncertainty as to be impossible (with what tools we have) yet it does.

You assert much about me albeit incorrect and mostly ad hominem.

Again you never answered me earlier when I asked you to show me one thing that wasn't created. You are the one backing spontaneous generation (big bang) not I.

I dismissed it as irrelevant, proving nothing. Who created your creator? etc etc
No evidence of any gods.

reply to post by Runciter33


I know they say some of the richest people in the world are atheists. From everything I have read about evolution, it's never been observed. They have never even been able to identify found changes and prove that they are all part of one process. No one has ever witnessed a species changing into another species. We have however witnessed species changing. There is just to much speculation in evolution for it to be possible. It's akin to somone with a Rube Goldberg machine with the acception that those work sometimes and can be witnessed.

We do on the other hand have historical documentation that god exists, oddly no one ever saw him. I'm on the fence about evolution and creation but will tell you that from a recent theory I developed, intelligence is involved in our lives.

It's called Target Food. The idea is that each species is only supposed to have one to three things total for adequate consumption. Target Food is rice in nutrients to the consumer and is all that is needed for food. We live on a planet where mass species have been brought into earth, and thus causing an inbalance in the life. It would appear that each planet is designed with the balance of life in consideration. The problem is that someone went around and collected all this life from other planets, and put them all here together, and you can't do that. So what has happened is we now have a collaps in our chain structure and species are dying like crazy. Scientists are baffeled by the fact that we are headed into the 6th largest extinction, but only because they are first making the wrong assumption that all life thats here is from here and belongs here.

It says in the bible that we were provided with every plant, every herb and so one, but it also says that none of these things are from our home. In other words none of the food we eat was actually intended for us. This is why we are so problem riddled with the food we consume, this is why we have been making our own food, known as processed food. This is also why we don't have an adequate supply of calcium for ourselves. We need 1000 mg a day and thats if your not pregnant and not a teenager. Do your own research and try to see if you can reach you daily goal. It's not possible, at least not without gorging yourself on inadequate foods. Fruits and veggies simply don't add up, and the best thing is sardines but you will need 5.4 servings a day, every day.

Now we invented the use of cows milk to supplement this problem. You can get away with 3 to 4 servings a day, but even that is extreme, and its processed, its not natural. I'm not saying don't drink cows milk, we are obviously in a compramised position and we have to. It's obvious we were placed here without adequate food.

So Target food when its available, takes care of these problems, when its not available, what you find is the species eating almost everything within that same food group as though they are searching for the target food. From observation of many species, we know that there never is an experimental staget where a species trys random food, unless he is starving. For some reason all species are claimed to eat the same things, so the combination of those two tells you spceifically that food is not a choice. Animals don't have newsletters, or cell phones, nor do they hold meetings to tell the rest of the species what to eat. Whats odd is that they also seem to know what not to eat. We never find animals picking up rocks and eating them, or dirt, unless they are starving, but its like they allready know before they try it.

If I'm wrong please point me to the diet that explains how a species has an experimental stage. Of course these rules don't apply to domesticated animals as we predict what they eat. If I forget to feed my parakeets, they will eat the poo at the botom of the cage, that doesn't mean they normally eat poo.

So when you find a species eating just about everything in a food group, that is called phase one of hunger. Phase two is where they pick up an additional food group, as in the example of the squirrel in wiki. He has his normal phase one diet but in the off season where they are not available, he starts eating bugs and insects.

Phase three is where a species is eating rocks and dirt and poo, total starvation.

Because it's obvious that species know what they are supposed to be eating, intelligence is required to program them for this. Some might say its the work of god, perhaps, but all I'm saying is it's obvious that intelligence was required. There is no way someone can program a species to know what to eat without that programmer first knowing that the food is available.

reply to post by itsthetooth

We do on the other hand have historical documentation that god exists

LOL Do we now?

Which god/s? Krishna? Anu? Enlil? Kronos? El Elyon? Odin? Zeus?

Originally posted by grainofsand

Originally posted by NihilistSanta

Originally posted by grainofsand

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Morg234

 

But to say that everything happened by chance is nothing short of asinine.

To assert that everything is the result of an unknown divine/energy could be equally considered asinine.
People used to blame earthquakes on gods until we got a better grasp of geological processes.

How do you know they are not caused by God? We know how they happen and not why. This is a lot like the big bang. Its a nice how that pretends to be a why. You only assume the why. See you make the mistake that many others do. You produce nothing of your own and regurgitate ideas and refutations you have picked up from others. You ask for proofs but you ignore proof when offered.

