Man Shown A Once Atheist Author Now In Hades

Here we have some teachings by Jesus about what it means to be led by the Holy Spirit

John 15
15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other.


Here we have Paul expounding on this truth for us in Romans 8:

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.
12 So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

how do you account for hell and suffering? not a lot of "love" there. you could call it tuff love but then it all would be love and then love would be nothing.

Jesus said He is the express image of God. If we've seen Him, we've seen the Father.

I don't see anything but love in Jesus's deeds and actions. Do you?

He is the best way for us to comprehend the Father's love and character. That's one reason why He came to us.

these above definitions are so ... useless. i mean, really. nobody agrees on what "right", "truth", and "love" even are.

It's not something you are likely to come to a conclusion on your own, relying on your own intellect and feelings. Both of those senses are limited and fickle, no matter how keen they may be.

God's word is likened to a sword sharper than any on earth, able to divide truth from falsehood.
Only He, His word given to you, can cut through the veil of darkness to reveal what is true from what is false.

The scripture was written by those who walked in an incredible level of intimacy with God, the likes of which few obtain in a lifetime. But they still do exist, operating in signs and wonders today, and they will point you back to the truth of the scripture.

To define your divinity in terms of words that are little understood or even less agreed upon is without any practical value.

God is truth, and God is love, even though our world cannot agree on what either of those mean at times, God is not in dispute about what they mean.
His Holy Spirit is what will reveal to you what truth is and what true love looks like.

To that end, the scriptures will guide you in what God's sacrificial love and uncompromising adherance to truth looks like.
Ultimately it is the Holy Spirit that is our teacher, but mature mentors and scripture help guide us along the way and speed up our development.
It also serves as a truth and character check, allowing us to check what we think we have gotten against what God has already revealed to others through His Holy Spirit. Because God does not change, His Truth never changes. He won't tell you something that will be in conflict with what is revealed through His Son in the new testament.

your own scripture tells you that we are "made in God's image" and the Alchemists say "as below, so above". This is a very strong clue that God is more (and prolly less) than love, truth, and right. Much more complex. much more concrete.

I don't follow what you are trying to say here.

We are made in the image of God, but our image has been corrupted. We are meant to be a reflection of God's image to the world around us, but few of us attain that completely.
Jesus is the what it looks like when someone walks in the fullness of who God created them to be, in perfect and unbroken communication with God at all times, never coming into agreement with the world or demons, never allowing his own ego to take over.
He says he only did what He saw the Father doing, that He only said what He heard the Father saying.
He modeled for us what our relationship with God is suppose to be like. Complete surrender to His will, because only then can we fully manifest God's character of Love, Truth, Righteousness.

i submit to you that all creatures are of God whether they know it, want it, or believe it, and that the only difference is that some acknowledge (or a struck by a bolt from God, which still happens by the way) and *choose* to travel that path, while others shy from fear or discomfort and hunger. Those that shy become ill, both in body and in mind.

We are all God's creatures.
All are called to walk according to God's will.
Not everyone chooses to do it; and fear, or a hunger for their own desires, seem to be the biggest reasons why.
Those who don't choose to walk with God will likely suffer ill in a variety of ways, and it is sure they will die.

So, generally, your statement there would be in agreement with scripture, minus the part about that being "the only difference".
There are other consequences associated with being in rebellion to God and other benefits to being submitted to Him.
One way leads to destruction, the other leads to life.

Originally posted by Rise27

Originally posted by galactix
the one says : "trust what you feel is right" and the other, "trust what was written down in the past by other humans"
how does one tell the difference between "according to what demons and the world tell you is right" and " who recorded what they were told to say" which is then transferred to you via "the world".

pretty tricky game, if you ask me.

i think i'll stick to what my feelings tell me.

It can be a very tricky game if you still have large parts of you that are self centered or enslaved to rebellious mindsets and desires.
That is precisely why it's dangerous to only go by what you feel or think is right, both your feelings and your mind can be used to deceive you (either by rebellious spirits, or your own rebellious soul) if they aren't wholly subject to the Holy Spirit of God.

