Fiscal Cliff put in a much better perspective

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


If you and I sat down face to face we could work an agreement. It's incredibly frustrating to see congress unable to do the same.

I didn't see the OP as a conversation starter in the least, he (she?) tried to correct the title at the behest of someone else but was encouraged to change it back so as not to seem too accomodating. Agreement is some sort of problem when it comes to political discussions these days and is really, really unfortunate.

reply to post by links234

Fair enough.. You and I have certainly debated a lot before and even agreed once or twice I think. (small..tiny things... shhh... I got a rep to uphold! )

Seriously... I think you're right in that reasonable people from all flavors of politics ought to be able to sit down over a good meal and hash out some realistic ideas. Oh, it'd get loud and it's get downright touchy at times ...but you know? I'll bet a good group of folks like us would have viable and functional ideas at the end of it.

Of course, the key there is...finding people whose main goal is that end result ...not the effort to beat each other to mush in the process of getting to it. Isn't that where things get so ...complicated..these days?

I always say we could and very well should cut our military budget,
we have spent so much for so long, its time to tone it down, not
to dangerous levels of course but we are spending more than all
the other nations on the planet combined......... do we REALLY need
to be that safe lol? why not just spend a bit more than the top 2
combined? that way you could in theory take on the two biggest
standing military and still be ok but not so much that your
literally breaking yourself for some kind of safe feeling that
isn't even a reality.

Modern day standing armies are not the
danger, its more small groups because its harder to stop 10
guys with a plan and a bomb then it is to not notice someone
moving 200,000 troops. or high tech weapons which we keep
a close eye on anyway.

reply to post by links234


I got a very good laugh at the last line.

If this did happen to me i would sue the city for damages and hire an attorney and let the utilities commission deal with it. Why should i get ****ty hands. Once the sewerage enters the city system it is their responsibility to properly dispose of it.

reply to post by links234

Debt will implode this nation as it has imploded Europe.

Tax and debt slavery is the problem, not the solution, not even a crappy solution.

Originally posted by jough626

Originally posted by SpaDe_
This is hilarious and sad at the same time. It's hilarious because it's so simple a kindergartner could figure out the problem, and it's sad because the people that we put in charge of this country are so stupid that they can't understand the problem.

Not to be "that guy", but it's a lot more complex than that.

The money gets spent on people (medicare/food stamps/blah blah), other country's (foreign aid/medical improvments), and funding to protect people in the U.S.

People want cuts, but nobody want to be the one to actually make the cuts, and NOBODY wants anything to be cut from themselves. The poor want the rich to pay more, the rich want the poor to stop being poor.

Fact is, we've ALL become fat and bloated with the life styles we all enjoy. It doesn't matter how much you earn in a year, we all are living the high life. No "fiscal cliff" game changer is actually going to change anything, it's just more smoke to make people feel good (and to give them a finger they can point to show why their life is not what they think it's supposed to be).

It is that simple because it doesn't matter whether anyone wants to cut or not, the market is going to force them.

All we are arguing over is are we going to choose to cut spending in an orderly manner, or just let the market make the decisions for us.

reply to post by links234

If that's the way you want to see it then I could argue we have a revenue problem, seeing as taxing everyone an additional 20% will seem to do more to effect the deficit than just cutting programs.

This just shows your level of ignorance. Taxing everyone 20% would not do a damn things its a drop in the bucket . You do not understand the monetary system. It is debt/credit based that must continue to expand to remain viable but its does not expand by creating real wealth it expands by increasing the debt/credit in the way of creating new money via loans and printing hence the astronomical inflationary bubble... This is why there will be no cuts. What they call cuts is increases just less of an increase then they first projected. And the ignorant populace falls for it every time. This is why they will never stop raising the debt ceiling and this is why all the Fiscal cliff rhetoric is just political theater to appease the masses.

Ultimately, the picture in the OP is a rehashed argument over the federal budget dating back to the mid-90's. The fiscal cliff is just another point to bring it up, apparently.

