I'm an Englishman without a gun and here is my view...

As an Englishman, somewhat looking in as objectively as possible, I think the topic of gun control really is so complex, I'm unsure how anyone can say yes or no without saying yes but... or no but...

You see, guns are not the issue here, primarily the issue is with attitudes to violence. We and I include the West in general rather than just pointing out America, seem so at ease with violence, we are so exposed to it, be it on TV, newspapers, music, internet, video games etc that we don't even flinch. At the same time, life has become not life, but just someone or something that is there. We don't see life as life, there are people out there who would set out in the morning to destroy life and not think twice about it and the issue is, we would read it and not flinch twice about it. We will seem shocked, but for seconds, before moving on to the sports section or celeb gossip.

Now on top of this, we exist in a society that celebrates and encourages a consumer, materialist lifestyle. A society that celebrates talentless pop "artists", spoilt overpaid sports stars and reality TV shows that represent all of the above. Why aren’t we encouraging our youth and ourselves to pursue discovery, knowledge and creation? Why aren't we celebrating those Scientists, doctors, engineers and those who strive for a better world for us all? Why don't we celebrate the every day heroes, hospital workers, firemen, police officers, volunteers, working mothers and fathers? When did progression and decency become so unpopular? How did we allow ourselves to be consumed by products that we don't even need in a lifestyle that does nothing but enslaves?

Now add to this, cut backs in public services, cut backs in policing, cut backs in health services, cut backs in general every day jobs. Cut backs in working hours (at least paid), cut backs in pay rises, oh but wait, is cost of living cutting back? No, its through the roof, so that companies can profit and share holders can mount up their millions. So let me get this straight, the people at the top sold this lifestyle to the West for 40 odd years and now its like, well you live within your means, just like that? Some of us will adapt, most will get angry, most will still want the lifestyle!

So there are a lot more angry people out there, people still wanting to live the dream and they will, no matter what it takes, but the dream is not just in rapid decline, just existing with a roof over head and food on the plate is slowly in decline. So the government say, lets take away the guns? Are they going to put police officers at every door step? Are the criminals going to hand in their assault rifles and automatics? So you've sold the people a dream, you're now taking that dream and taking away the protection that the public has to defend themselves from people who will want to use violence in order to live that dream, with no extra protection and yet the population is supposed to be okay with this?

In China, the public cant just buy guns, but kids are being attacked left, right and centre from knife wielding maniacs. In Switzerland, guns are everywhere, yet no instances of people going nuts and shooting up the place. In Britain, they banned guns, then everyone had a knife, they increased sentences with knifes, then gangs started getting dogs and training them to attack, now they're clamping down on that, gangs will move on to something else. There are guns all over Britain, violent crime getting more violent, foreign gangs who kill and bury their victims where their victims fall, what's banning guns done for crime? Nothing, its just made police “services” like the Met change how they manipulate the crime stats. All is rosy, move along.

It's attitudes that need to change, life needs to be valued, we need to go back to what makes us Human. It's the people that need to unite and only then, in the face of unbreakable unity, will a government act on behalf of its people. The issue of gun control is so deep, it uncovers the very failings of society, pretty much to its very root. It exposes the flaws in government policies of not just this government in not just America, but every government across the planet. Do as we say, not as we kill. It can’t go on, it can for them, it can’t for us.

To me gun control is not yes and no, its never yes and no, they want you to believe its yes and no because its no different from friend and foe, that's how TPTB want it, that's how they've always wanted it, its clean cut, you're with us or against us. It's once again dividing a nation in order to mask over the issues and problems that they themselves have helped to create. I hope that everyone can look at gun control as an opportunity to look at oneself, if we can all look at ourselves and open our minds to what life is and what it means to live, that in itself could unify a road, a block, a town, a city, a nation. We don’t just owe it to those who have died needlessly at the hands of gunmen, but we owe it to those who will die needlessly at the hands of gunmen.

Great post, Many people in the anti-gun brigade are using Britain as an example of how gun control works,but gun control hasnt worked in Britain in fact its arguable that it has turned Britain into one of the most dangerous countrys in Europe.

www.dailymail.co.uk...