Proverbs 14:12
There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death.

When Jesus said "love your enemies", this is not something that seemed right to most people. But their perception of right and wrong was based in spiritual ignorance. If they saw things from God's perspective, knew what He knew, felt the way God did towards everyone, instead of being guided by other influences, then they would understand why it's necessary to love your enemies, forgive those who have hurt you, and bless those who curse you.



How do you tell if someone is led by the Holy Spirit?

Jesus tells us that we will know them by their fruits.
Someone who is led by the Holy Spirit, living by the Holy Spirit, will manifest the fruit of the Holy Spirit in their life.

When you find those people, ask them about the source of their love, peace, and joy.
God will back up these people led by His Spirit with signs and wonders too, as a testimony to His truth.

If you want to know the truth, you can ask Jesus to reveal it to you. He promises that if you ask and seek that you will find, if you are sincere in knowing the truth.

edit on 28-12-2012 by Rise27 because: (no reason given)

edit on 28-12-2012 by Rise27 because: (no reason given)

i'm sorry 27, but you completely failed to address my points.

"That is precisely why it's dangerous to only go by what you feel or think is right, both your feelings and your mind can be used to deceive you"

then there is nothing left but your word and the word of past humans to guide me? i cannot trust my own feelings?

that's just silly, bro.

you just basically said "you cannot trust your own mind or feelings: here read this".
this is a recipe for slavery.

"Someone who is led by the Holy Spirit, living by the Holy Spirit, will manifest the fruit of the Holy Spirit in their life."
you do not describe said fruit and the above statement says nothing.

i am disappoint.

i will end this conversation with some words from a man who pushed the envelope, who lived in the present and tried to make sense of the nonsensical:

In the forest God met the Stag-beetle. "Hold! Wor-
ship me!" quoth God. "For I am All-Great, All-
Good, All Wise....The stars are but sparks from
the forges of My smiths...."
"Yea, verily and Amen," said the Stag-beetle, "all
this do I believe, and that devoutly."
"Then why do you not worship Me?"
"Because I am real and your are only imaginary."
But the leaves of the forest rustled with the laughter
of the wind.
Said Wind and Wood: "They neither of them know
anything!"

Originally posted by Rise27

these above definitions are so ... useless. i mean, really. nobody agrees on what "right", "truth", and "love" even are.

It's not something you are likely to come to a conclusion on your own, relying on your own intellect and feelings. Both of those senses are limited and fickle, no matter how keen they may be.

God's word is likened to a sword sharper than any on earth, able to divide truth from falsehood.
Only He, His word given to you, can cut through the veil of darkness to reveal what is true from what is false.

The scripture was written by those who walked in an incredible level of intimacy with God, the likes of which few obtain in a lifetime. But they still do exist, operating in signs and wonders today, and they will point you back to the truth of the scripture.

To define your divinity in terms of words that are little understood or even less agreed upon is without any practical value.

God is truth, and God is love, even though our world cannot agree on what either of those mean at times, God is not in dispute about what they mean.
His Holy Spirit is what will reveal to you what truth is and what true love looks like.

To that end, the scriptures will guide you in what God's sacrificial love and uncompromising adherance to truth looks like.
Ultimately it is the Holy Spirit that is our teacher, but mature mentors and scripture help guide us along the way and speed up our development.
It also serves as a truth and character check, allowing us to check what we think we have gotten against what God has already revealed to others through His Holy Spirit. Because God does not change, His Truth never changes. He won't tell you something that will be in conflict with what is revealed through His Son in the new testament.

your own scripture tells you that we are "made in God's image" and the Alchemists say "as below, so above". This is a very strong clue that God is more (and prolly less) than love, truth, and right. Much more complex. much more concrete.

I don't follow what you are trying to say here.