More ridiculousness from you, are you trying to say the federal budget has nothing to do with the fiscal cliff? As I said it is all political theater to justify their increasing the budget and obfuscate the facts to the masses.

If you wanted to put the fiscal cliff in a 'better perspective' then why not explain what all the tax increases will do? Or how tiny of a chunk it takes out of the overall debt? That other guy and I have tried to explain it to you like you're five, buy you continue to ignore us in favor of your own deluded opinion on what the discussion should be about.

I already have explained it before you even brought it up but you are either ignorant or have some agenda to obfuscate things. The OP simplifies the root problem well for the masses to understand better. As I have said several times now there are no cuts just lessor increases and raising taxes is a joke it won't even buy a month of time.. We went off the cliff a long time ago and are heading to the bottom of the ravine.

Another simple explanation is it is like living on a credit card and never making any payments on it and when the credit limit is reached then the limit is raised and you can live for another week or month on the card but eventually you know it will all end. This is exactly what the government is doing by debasing the currency and they can do nothing else they will continue to increase the debt till the wheels fall off. They could stop now and it would happen immediately but they choose to postpone it for as long as they can which will make the crash all the more worse. That is why they are preparing with DHS and underground shelters etc. they know it will end soon and the masses will be looking to hang them.

Edit to add: I don't believe the debt is as serious a problem as some of you do and I strongly believe that austerity through budget cuts like those coming in the next few days are the absolute wrong direction we need to be going.

LOL Well then you are delusional just like they are if you do not think it is a serious problem. It is the most serious financial and economic problem the US has ever faced, it will be far worse then the great depression! increasing the debt will buy a little more time but as I said the crash will be all the more worse the longer we wait... But fly on Little Wing...

reply to post by gladtobehere


The only reason it's been a problem in Europe and not the US is because we went the route of spending more money with the stimulus and car company bailouts. We (the US) kept our tax base robust and even managed to lower taxes at the same time without suffering total financial collapse.

What Greece and Portugal have done is the complete opposite. They saw their debt as a problem and, in trying to resolve it, they raised taxes while cutting spending (which is exactly what the fiscal cliff will do). Those countries reduced their tax base, forced people onto government programs (thereby increasing the cost to the government) and ultimately faced a greater mountain of debt than they had before.

Actually, if you want perspective on the fiscal cliff, just read the second paragraph of this post.

reply to post by jhn7537


I would like to line up every politician next to a cliff and push them off physically...that is what I think of their fiscal bs.

reply to post by jhn7537


I am also thankful that the government are gettin pay raises. I cant sleep at night worrying about their financial woes. Why do we as Ameicans put up with this?

Financially broken by design. Force the poverty & move people from the rural areas into pack & stack homes. Cant afford gas for your car? Move closer to work, the government will have a micro-apartment & bicycle ready for you. It is all by design, it is to late to fix. Agenda 21 & a central government is moving in. They are prepared to enslave, and Americans will not be prepared so they will look to the govern for the answer. GAME OVER!

reply to post by jhn7537

Anyone in government , and economists, and anyone who has done any research KNOWS you cannot compare a countries "balance sheet" to a household budget. This is a trick done by those who use it to con you into following their fiscal policy. That policy always (so far historically in ever country for the last 100 years) leads to increased wealth for the few, increased debt and increased poverty for the many. That fiscal policy is ideological and NOT meant to solve the problem DUH

So you have a choice, look at what works or listen to the simplistic household budget.

you know what I dont get... and this applys to the UK and the US


why cant we look back at the countrys accounts, when we were in financial surplus, and see how those books match up to todays


see where we're spending money now, that we weren't then, and what revenue streams in the tax system have grown/reduced etc

Of course national debt and fiscal cliff is two sides of the same coin. Cause and effect really. As someone already pointed out what we see is the political theatre at play. What at all cost must be avoided is zero growth or even worse negative growth. Than serious problem w the us economy is close.