Originally posted by auraelium
Great post, Many people in the anti-gun brigade are using Britain as an example of how gun control works,but gun control hasnt worked in Britain in fact its arguable that it has turned Britain into one of the most dangerous countrys in Europe.

www.dailymail.co.uk...

edit on 27-12-2012 by auraelium because: (no reason given)

The OP is good, but I am afraid you are entirely wrong about Britain being ’arguably the most violent country in Europe’ – utter tosh and using the Daily ’Fail’ as a source for post inspiration is akin to using Fox News. Entirely unreliable and full of sensationalism journalism.

you forgot the awesome job of killing innocent people that the governments of the world love doing. i suppose when all the governments disarm, so will the people, until then save the story's. besides if cameron stays in office much longer, you Brit's will be needing some guns yourselves.

oh and didn't i forget, you see our government has declared we are at war with terrorists, so we must have guns, since we're at war and all.

reply to post by LarryLove


Actually I'm unsure if Britain itself is the most violent country in Europe, taking in to account many Eastern European countries where violence and murders can go unreported, but Britain is far more violent than the general public realise. Honestly, in the Greater London area, you would be shocked just how violent it is and it is increasing. From talking to people in Nottingham, Birmingham and Manchester, violence is increasing rapidly. Don't believe the stats, believe me, without giving too much away on here, the stats are manipulated beyond belief and it will only get worse.

The level of cut backs that the Met police is undertaking has many officers, both at ground and senior level, questioning how on Earth it can provide an effective police service and the shocking truth is, it can't. So this rise in violence will only increase, will gun control help in Britain? Well, from what I've seen, there is no gun control in Britain if you're on the wrong side of the law.

reply to post by LittleBlackEagle


I am totally for guns for defence, really I am. However, only for home defence. If someone obtains entry in to your property with ill intention, you should have every right to use all and every means necessary to neurtralise the intruder, including the discharge of firearms. I'm not for guns being carried by the general public in Britain, honestly, you Americans, even the youth seem far more respectful than the youth and certain section of adults here in Britain. You might have trailer trash and ghettos with drive by shootings and what not, but here, if we had guns in general circulation, half the population would be dead already, most probably at thier own hands. So guns being legal in that sense, here in Britain, no way, not until, again, attitudes change, but definately for home defence.

reply to post by SecretFace


No instances of people going nuts with firearms in Switzerland eh? What about the Zug massacre in 2001? Fourteen innocent people shot dead by a lunatic with an assault rifle.

en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by auraelium
Great post, Many people in the anti-gun brigade are using Britain as an example of how gun control works,but gun control hasnt worked in Britain in fact its arguable that it has turned Britain into one of the most dangerous countrys in Europe.

www.dailymail.co.uk...

edit on 27-12-2012 by auraelium because: (no reason given)

Please don't cite the Daily Fascist. That paper makes me feel ill. It loves to frighten its readers with poorly-sourced rubbish.

Originally posted by SecretFace
reply to post by LittleBlackEagle

 

I am totally for guns for defence, really I am. However, only for home defence. If someone obtains entry in to your property with ill intention, you should have every right to use all and every means necessary to neurtralise the intruder, including the discharge of firearms. I'm not for guns being carried by the general public in Britain, honestly, you Americans, even the youth seem far more respectful than the youth and certain section of adults here in Britain. You might have trailer trash and ghettos with drive by shootings and what not, but here, if we had guns in general circulation, half the population would be dead already, most probably at thier own hands. So guns being legal in that sense, here in Britain, no way, not until, again, attitudes change, but definately for home defence.

it boils down to our current society and how it's deteriorating quickly. most of what we discuss here is symptoms of a much larger problem, the source problem if you will and we all know what that is, greed.

there is nothing that can be done until the source problem is eliminated, you know stopping the blood flow only goes so far, when you're cut from head to toe, like our society has become.

i'm licensed to carry in my state but i rarely do, mostly just when my wife and i go hiking, biking or fishing, otherwise i don't feel unsafe. mind you i don't spend any evening in the cities either.