We are made in the image of God, but our image has been corrupted. We are meant to be a reflection of God's image to the world around us, but few of us attain that completely.
Jesus is the what it looks like when someone walks in the fullness of who God created them to be, in perfect and unbroken communication with God at all times, never coming into agreement with the world or demons, never allowing his own ego to take over.
He says he only did what He saw the Father doing, that He only said what He heard the Father saying.
He modeled for us what our relationship with God is suppose to be like. Complete surrender to His will, because only then can we fully manifest God's character of Love, Truth, Righteousness.

i submit to you that all creatures are of God whether they know it, want it, or believe it, and that the only difference is that some acknowledge (or a struck by a bolt from God, which still happens by the way) and *choose* to travel that path, while others shy from fear or discomfort and hunger. Those that shy become ill, both in body and in mind.

We are all God's creatures.
All are called to walk according to God's will.
Not everyone chooses to do it; and fear, or a hunger for their own desires, seem to be the biggest reasons why.
Those who don't choose to walk with God will likely suffer ill in a variety of ways, and it is sure they will die.

So, generally, your statement there would be in agreement with scripture, minus the part about that being "the only difference".
There are other consequences associated with being in rebellion to God and other benefits to being submitted to Him.
One way leads to destruction, the other leads to life.

edit on 28-12-2012 by Rise27 because: (no reason given)

just look at all those words.. got u fired up, yes?

only one more response, will i make:

"We are made in the image of God, but our image has been corrupted."
this is a hateful idea. corrupted!
how typically old school christian.

God and man are made in the same 'image'. this means that we are made by the same rules, not that man is a corrupted image of God.

i really don't know why i bother.....


"Only He, His word given to you,..." by other humans. who are human.

"It's not something you are likely to come to a conclusion on your own, relying on your own intellect and feelings."
no, i must rely on the recounting of one human by another's word and then translated and edited for 2000 years instead?

no thanks.

i prefer to take in ALL the words the world has to offer and balance that against my own observation and experience, and above all trust my deepest feelings.

and the thing that .... itches the most, is that you are so close.... so close.

yet so far away.

it makes me sad.

Originally posted by galactix
then there is nothing left but your word and the word of past humans to guide me? i cannot trust my own feelings?

You cannot trust your own feelings or thoughts. You, like everyone, are in a limited body with limited senses, draped in darkness from the world around you from birth, damaged by sin, in a world filled with deception, influenced by the pressures of your own desires and ego, influenced by demonic spirits, and probably disconnected from direct communion with God via the Holy Spirit.

Everything you rely on to discern what is true is compromised by the world you live in, even your own body is compromised and a battleground of competing ideas and feelings.

What hope do you have?
The fact that you can trust God's word given directly to you by His Holy Spirit - Assuming you invite Him in to your life and cultivate that ability to discern his leading. He is the light that can dispel all the darkness and deception, giving you clarity.

If you'd like to have that same relationship with God through the Holy Spirit, your best bet is to learn from those who have done it. The writers of the new testament, or modern Spirit led christians who operate in the power of the Spirit.

"Someone who is led by the Holy Spirit, living by the Holy Spirit, will manifest the fruit of the Holy Spirit in their life."
you do not describe said fruit and the above statement says nothing.

I quoted you Matthew 7, Galatians 5, John 15, and Romans 8, which should be sufficient to answer that question for you.
If they aren't, let me know why, and I'll gladly expound on them for you.

Originally posted by galactix
"We are made in the image of God, but our image has been corrupted."
this is a hateful idea. corrupted!
how typically old school christian.

God and man are made in the same 'image'. this means that we are made by the same rules, not that man is a corrupted image of God.

i really don't know why i bother.....

Jesus said God is perfect in Matthew 5. Jesus exhorted us that we should be perfect, just as God is perfect.

Is man perfect? No.
The bible says that all man has fallen short of the glory of the God.
Look around you, you don't have to look far to see that is true.

So if I call man imperfect, failing to live up to the image of a perfect God, why does this offend you?

no, i must rely on the recounting of one human by another's word and then translated and edited for 2000 years instead?