Life is proof.

Your perception of life is not proof.

Sorry if it is too complex for you to understand. You take a reductionist approach to everything and therefor you have missed the bigger picture. You are looking at the nuts on the wing of an airplane with no understanding of aerodynamics that are the driving principles in flight.

There is such a thing as being too skeptical. You possess all of the evidence you need but if you do not have the understanding to interpret the data (life) that is a deficiency on your part.

I love how so many atheist (not all) can not produce ideas of their own but merely poorly reiterate the ideas of others. It allows you to ignore new information that does not gel with your predetermined (through someone else ) faith based speculation. I say faith because I doubt you have personally put anything under scientific verification for yourself and are taking someone else word for it.

The most horrific realization should come from the fact that your assumptions are based mostly on incomplete knowledge gleaned from limited tools which you hold to be truth. Life is truth. It exist we measure it and so far have found it to be such a mathematical uncertainty as to be impossible (with what tools we have) yet it does.

You assert much about me albeit incorrect and mostly ad hominem.

Again you never answered me earlier when I asked you to show me one thing that wasn't created. You are the one backing spontaneous generation (big bang) not I.

I dismissed it as irrelevant, proving nothing. Who created your creator? etc etc
No evidence of any gods.

edit on 1-1-2013 by grainofsand because: (no reason given)

How is it my perception of life? It is simple logic. Life denotes creation since life did not just spontaneously generate from nothing as you posit (where is your evidence btw?). There are numerous examples of creations and not one created itself.

I do make assertions about you but they are aimed more at your thinking than you personally. Again you ask for proofs. One as axiomatic to creation/creator as life yet you are dismissive. Your tactic of answering a question with a question shows that you don't understand your own logic.

You : Show me proof life was created/ of Gods existence.

Me: Life

You: Doesn't count, Irrelevant, Proves nothing.

?????

This is akin to

Me: Show me evidence of gravity?

You: Falling.

Me: Doesnt count, Proves nothing, Irrelevant.

Why because you cant hold it in your hand? The proof for gravity is its effects since we haven't located gravitons. Just as the proof for God is that we have the effect of Life.

reply to post by NihilistSanta

Nowhere in this thread have I specifically promoted big bang theory, nowhere have I said 'there are no gods', it is a sidetrack.
The assertions being made are 'gods exist' therefore the burden of proof falls on those making the statement.
I say 'I do not believe in gods' because the evidence is lacking.
The evidence you present is 'life'

If that 'evidence' satisfies you then good luck with it, I remain unconvinced.

reply to post by Wandering Scribe


"Finally, Africa. Thousands of children starve to death, women are raped and murdered, and men lose life and limb every day because of conditions which God could fix. There are missionaries, Churches, charities, and all manner of believers trying to make the situation better over there; they even deny contraceptives, and abortion. So, by what manner do you measure yourself, and your egotistical prayer as more important to God, then millions of starving children simply asking Him for enough food to feed themselves?"

Typical response^^ from an atheist or whatever you call yourself. "God doesnt exist because the world is not a utopia" get real dude.

Just because you dont feel God's presence in your life doesnt mean that the people who do are wrong. It takes a sad and pathetic individual to trash someone else's beliefs just so they dont have to feel so hollow inside.

This is why I made my earlier post. I just dont get people who feel the need to trash God and religion. What's the point? It's like saying "my dad can beat up your dad." Who cares.

reply to post by Wandering Scribe

You knew exactly what or who I was referring to because I accompanied it within a contextual frame of reference, there was no need to this type of pedantic and facetious response.

The most high God of love with whom Jesus was in relationship with and an expression of, and the creator of the heavens and the earth ie: our father.

There was something seriously wrong with your reply that reveals a very nasty and ugly aspect of your personality.

OK, I have done my homework, perhaps not enough, but enough to make some comment on this OP and the responses to this OP.

I expressed concerns before about posts missing the original point and now with a better idea of what Chris Langan really said or deduced, feel even more sure of my concerns, that have meanwhile also shifted somewhat. And then, on returning to the thread, I see it has diverged even further and is becoming a theological-belief/faith rather than a logical debate.

Here is my main point.
This thread's title is
“Smartest Man in America says God exists”
Now the word used here, “says”, might to some convey that this is a belief that Langan has (a belief in a God). But in fact, it really means that according to Langan's CTMU, there is a logico-mathematical proof that a God exists and Langan's real belief is in his CTMU theory.

