People need to be more conceited / self-interested... Wake up! (I make some good points!)

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posted on Dec, 28 2012 @ 08:46 AM
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Originally posted by Trexter Ziam

Originally posted by Mystery_Lady
Do not resist an evil person.


As in "Don't Feed the Trolls" - especially the ones who start threads like this.


I know I shouldn't, but it is too much fun sometimes.


Ok, on a serious note. I'll give that the op isn't a troll. The op does have some very disturbing ideas though.

I'm going to have to stop here shortly anyhow, because I have things to do.
edit on 28/12/2012 by Mystery_Lady because: (no reason given)




posted on Dec, 28 2012 @ 11:42 AM
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My belief is that cats can teach us everything about socializing.

Simply observe their raw, untamed attitudes towards each other.
And you will see that it is OKAY to lash at somebody when it is called for.

Yes, it's true: We can sometimes enable someone's bad attitude by supporting them unconditionally.
Sometimes love is not the solution.
I'm not promoting hate, either.



posted on Dec, 28 2012 @ 12:29 PM
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Though I don't support the opinion that such "self interested" behavior is always necessarily beneficial, I am surprised that so many don't see it as EVER beneficial

Like the mirroring reaction- that instinctive draw to re-act towards someone as they have towards you exists for a reason! It exists in most social animals. It is an important part of relational comprehension.

Kids learn how their own behaviors and acts effect others this way.
A kid who screams and hits others at the top of their lungs all the time,
usually does so because their caretakers are always speaking quietly and gently and never ever raising a hand to them.
The day an adult comes around and yells back with the same force, and slaps their butt, they suddenly have their reflection- they suddenly can empathize with others they have been abusing. Suddenly, there is recognition and acknowledgement from the outside world.

It is surprising how quickly a child can calm down and begin communicating for real then. I watched it happen to my half brother, who had been a monster until the age of 5 when he suddenly had an au pair that loved him enough to put him over his knee and give him the first spanking of his life. He became steadily more socially acceptable and happy. My stepdad got very jealous, because the kid became so attached and in love with this guy (well, the guy is my husband now).

But before that moment he felt like he was screaming and no one was hearing or seeing him.
There are lots of instances where people are giving out exactly what they want to recieve,
and we might be refusing to give it to them out of our own selfish desires to think of ourselves as morally superior (or with a pass to heaven or something...). It's not love, it's self rightious indignation.

And anyone who doesn't see how nurturing and encouraging dependancy,( so that autonomy and independance is stunted) can be a bad thing...that seems too evident and basic to even try to describe!

It all depends upon the individuals and circumstances- you can't hide in your bubble of self rightiousness and expect to do much good for anyone but your own ego.
edit on 28-12-2012 by Bluesma because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 28 2012 @ 12:58 PM
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reply to post by Dan001
 



Originally posted by Dan001
My belief is that cats can teach us everything about socializing.

Simply observe their raw, untamed attitudes towards each other.
And you will see that it is OKAY to lash at somebody when it is called for.

Yes, it's true: We can sometimes enable someone's bad attitude by supporting them unconditionally.
Sometimes love is not the solution.
I'm not promoting hate, either.


Yes, allowing them to take advantage and keep controlling you - is saying it's "ok" to live in this delusion. It is a delusion reality does not work that way that you can just take advantage of everyone and get what you want. If you don't lash out eventually, that person will have a rude awakening.


reply to post by Mystery_Lady
 




Originally posted by Mystery_Lady

Then you misread the Bible. There are those who say Jesus said an eye for and eye and a tooth for a tooth. That is taken way out of context. What Jesus said You have heard that it was said an eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth.


I wasn't talking about Jesus, I was talking about the god yahweh (god of israel) in the bible talking to his people - not jesus who came later born from mary.



Originally posted by Mystery_Lady
He showed the people what it was to truly love.


He showed people submission. How to be taken advantage of. If someone slaps you - turn the other cheek, but they may just slap you on the other side, what then? At some point you'd have to take ACTION whether it is hitting back or telling the authorities.


Originally posted by Mystery_Lady
Some people can become so independent that they will refuse any help even when it is needed.


Well, I wasn't promoting this. I already admitted that sometimes help is needed. I just don't believe in giving help without teaching them to be independent.

The whole "give a man a fish , he eats for one day, teach a man to fish he can keep eating"

If it is not possible, you need to use common sense and see what options to take from regarding the situation.