As I already said, you can try to ask God directly to reveal the truth of Jesus to you. If you seek with all your heart, sincerely, He promises that you will find Him.

And if you'd like help doing that, or would like to see the results of it, you can find someone who has done it and learn from them. Individuals who manifest the fruit of the Spirit and operate in the power of the Spirit.
(You're in northern California, so try going to Bethel Church in Redding and I'm sure you won't be disappointed).

The scriptures are not the only way you have of coming to know Christ, but they all accurately point you towards the Truth.

i prefer to take in ALL the words the world has to offer and balance that against my own observation and experience, and above all trust my deepest feelings.

I've been there, done that, and found the truth is in surrender to God rather than continuing to idolize my own ability to analyze things and come to a conclusion.

Proverbs 3
Trust in the Lord with all your heart,
and do not lean on your own understanding.
6 In all your ways acknowledge him,
and he will make straight your paths.
7 Be not wise in your own eyes;
fear the Lord, and turn away from evil.
8 It will be healing to your flesh
and refreshment to your bones.

Deuteronomy 12
8 “You shall not do according to all that we are doing here today, everyone doing whatever is right in his own eyes,

Proverbs 14
There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death.



The world we live in today is the result of most people doing what is right in their own eyes, not what God tells them is right.
In it's most pure form of rebellion from God's ways it results in anarchy, total depravity, and destruction of a society.
They are destroyed due to their ignorance.

Wisdom is something God offers freely to anyone who will ask Him what is right to do.
Some people are ignorant of the fact that they can ask Him.
Some people just don't want to ask Him, not trusting Him, so they trust in themselves.
Some are afraid of the answer they might get, and what it might require of them.
Some simply don't care what He has to say, having already decided they will do what they want regardless.

People in these situations often turn to idolizing something that justifies their unlawful rebellious way of life, not realizing the damage they are doing by living contrary to God's ways.

reply to post by Rise27

Jesus said God is perfect in Matthew 5. Jesus exhorted us that we should be perfect, just as God is perfect.

What is "perfect"? Is perfection to be without flaw? What is the point of living a flawless existence? There is no challenge, no triumph, no joy and no pain. To be perfect is to be without change, and to be without change is to be without anything we have come to love and know.

On the other hand, if perfection is perpetual motion, then we're speaking of a circle. Only a circle, a constant loop, provides perfect momentum, perfect motion. And in such a case, you cannot go in one direction without eventually going in another. The vector changes with every moment. Constant change. Is this perfection?

Is this the perfection you speak of? Because I fear that the perfection you are alluding to is nothing but a curse, a curse of meaninglessness in an eternal existence. There is nothing worse than living forever in a world that means nothing to you because it gives you nothing, because you cannot change.

So if I call man imperfect, failing to live up to the image of a perfect God, why does this offend you?

I am not offended by this. I am disappointed. Imperfection gives the opportunity for improvement, for creation. And with as many imperfections as we have, an eternity would provide us with endless chances to create and recreate, the experience the joys of giving to others and ourselves and learn from the experience so that the next experience will be even greater. The opportunity to learn. That is what imperfection gives us.

And that is what I call perfection. Endless opportunity for creation.

I've been there, done that, and found the truth is in surrender to God rather than continuing to idolize my own ability to analyze things and come to a conclusion.

So rather than question "God", you lose faith in your ability to make a rational decision? Then how can you know your decision to surrender was rational?

The world we live in today is the result of most people doing what is right in their own eyes, not what God tells them is right.

And just as many acts of cruelty have been committed by men who listened to this "God" instead of their own hearts.

Wisdom is something God offers freely to anyone who will ask Him what is right to do.
Some people are ignorant of the fact that they can ask Him.
Some people just don't want to ask Him, not trusting Him, so they trust in themselves.
Some are afraid of the answer they might get, and what it might require of them.
Some simply don't care what He has to say, having already decided they will do what they want regardless.