It is almost as if using CTMU to prove the existence of a God was for him the ultimate test or ratification of CTMU. As an autodidact, he faced serious odds when trying to get published in any scholarly journal, or gaining favour with “recognised” academics. This proof of the existence of a God hopefully would have changed that – or not.

Langan claims that CTMU is a TOE (a theory of everything) in which mind and reality are linked in mutual dependence at the most basic (axiomatic) level of understanding - an axiom being a premise that is so (self-)evident as to be accepted as true without proof or controversy. He claims that because CTMU is essentially a theory of the relationship between mind and reality, it is a TOE.
Langan explians:
“Since reality always has the ability to surprise us, the task of scientific observation can never be completed with absolute certainty, and this means that a comprehensive theory of reality cannot be based on scientific observation alone. Instead, it must be based on the process of making scientific observations in general, and this process is based on the relationship of mind and reality.”

Then, based on CTMU, Langan deduces the existence of a God. Yet this “Mathematical Argument For The Existence Of God” is by no means undisputed and according to his critics, has many flaws such as:
* the missing distinction between conceptual and material existence
* using in his proof, the logical equivalent of dividing by zero: for example, existence implying the existence of, and in fact also the nonexistence of, nonexistence (sorry, could not resist that).
* The original claim is that the god is super-intelligent or omniscient but omniscience itself fails this test. To know everything, you must know about that which you do not know – and this is a logical contradiction. In other words, you can only know all that you know, and for example, you would not know if another god existed.
RationalWiki Physics Forums

... and before this fuels another theological debate, let us use logic here and remember,
the title of this tread is about Langan Believing there is a God, because, he claims CTMU proves it – not because he just believes it.

... or in other words, this his an attempt at QED, not, I saw it and therefore believe it.

I could go on but nuf4now.

**

reply to post by KenArten


Star for you Ken. In fact, it is ironic that you bring this up because i was thinking earlier just today how maybe i should have framed the title "Smartest Man... *believes* God exists" rather than *says* so as to not be as inflammatory.

BUT you are right imo when you point out that his "belief" is from his theory, not as a Religious personal belief kind of thing. In fact, he even says in my op's quote at the bottom that he is non-denominational because he needs to base it on logic, or something to that effect.

I was honestly interested more in a discussion of his theory and whether or not it had, and to what degree do people think it had validity or made sense.

The title used of course i realized would spark quite the reaction the way it was framed, and really i should have known that it was bound to lead to the classic religious people vs. atheists war of words, and to be honest i sort of regret posing the question with the wording i did as it does not really convey what i was getting at and makes it sound like i'm some hard core religious person taking a shot at atheists or something.

Anyways, thanks for that Ken. Excellent post.

reply to post by Nicks87

"Finally, Africa. Thousands of children starve to death, women are raped and murdered, and men lose life and limb every day because of conditions which God could fix. There are missionaries, Churches, charities, and all manner of believers trying to make the situation better over there; they even deny contraceptives, and abortion. So, by what manner do you measure yourself, and your egotistical prayer as more important to God, then millions of starving children simply asking Him for enough food to feed themselves?"

Typical response^^ from an atheist or whatever you call yourself. "God doesnt exist because the world is not a utopia" get real dude.

Just because you dont feel God's presence in your life doesnt mean that the people who do are wrong. It takes a sad and pathetic individual to trash someone else's beliefs just so they dont have to feel so hollow inside.

This is why I made my earlier post. I just dont get people who feel the need to trash God and religion. What's the point? It's like saying "my dad can beat up your dad." Who cares.

More astounding hypocrisy here I can't help but laugh and point at.

He's not mocking your beliefs; he's merely mentioning why he doesn't feel the need to believe them. But instead of refute his arguments you attempt to "trash his beliefs."

He's not 'trashing' it in one bit. He's only saying he doesn't believe it and then mentions why. Do you not see your own duplicity?

It seems you need others to believe as you to justify your faith here and then you try to 'trash' them when they don't. It's astounding to me.

reply to post by Runciter33


I have to agree with you; and I am unable to deny that I am a contributor part of this 'atheist vs. believer' debate and have taken this thread quite a ways off topic. For that I apologize.

I mean, I think Langan's logic is valid, but not in any way sound. His conclusions are possible but scientifically unfalsifiable and end up being merely a creative endeavour into metaphysics.