At the same time they barely have any tools in the toolbox left to stimulate growth. In theory a state can never go bankrupt all they have to do is raise taxes. This is of course only in the models this works. But they look at the income side ie taxes. If they raise taxes they limit growth and people get angry. So this is in reality a hot potato because if you want to raise taxes and maintain growth you must raise the taxes for the richest few only. This creates a whole lot of fuzz because they are not so keen on this solution. So then they look at the cost side. But not much seem to be accomplished here either due to politics really. I think a thorough independent investigation where the tax payers money go would be very interesting indeed.

They are playing chicken race and are fully aware of what their doing

reply to post by jhn7537


I absolutly LOVE this, common sense stuff. Thanks

The problem is thinking that fed gov't debt works in the same way household debt does. It doesn't. To be frank, gov't debt, as far as 'debt' goes means nothing and can be resolved tomorrow, if it were truly a concern. So long as the gov't can afford to make its payments, which it can because its the sole printer of its own money, defualt will never occur.

Also in terms of resolving, google proof platinum coin seigniorage

Ok I think I got this whole Fiscal Cliff EZ explaination thingy worked out.

Instead of using a house filled with poo .. I like to think on greener pastures...

Lesson 3:

You come home one day and find that your lawn is not mowed from the kid next door ( that you already paid an annual sum for ).

You tell the kid "um..I didnt get my lawn serviced this week.".

He responds "Well I need more money from you if you want me to cut your grass .. you see I bought this cool Mower5000GT with zero point turn and auto weed whacking abilities with GPS and an IPod docking station.".

"Ok..well I dont need that for my 20'x 20' front yard .. just a simple mower will do." You explain how you can only afford 5 bucks a week for your particular lawn service.

He Retorts "Yea .. but I have that Big house accros the street to mow .. and he has ONLY been giving me $2.00 a week. He will not spend a dime more than that, so I have to ask you for more money.". He adds "And Im NOT going to give up my GPS or Ipod docking station on my mower5000GT.".

You exclaim .."Well why not just pressure the guy accros the street to pay more money to mow HIS Lawn!"

His Reply is "He loaned me the money for my mower5000.".

.. ..

OK I got it now .. thanks everyone for helping me understand ...

JG.

PS. For the OP .. there are problems with the subtractions of 0's to the 8th. You see there is NO way your going to pay off the Trillions. You might be able to cut down on that hundreds of thousands .. but NOT Trills.

Its not about $$ anymore .. That horse has left the Stable..

reply to post by jhn7537


We will keep raising the ceiling until it reaches space at this point. What people are failing to understand is this is planned. They will cause a crisis and then come to the rescue.



We need to wake up and fast so when they come with the solutions we can say no thank you. Many people still want to believe this is just a cycle or something. They are wrong and time will prove me right. They needed some sort of crisis and economic seems to fit the bill.



For anyone who does not believe me please Google Weimar Republic. They did the exact same thing and guess what happened. Back 80 years ago they caused a problem and guess what the solution was......The Nazi's.

Originally posted by SpaDe_
This is hilarious and sad at the same time. It's hilarious because it's so simple a kindergartner could figure out the problem, and it's sad because the people that we put in charge of this country are so stupid that they can't understand the problem.

ah, that's where i think most people fail at their analysis of the situation. the politicians are far from stupid (they own you and i don't they) so one would wonder what the problem then is. the problem is, it's running just like they want it to, into the ground. they wont fix what isn't broke (to\for them) the debt based fractional reserve banking system they create and back, is going the route they expected and now they just need a little more time in order to take what's left, just before they impose austerity on the American people.

our lives, on a global scale, will continue to deteriorate at the pace it's been, perhaps speeding up on occasion. a slow but steady kill of any and all luxury's of our lives. less food, less medicine, less work, less govt.money (there are those who actually need that), everything good we have come to appreciate, will be dwindling at a slow but steady pace.

nothing good can come back because it's been planned not to. they know the current system has an end and i believe it's their goal to collapse the current one and like a stab in the back, impose a new one so they can reset the fractional reserve banking clock and start creating new debt globally.

I will be printing this and posting it in each of my kids' bedrooms.

And the mirror in my bathroom where my wife spends a lot of time