I will answer your statements in the order they appear.

Your "God" gives orders, not wisdom.
Some people have decided that they would rather rely on themselves. Is independence a bad thing?
Do you see a reason to trust him? How many people have you seen, saved by a man in a white beard descending from the sky to touch them and restore them to their full health?
Afraid of the answer? I think you should be looking to yourself with that sentiment. I am not afraid of any answer. It is the Christians who get angry when I start asking questions.
It's not that I don't care. It's that I reflect his concern for this world. If he has decided to leave this world to its fate until a prescribed moment in time, then I will leave him to his ego until a prescribed moment in time.

People in these situations often turn to idolizing something that justifies their unlawful rebellious way of life, not realizing the damage they are doing by living contrary to God's ways.

I idolize nothing. I see no need to worship a god. No parent would ever desire to be worshipped, and if any do, then they don't deserve it. Most often, those deserving of worship are the ones who don't want it.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Lazarus Short

 

Well hell would be a latinized term, the Greek term used was Hades.

No, it's much closer to the pagan Scandinavian "Hel."

Did you know that "hell" is also a verb? It means "to bury" - so there's the grave reference.

Originally posted by Murgatroid
reply to post by Lazarus Short

 

Originally posted by Lazarus Short
Here's Matthew 25:46 from Ferrar Fenton's The Holy Bible in Modern English: "...And these He will dismiss into a long correction, but the well-doers to an enduring life." There is a HUGE difference between "long correction" and "eternal torment."

There is very obvious reason for this HUGE difference...

Rupert Murdock owns all the Bible copyrights today.

END of story...

The NKJV removes the word "heaven" 50 times!
The NIV removes the word "hell" ALL 31 times it appears in the OT!
The NKJV removes the word "Lord" 66 times!
The NKJV removes the word God 51 times!

Jesus spoke more on Hell than on ANY other subject.

Rupert Murdock's LIES will NOT matter when you meet God.

So you think that bad modern versions validate the KJV? I think "Jesus spoke more on Hell than on ANY other subject." is a lie. He spoke more on this subject: "The Kingdom of Heaven is like..."

What happened to the millions of people that were born, lived, and died BEFORE jesus lived and preached? What happened to them? What happens to the indigenous tribal people who have never heard of, let alone read a bible? Do they go to hell just because no one has ever told them about jesus? What about a child that dies and wasn't baptized because their parents didn't believe, is the child damned as well through no fault of his own?

reply to post by EfficientP

Love to be real love, must be free.

Whoever robs another of the opportunity to accept the free invitation of Grace is in no better a position than those he professes to be trying to save, with the fear of hell, and is likely at the very least to get a taste of it for diminishing God's immeasurable love in the hearts and minds of others. Jesus spoke of this type of "proselyte". Sucks to be you if that's the case, because it's a double bind and you've already violated the spirit of the love of God.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
What is "perfect"? Is perfection to be without flaw?

In matthew 5, Jesus gives a long sermon outlining what perfection looks like, someone who not only does no wrong but desires no wrong in their heart, someone who acts in perfect love and truth towards others just the way God does.

What is the point of living a flawless existence? There is no challenge, no triumph, no joy and no pain. To be perfect is to be without change, and to be without change is to be without anything we have come to love and know.

Why would you want to live in a world where people hurt each other by not acting in love?

A world of perfect love is not a world devoid of new experiences and interesting happenings.

Is this the perfection you speak of? Because I fear that the perfection you are alluding to is nothing but a curse, a curse of meaninglessness in an eternal existence. There is nothing worse than living forever in a world that means nothing to you because it gives you nothing, because you cannot change.

Consider that those who have been to heaven and return unanimously say they never wanted to return to this world, but did so for the sake of others.
Paul writes in his letters that it would be better for him if he were to return to Christ, but that would choose to remain on the earth longer out of love for the lost.

Actually, those who have been there say heaven is a far more interesting and stimulating place than our existance on earth.