Originally posted by Mystery_Lady
Which society would more easily fall into a collectivism controlled environment? A society where people worked as a group, trust in each other, and gain strength in bonds they created with each other? Or a society that is aloof with each other because they are more concerned about themselves than anything else, their idea of help actually pushes people away from each other, and hardly any bonds are created between people? I say a society were people push each other away as in the one you suggested in your opening post.


The society more likely to fall into a collectivism-controlled environment is the one where people are grouped together and brainwashed together to believe in the same ideas. What better way to control people then to have them all together hanging on to an idea and therefore inviting scolding if a person changes their belief?



Originally posted by Mystery_Lady
A group that has bonded together, that doesn't force people to conform, and doesn't use their force to over power others is even stronger.


Obviously, if you are in a "group" you would have to conform; there is something that is uniting all of them and if that idea is "morality (compassion / love) eventually there will be disagreements with what IS truly compassionate and loving. Just look at how religions change and are created over time.



Originally posted by Mystery_Lady
I help people, and others have helped me as it should be. Giving hearts and giving souls are strong.


If you don't look out for yourself, there would be nothing to give anyway...


Originally posted by Mystery_Lady
Why do you think being dependant equals freeloading?


Dependency equals bondage. You have to depend on another person possibly even beg that person , when you could have taken the time to become independent to do it yourself instead of running back to that person all the time.


Originally posted by Mystery_Lady
Sometimes much easier said than done, especially when you didn't start it in the first place.


Obviously, I'm talking about the one who is starting the fight. If they don't like drama in their life, they can stop picking fights with everyone. If you don't like it, you can choose to attack back, reason with them, or get away from them. It is your choice. I just don't see anything good about allowing yourself to be take advantage of in the name of "turning the other cheek".



Originally posted by Mystery_Lady
No, that person finally woke up to reality.


The same "reality" we were programmed to believe in the first place.



posted on Dec, 28 2012 @ 03:12 PM
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i wake up after 8 hours sleep and this thread is still chuggin. Never under estimated the power of a conceited Mirror of truth. Mirror Mirror on the wall who is the fairess of them all...............................
edit on 28-12-2012 by AthlonSavage because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 28 2012 @ 03:45 PM
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reply to post by AthlonSavage
 


It's not surprising. Unpopular perspectives are more likely to get more responses since people would like to know the reasoning behind it.

Ironically, people are just jumping in the thread just basically saying "it is bad just to care about yourself!" which obviously proves they did not read the original post...

Meh.



posted on Dec, 28 2012 @ 03:49 PM
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reply to post by arpgme
 




It's not surprising. Unpopular perspectives are more likely to get more responses since people would like to know the reasoning behind it.

Ironically, people are just jumping in the thread just basically saying "it is bad just to care about yourself!" which obviously proves they did not read the original post...

Meh.

I think the posters have been fair. Your arguments didnt stand up well. The reflection in the mirror was not a rose.


edit on 28-12-2012 by AthlonSavage because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 28 2012 @ 07:34 PM
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So WHAT does ATS think about being more conceited & self-interested...

Four pages, two flags & two stars.

Says it ALL right there....

On the PLUS side:

You ditched what must have been one of the most ANNOYING avatars in the history ATS.


THANK YOU!!!


I KNOW mine sucks as well...






edit on 28-12-2012 by Murgatroid because: I felt like it..



posted on Dec, 29 2012 @ 01:36 AM
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reply to post by Murgatroid
 



Originally posted by Murgatroid
On the PLUS side:

You ditched what must have been one of the most ANNOYING avatars in the history ATS.


THANK YOU!!!


I KNOW mine sucks as well...


Well, thank you.

Your avatar is not that bad, it did scare me though when I first saw it and was not expecting it to change like that.


reply to post by AthlonSavage
 



Originally posted by AthlonSavage

.
I think the posters have been fair. Your arguments didnt stand up well. The reflection in the mirror was not a rose.


edit on 28-12-2012 by AthlonSavage because: (no reason given)


And yet you STILL didn't show the ILLOGICALNESS of my arguments. I'm starting to think this is an emotional reaction, you just don't like it but can't disprove my logic so you attack it by calling it "twisted" without actually disproving it.



posted on Dec, 29 2012 @ 02:56 AM
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Originally posted by Murgatroid
So WHAT does ATS think about being more conceited & self-interested...