we just had a case over the summer of a 65 year old man whom was on a biking trail and three teenagers attempted to assault him. they had weapons so he chose to flee and give them his bike. they pursued him and when he was left with no choice he shot and killed one, injured another and the third got away.

bad things happen to good people everyday, we just have to quit punishing each other for doing the best we can, ya know. we the people of this world are for the first time ever, united in being the 99% if you will. not about being in any movement, but just where we stand as human beings.

we have been systematically corralled into that 99%, controlled and constantly berated by the elite who control this world over us. doesn't matter what nationality you are, you're classed with the rest of us serf's. debt is the tender that engulfs us all.

Originally posted by SecretFace
reply to post by LittleBlackEagle

 

I am totally for guns for defence, really I am. However, only for home defence. If someone obtains entry in to your property with ill intention, you should have every right to use all and every means necessary to neurtralise the intruder, including the discharge of firearms. I'm not for guns being carried by the general public in Britain, honestly, you Americans, even the youth seem far more respectful than the youth and certain section of adults here in Britain. You might have trailer trash and ghettos with drive by shootings and what not, but here, if we had guns in general circulation, half the population would be dead already, most probably at thier own hands. So guns being legal in that sense, here in Britain, no way, not until, again, attitudes change, but definately for home defence.

What if that intruder consists of a fully armed government swat team trying to take you and your family to a nice new camp ? Will you meet them at the door? Or would you rather your neighbors and friends make a stand at the town lines?

Originally posted by SecretFace

To me gun control is not yes and no, its never yes and no, they want you to believe its yes and no because its no different from friend and foe, that's how TPTB want it, that's how they've always wanted it, its clean cut, you're with us or against us.

It's once again dividing a nation in order to mask over the issues and problems that they themselves have helped to create. I hope that everyone can look at gun control as an opportunity to look at oneself, if we can all look at ourselves and open our minds to what life is and what it means to live, that in itself could unify a road, a block, a town, a city, a nation.

We don’t just owe it to those who have died needlessly at the hands of gunmen, but we owe it to those who will die needlessly at the hands of gunmen

I am glad that you had decided to look into the larger picture on the causes of violence.

However, I am mystified by your last line in the summation of your post. Was it an oversight, an un-intentional error, or perhaps something more sinister - a subtle attempt at the sub-consciousness of the reader, after agreeing to the many points of your post, to agree with you for gun control and that gunmen are the only cause of violence, as specifically mentioned on your last line?

If so, then there are NO other senseless violence upon mankind by other form of tools?

If we blame guns for the cause of violence and ban them, then shall we equally ban ALL daily necessities tool used in life that cause violence as well?

Shall we all mankind today climb back into our mother's womb and refuse to be born due to the fear of violence today, or shall we instead confront realities and research into the ROOT causes of violence honestly, then share,discuss and find GENUINE solutions to resolve them so that future innocent generations can be spared?

reply to post by SecretFace


I agree that people with mental illnesses should not be allowed near guns.

However, there are guns in England, loads of them. Where I live there is always shooting, it drives me mad. In fact there was shooting at midnight a few months ago - so I rang the police and said

' there is shooting in the woods outside my garden' they said ' dont worry love it is probably only a group of people ' lamping'.

I said ' well how do you know that, how do you know it isnt a mad man with a gun'

They said' let me check the list, usually those who ' lamp' ' pest control' at night will leave their names with us... oh no there is no one on the list who is meant to be shooting at xxxx '
me: ok so I'll just ignore them then.

Police: yes - just ring back if you get worried love.

Anyway - it was just people ' lamping' [ murdering innocent critters at night - for no apparent reason by shining a torch in their luminescent eyes] My point being is there are loads of people who have guns where I live.

In fact I think I should be allowed to own a gun - why should the only people taht have guns be the police and the criminals.

However, anyone who is mentally unstable should not be allowed a gun and anyone who owns firearms should store them appropriately, so a child etc cannot reach them and they should take lessons in shooting.