I would use an analogy of someone who lives in a mud hut as a slave to a cruel overlord, barely subsisting, but then they are invited to be an honored son and resident of a royal palace, ruled by a righteous loving king, in a land of plenty and splendor.
Do you think that person will find their former squalid existance more fulfilling than the new world of possibilities that have opened up in this new land of palace and paradise?

So if I call man imperfect, failing to live up to the image of a perfect God, why does this offend you?

I am not offended by this. I am disappointed. Imperfection gives the opportunity for improvement, for creation. And with as many imperfections as we have, an eternity would provide us with endless chances to create and recreate, the experience the joys of giving to others and ourselves and learn from the experience so that the next experience will be even greater. The opportunity to learn. That is what imperfection gives us.

What you're talking about is the process of maturity, which some accounts would suggest does continue to take place in Heaven.

But that is not the same as the kind of imperfection I am talking about, which is a damaged and broken state caused by our forefather's rebellion to God and service of satan.
That is a state of corruption, a distortion away from the original design, a state of brokenness that should be fixed.

And that is what I call perfection. Endless opportunity for creation.

Our ability and desire to create is given from God.
The kind of imperfection I'm talking about, corruption and fallen nature, is actually a hinderance to our ability to step into the full creative potential that God intended for us to walk out.

I've been there, done that, and found the truth is in surrender to God rather than continuing to idolize my own ability to analyze things and come to a conclusion.

So rather than question "God", you lose faith in your ability to make a rational decision? Then how can you know your decision to surrender was rational?

No one should ever put faith in their own ability to determine truth.
All truth comes by revelation of the Holy Spirit, whether someone realizes it or not.

Your soul is a battlefield where you have two competing forces trying to influence your thought process and feelings.
Thoughts enter your mind that do not originate with yourself, and if you agree with them and take them to heart they will lead to action on your part.

Jesus warns that you cannot serve two masters, you will either end up serving one or the other. You either agree with the rebellious spirits bent on your destruction, or God who loves you and wants only the best for you.

The world we live in today is the result of most people doing what is right in their own eyes, not what God tells them is right.

And just as many acts of cruelty have been committed by men who listened to this "God" instead of their own hearts.

None - If they truly heard from God, and weren't creating something in their own soul or listening to the deceptions of demons.

Everything God does, and tells people to do, is always with their best interest and love in mind.

Your "God" gives orders, not wisdom.

A Father's wisdom is imparted to his children by telling them what to do, what not to do, and why.

Some people have decided that they would rather rely on themselves. Is independence a bad thing?

There is a way that seems right to a man, but it leads to death.

How well will it go for you if you try to be independant of God, who is the power source of your life, the source of any love you ever feel, and the source of your natural gifts such as understanding and creativity?
Everything you are will be enhanced and matured the closer you are to Him, but everything you are will entropy if you close yourself off to Him.

It's not possible to live a life independent of God. Trying to only leads to suffering, decay, corruption, and death. That's what we're learning as a result of this earthly rebellion.

Do you see a reason to trust him? How many people have you seen, saved by a man in a white beard descending from the sky to touch them and restore them to their full health?

Absolutely.
I have seem Him touch people by His Holy Spirit and restore them in miraculous ways. Whether it be a physical, mental, relational, or emotional healing.

My trust in Him grows with time as I see His hand on my life and my circumstances, I realize He is for me and not against me, that He has only the best in mind for me, and that His ways and thoughts for me are better than any I could have come up with for myself.
It's a relationship, and trust grows with a relationship.

It's not that I don't care. It's that I reflect his concern for this world. If he has decided to leave this world to its fate until a prescribed moment in time, then I will leave him to his ego until a prescribed moment in time.

He never left the World. He's already made a way for restoration if we follow Him.