Four pages, two flags & two stars.

Says it ALL right there....



What it says to me is that many people pay a lot more attention to the way something is worded,
than to the concept within.
Words carry emotional charges and association,
that can deviate the rational mind.
Arpgme, IMO, often comes up with topics that might be interesting points of discussion,
provocative essentially because he gets into dual thought,
interesting because he attempts to escape them (trying to see light in the dark good in the bad positive in the negative....)
But I think his wording throws some people off.
"Conceited" and "self interested" have pretty strong negative emotional charges in our culture,
and using them tends to accentuate the negative side of the behaviors refered to,
Instead of help the positive side emerge.

Take the words out, and most people can grasp- encouragement of independance and autonomy IS often done for the sake of the other.

Keeping someone dependant (trough aiding them too much) can be done for very very selfish reasons! Primarily, to retain power over that individual. (in latin cultures, I noticed this is the norm for mothers, to keep a strong illegit power over their offspring even as adults.)

Refusing to reflect to a person their own behavior can also be done for very selfish reasons- slave mentality has it's own very stinky nasty side, using passive aggressivity and subtle manipulation.



posted on Dec, 29 2012 @ 03:21 AM
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reply to post by Bluesma
 


A star for you Bluesma! You figured a couple of things out about why I speak the way I do saying controversial things.



Originally posted by Bluesma
What it says to me is that many people pay a lot more attention to the way something is worded,
than to the concept within.
Words carry emotional charges and association,
that can deviate the rational mind.


Yup. I wanted to see if people would be open minded. To see if they would actually go beyond their labels of words being "good" or "bad" (their EMOTIONAL reactions to words) and actually see the concept I was explaining. Most didn't.



Originally posted by Bluesma
Arpgme, IMO, often comes up with topics that might be interesting points of discussion,
provocative essentially because he gets into dual thought,
interesting because he attempts to escape them (trying to see light in the dark good in the bad positive in the negative....)


This is to see if I can inspire people into neutrality from their dualistic way of seeing things. One of the ways I try to escape the "duality" is by showing the good side of the so-called bad, and the bad side of the so-called good, but most are not open minded to see other points of views when it comes to certain topics.

By seeing the good in the bad and the bad in the good, there is more hope for a neutrality.


Originally posted by Bluesma
Keeping someone dependant (trough aiding them too much) can be done for very very selfish reasons! Primarily, to retain power over that individual. (in latin cultures, I noticed this is the norm for mothers, to keep a strong illegit power over their offspring even as adults.)


And at the same time, it is dis-empowering even though they gain control over the person. If you had self love and knew your strength, there would be no need to keep someone under your control - you would be independent and wouldn't need a "slave" - the slave would be independent and wouldn't need a "salve master".

The same thing goes for self-esteem. If you had it, you wouldn't need to belittle other.

(Not "You", I'm speaking in general)


Originally posted by Bluesma
Refusing to reflect to a person their own behavior can also be done for very selfish reasons


Yes. One example can get, not wanting to waste time/energy/effort being in a conflict, so for your own self interest you walk away instead of reflecting back to them their actions so they can learn.

I guess I was just trying to explain how "forgiving" can be bad in some cases - such as a person who KEEPS attacking and you become taken advantage of, and I was trying to show how "retaliation" can be good in some cases - such as it helps the person to reflect upon their actions and to see the damage they cause others.

It is a person's call how they wish to go about it, I just want people to be aware of the good and bad of BOTH sides.

My main point is loving yourself though having pride. Increasing your self-esteem to improve your self and to free yourself from the control of peer pressure by having confidence in yourself.

Like I said before though, loving yourself does NOT mean that you MUST be rude and nasty to others.

This is a misconception...


In fact I see setting out to harm people as unnatural. Natural would be to be yourself and to survive.



posted on Dec, 29 2012 @ 09:21 AM
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Sorry, no time to read the whole thread right this second, so marking it for future reading with a comment.

Balance in all things

On one hand, from first hand experience I can tell you it is horrible to be a doormat. Caring more about everyone else, and not taking time to worry about your own needs is a recipe for psychological disaster.

On the other hand, also from personal experience, it is just as destructive to not care about anything but your own needs and wants, while ignoring those around you.

It is optimal to find a healthy balance between these two extremes.