The Metroplitan police are the most dangerous people walking around with guns as far as I can tell:
Shooting / executing an innocent man on the tube, shooting dead a nutty solicitor who was shooting a shot gun out of his window, killing a man carrying a table leg etc etc. The gun squad police in England ar every very trigger happy.

In fact the WELSH police are nearly as bad, they shoot dead dairy herds, just because they have walked out of their field.

It is a myth that England is gun free - I think we should be allowed firearms as long as we are trained and mentally stable etc.

www.dailymail.co.uk...
en.wikipedia.org...
www.dailymail.co.uk...
en.wikipedia.org...

Anti gunners should move to Chicago's west side. Guns are outlawed there so it's safe. Pay no attention to the 500th gun death last night it must have been someone from out of town that did it

Originally posted by cripmeister
reply to post by SecretFace

 

No instances of people going nuts with firearms in Switzerland eh? What about the Zug massacre in 2001? Fourteen innocent people shot dead by a lunatic with an assault rifle.

en.wikipedia.org...

and that did not lead to gun control or bans from what I read. he took out 14 people with an actual assault rifle?? and what?? our home grown nuts took out how many?? 20+?? with guns that are not assault rifles.

So banning certain kinds of guns does not guarantee a low body count. A country dealt with this problem without gun bans/control.

Man those are good arguments to fight the gun control nutts with.

This is a really fantastic post, and you said so eloquently what I have thought about before. It isn't the guns that are the problem. You connected all the materialism with it, too.

Well done -

Disagree with the OP when he says it's not a black and white, yes-or-no issue. I think it is. Britain has tighter gun controls than the US, but they're not tight enough because we still have mass shooting incidents - too many.
Firearms kill at a distance - that's the problem. A homicidal maniac can cause far more death and mayhem with a gun than with a knife.
That's the issue, full stop, end of.
Keep it simple.

reply to post by CJCrawley


I am not so sure it is so clear cut

I would like a gun in my house. I find it very unnerving having people ' allegedly' 'lamping ' in the woods and I am terrified in my house as they shoot within 100 metres of me.

How do I know they are not nutters - and they can get guns easy in a country where it is supposedly hard to get a gun. They may not be high powered assault rifles, but they still have bullets that can kill.

I think people in Britain should be allowed guns for protection and I always thought of myself as a pacifist.

I can also remind of the incident in Norway 2011 where some lunatic went crazy w machine guns on a youth summer camp. Shot and killed many youngsters. There has been a school shooting in Finland as well a few years ago. Those are not countries known for many handguns and yet it happened. As Op was saying this is a difficult question.

I for one think that we need to stop feeding our young w so much violence in videgames, movies etc. Really put an effort in teaching what is important in life. And it is certainly not to drive the most expensive car in a Armani shirt. Nor is it beeing the coolest dude and best fIghter on the block. But to accomplish a change of values we must try to end poverty and create equal opportunities for everyone, for real. This is a global challenge.

So with or without guns we have the problem. It just that I would rather run into someone with a baseball bat than a loaded gun.

Imho.

reply to post by HelenConway


If you live in a rural area (and by the sound of things, you do) you will always get some lampers in the woods. It's always been the case, as far back as you want to go. How many people have they shot and killed over the centuries? Answer: not many. Indeed, they often do it at night precisely because there's no one about, therefore less chance of harming a human being. I can understand your concern, but I think it's baseless.
Certainly if the Old Bill aren't concerned, you needn't be either. If there were any suspicion that you might actually be in danger, an armed police unit would be down there within minutes.
However, there is always the option of moving house, if you really can't relax. Personally, I would stay put - you're a damn sight safer where you are than you would be in inner city London or Manchester.

If the US built a bridge to the UK and told the residents come on over there would be 6 people left in the UK, same as Russia, China and most other countries.

Freedom kicks ass, so does absurd levels of firepower, boob implants that are too large and fast cars.

I bet your queen has a machine gun in the house or thirty...sorry I forgot you are all peasants basking in the warm glow of a superior being who deserves access to whatever she sees fit - but not you.