Some day He will return physically to rule over earth in the physical; And then everyone will be able to compare what it's like to live in a world with a completely righteous and loving King, who embodies complete wisdom and truth, lacking in no justice and fairness, in a world free of demonic spirits harassing people. So there should be no doubt left in the minds of humanity by that time that God's ways are better, that He has our best intent at heart, that there's no value or reward in trying to live in rebellion to God in order to serve our own rebellious designs or the designs of rebellious demons.

I idolize nothing. I see no need to worship a god

Because you've made yourself an idol.
You think you can decide what's right or wrong, that you set the rules, and that you're accountable only to yourself.
You depend on yourself instead of God - That's making an idol of yourself and your own abilities.

No parent would ever desire to be worshipped, and if any do, then they don't deserve it. Most often, those deserving of worship are the ones who don't want it.

Worship is simply the act of loving something, delighting in it's pressence.

Loving your parents and delighting to be with them is a natural and automatic response that comes from a child who realizes they are loved and cared for so completely by their parent.

John the apostle said that we love God because He first loved us.
That's very true if you think about it. None of us can drum up love for God on our own, our love for Him is just a response to realizing His love for us.

And God does deserve that adoration, more than anything or anyone else in the world, because nothing else is capable of loving you as completely as He does.

Originally posted by Lazarus Short

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Lazarus Short

 

Well hell would be a latinized term, the Greek term used was Hades.

No, it's much closer to the pagan Scandinavian "Hel."

Did you know that "hell" is also a verb? It means "to bury" - so there's the grave reference.

Why would Christ lie when telling of the rich man tormented in the flames? Was he just not as knowledgeable as you are?

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by Lazarus Short

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Lazarus Short

 

Well hell would be a latinized term, the Greek term used was Hades.

No, it's much closer to the pagan Scandinavian "Hel."

Did you know that "hell" is also a verb? It means "to bury" - so there's the grave reference.

Why would Christ lie when telling of the rich man tormented in the flames? Was he just not as knowledgeable as you are?

There are other ways of interpreting the parable than the usual "rich man in Hell" routine. Here's mine:

Lazarus is the poor, scattered tribes of Israel.

The rich man is the nation of Judah - we know that because the rich man, like Judah, had five brothers.

The fire is the troubles soon to be faced by the Jews, starting about 70 AD.

There are other ways to interpret the parable/fable, and anyway, basing doctrine on a parable/fable is bad theology.

reply to post by Rise27

In matthew 5, Jesus gives a long sermon outlining what perfection looks like, someone who not only does no wrong but desires no wrong in their heart, someone who acts in perfect love and truth towards others just the way God does.

Perfection is found in imperfection. That way, as you change with experience, so does your perspective and understanding. Imperfection is the only way to realize how futile perfection is. Perfect things tend to become judgmental and brutal, destroying everything they perceive as imperfect. Only when we are imperfect can we come to terms with an imperfect a world, a world that is always changing to compensate for the random chaos that occurs within its boundaries.

That is true divinity. The ability to go through hell and come out on top.

Why would you want to live in a world where people hurt each other by not acting in love?

A world of perfect love is not a world devoid of new experiences and interesting happenings.

I never said I wanted to. But first, you must learn what love is. The thing is, no one is focusing on learning love. They are focusing on the process of give and take, and they are missing the moon for the finger that is pointing to it.

A world of perfect love is a world that doesn't understand chaos. Chaos brings pain, and those who only know love will be destroyed because love is fragile and can easily be wounded if not sheltered constantly. Chaos is necessary for coming to terms with the unknown, as the unknown will always exist. And love is necessary for enduring chaos, so that the unknown doesn't overcome us.

Consider that those who have been to heaven and return unanimously say they never wanted to return to this world, but did so for the sake of others.
Paul writes in his letters that it would be better for him if he were to return to Christ, but that would choose to remain on the earth longer out of love for the lost.

Oh yes. We are a bunch of cats in a mice farm. We forget the cream tat sits high above because all the mice keep us distracted. We need people to point out the way, to show us what needs to be done to reach that cream. Unfortunately, others come along and say, "Look at this mouse trap I built!"