Balance in all things



posted on Dec, 29 2012 @ 07:45 PM
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reply to post by arpgme
 





And yet you STILL didn't show the ILLOGICALNESS of my arguments. I'm starting to think this is an emotional reaction, you just don't like it but can't disprove my logic so you attack it by calling it "twisted" without actually disproving it.


Oh what a tangled web the OP weaves.



posted on Dec, 30 2012 @ 02:45 AM
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reply to post by AthlonSavage
 


How did I know that you would not respond with anything useful to this discussion, and that you would avoid proving the illogicalness of what I said instead of just talking about it?



posted on Dec, 30 2012 @ 03:04 AM
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reply to post by arpgme
 





How did I know that you would not respond with anything useful to this discussion, and that you would avoid proving the illogicalness of what I said instead of just talking about it?



You cannot expect people are naive enough just to walk into your web. You need to toughen up kiddo the world we live in is illogica and sometimes very very bad.



posted on Dec, 30 2012 @ 03:18 AM
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reply to post by AthlonSavage
 


I am not forcing anyone to walk anywhere. I am just expressing my view point. It is up to the individual as to whether they will accept it or not.

All I am asking you is to do is to support your claims. You calmed that it was "twisted" logic, and you still failed to show any evidence of that. All you did was criticize the view points as a "web" and "twisted logic" but you did not demonstrate it.



posted on Dec, 30 2012 @ 03:23 AM
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reply to post by arpgme
 


Although I agree that a person becomes stronger and much more capable of handling things and issues if they work them out themselves...everyone at some time needs a helping hand. One cannot go through life in a vacuum and to attempt to do so is self defeating.

Different people have different strengths and one day you may need the help of a person who is capable in a different area than you are.

Split Infinity



posted on Dec, 30 2012 @ 03:25 AM
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reply to post by arpgme
 





I am not forcing anyone to walk anywhere. I am just expressing my view point. It is up to the individual as to whether they will accept it or not.

And i expressed my point of view in response that you spin a tangled web of twisted mind logic.



All I am asking you is to do is to support your claims. You calmed that it was "twisted" logic, and you still failed to show any evidence of that. All you did was criticize the view points as a "web" and "twisted logic" but you did not demonstrate it.


All i have to do to demonstrate it is to ask a person (not you) to go and read through all of this thread. Most people will at the end; as is indicated through the postings do not side with you beliefs and have been para phrasing my original term "twisted logic" to describe what they feel about your belief system presented. You need to chill out and untwist Sis.


edit on 30-12-2012 by AthlonSavage because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 30 2012 @ 03:54 AM
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reply to post by AthlonSavage
 



Originally posted by AthlonSavage
And i expressed my point of view in response that you spin a tangled web of twisted mind logic.


The difference is, I gave reasons as to WHY I have this point of view. You did not. You just made multiple posts repeating yourself calling it "twisted logic" without explaining WHY at all.


Originally posted by AthlonSavage.
All i have to do to demonstrate it is to ask a person (not you) to go and read through all of this thread. Most people will at the end; as is indicated through the postings do not side with you beliefs


Disagreement does NOT equal twisted logic. You would have to explain WHY it is twisted logic.

To say that it must be twisted logic because people do not agree - is actually a logical fallacy called

An Appeal To The Majority

reply to post by SplitInfinity
 



Originally posted by SplitInfinity
reply to post by arpgme
 

...everyone at some time needs a helping hand. One cannot go through life in a vacuum and to attempt to do so is self defeating.


Yup. I understand this. I wasn't clear with my views. I mean to empower them, don't dis-empower them by making them depend on you, encourage them to be stronger to be able to be FREE (independent). Yes, people will need help here and there.



posted on Dec, 30 2012 @ 04:02 AM
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reply to post by arpgme
 





Disagreement does NOT equal twisted logic. You would have to explain WHY it is twisted logic.

To say that it must be twisted logic because people do not agree - is actually a logical fallacy called


Theres no point arguing with narcisstic logica because the nature of its origin is self evident, a Huge Ego. The source of your wisdom or God, or silent knowledge or whatever you wish to call it is clear. The centre of the web in whcih you sit and deliver the venmous sermon is the Ego throne. An on the Ego throne the False Prophet sat and judged all those around her not worthy of understanding the preaching, but was not a preaching of peoples goodwill to eachother but a eulogy of life for the dead.
edit on 30-12-2012 by AthlonSavage because: (no reason given)





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