And then we fall back to catching mice.

Actually, those who have been there say heaven is a far more interesting and stimulating place than our existance on earth.

I wouldn't doubt that a higher plane of existence should prove more enthralling than this mundane world.

What you're talking about is the process of maturity, which some accounts would suggest does continue to take place in Heaven.

But that is not the same as the kind of imperfection I am talking about, which is a damaged and broken state caused by our forefather's rebellion to God and service of satan.
That is a state of corruption, a distortion away from the original design, a state of brokenness that should be fixed.

So what was the original design? What was the original purpose for this species?

Our ability and desire to create is given from God.
The kind of imperfection I'm talking about, corruption and fallen nature, is actually a hinderance to our ability to step into the full creative potential that God intended for us to walk out.

What creative potential? We are forever degrading ourselves, convincing ourselves that we cannot be just as great as Jesus or as "God". That's not creative potential, that is a barrier between us and the power within us.

No one should ever put faith in their own ability to determine truth.
All truth comes by revelation of the Holy Spirit, whether someone realizes it or not.

My personal epiphanies have contradicted a large amount of what your "Holy Spirit" reveals. And I generally do a much better job of defending my personal revelations.

Jesus warns that you cannot serve two masters, you will either end up serving one or the other. You either agree with the rebellious spirits bent on your destruction, or God who loves you and wants only the best for you.

Precisely. Why do we need a master? Why must we serve? Why can we not rise above a destiny of servitude? Are we not capable of more, of greater and better deeds? A purpose we can be proud of?

None - If they truly heard from God, and weren't creating something in their own soul or listening to the deceptions of demons.

Everything God does, and tells people to do, is always with their best interest and love in mind.

Love does not always lead to acts of what you would call "good". Just as negativity will often wipe itself out, as nature intends.

A Father's wisdom is imparted to his children by telling them what to do, what not to do, and why.

Then why do I get the feeling that I could sit down with him over a good strong coffee, chat with him for a few hours, and leave him asking himself, "What if I was wrong?"

Hell, I could be Neo. We all could be. We all have the power to stand up for our spiritual rights. It amuses me that we fight the President for our rights on Earth, but this "God" fellow can do whatever he wants and we just lay down and take it. That is the ultimate act of hypocrisy.

reply to post by Lazarus Short


It's not a parable. In a parable no names are used.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by Lazarus Short

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Lazarus Short

 

Well hell would be a latinized term, the Greek term used was Hades.

No, it's much closer to the pagan Scandinavian "Hel."

Did you know that "hell" is also a verb? It means "to bury" - so there's the grave reference.

Why would Christ lie when telling of the rich man tormented in the flames? Was he just not as knowledgeable as you are?

There is an easy solution to this rich man & lazarus issue...

Consider the idea that Jesus didn't actually use this story... its a fabrication of Luke... I would even say a fabrication influenced by who Luke followed... (paul)

This story only appears in one gospel... and its the only gospel that didn't come from a first hand witness...

In reality this story is nothing more then an embellishment of Mark 9: 43-47....

Basically.... Jesus didn't say that

reply to post by Akragon


Have you read Luke? In the first chapter he states that his information came from interviewing first-hand witnesses. So that would mean the information came from them.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


lol of course I have... too many times

Again... this story only appears in one book out of three...

the two books that actually came from "first hand witnesses" don't mention anything about this story... Neither does johns gospel...

Lukes book presents plenty of new ideas that were not mentioned previously... and since its quite clear that luke got a lot of his information from the same source as the other two... Likely what is considered the Q document...

I think its an obvious indication that this story is a fabrication...

Jesus was alive when this story apparently took place... so the only way he could have known that such things occurred is if one subscribes to the "Jesus was God" theory... which I don't.

And again its not mentioned in any other gospel... not even hinted at...

I find it quite obvious that this story is nothing more then an embellishment of a previous idea that was written down... pushing the fear based agenda that the original religion practiced