The National Debt - What You Don't Seem To Get

I know with the ever-looming fiscal cliff, gun control, rumors of war, and the ever progressing collapse of the dollar as Reserve Currency status; people seem to bring up the national debt, quite a bit. Whether it is talks about quantitative easing, printing more money, or deciding on a plan for the fiscal year of 2013; our Reserve Currency is on everybody's minds...

There are talks about the national debt being 16 trillion dollars and what we can do to 'ease' the collapse by stimulus spending, and etc. However, what most people don't seem to understand is what the debt comes from in the first place.

You see, the Federal Reserve, owns the print. The Federal Reserve, prints money, to which it can loan to anybody, namely our Government. When this loan occurs, with interest I might add, debt is the result. Open your wallet...Look at the 5's, or the 10's or the 100's... You know what that is? It is debt. Let's examine one of these 'legal tender' notes shall we?



Can you read the enclosed text?

This note is legal tender, for ALL DEBTS, public and private.

Now let's read that again...."ALL DEBTS"....Nowhere on this bill or note, does it say it can be used to accumulate wealth. It specifically says it is an instrument for the payment of debt. Therefore, what you brainwashed sheep have yet to realize is, as long as a single dollar exists in any of your pockets, or in circulation, we will be in debt.

reply to post by VeritasAequitas


I'm pretty sure we understand that. In fact, I don't know anyone over the age of 12 that doesn't know the Federal Reserve prints money.

Interesting. At this point in time that can be argued to be true. What about when America had no debt? Did it still represent debt? I am not argueing your point. Just trying to juggle it around in my mind to understand what your saying fully.

reply to post by VeritasAequitas

In other words, even if there was no national debt, we would still have a debt based monetary system because money (in our current system) is created through the selling of bonds, which means we have to pay back the principal plus interest. Problem is, the loan is only for the principal, the interest portion is never created into the money supply.

Which means that bankruptcies, busts and depressions are built right into the system, which is why Ron Paul has been trying to get rid of the Federal Reserve system for a very long time.

Having lots of money, I can pay my debt to anyone in exchange for their goods or services. Is the potential to have anything one wants, wealth? Or have I accumulated no wealth until I exchange the notes for something of REAL value, such as a ton of peanuts, and stash that.
The more cash I have, the more people are potentially indebted to me. That is power. Maybe by saving my money I acquire power, and by spending it I acquire wealth.
So when I have bought all that I want, really, I am wealthy. Wealth can be relative to wants as well. Even the poor may be wealthy if they do not desire much. I will have to go for the power next. Only the rich can be powerful. That is where the real money's at.

Originally posted by Ameilia
reply to post by VeritasAequitas

 

I'm pretty sure we understand that. In fact, I don't know anyone over the age of 12 that doesn't know the Federal Reserve prints money.

You should elaborate on that. Barely any one over the age of 12 realizes that the federal reserve is privately owned, and that if all debt was paid no money would be in circulation.

s&f

Yeah, but you're taking the word "debt" too literally.


When I grab a Snicker's bar, a debt is created which I pay off with that dollar in the picture. Any time you're charged for a product or service, that is a debt. Currency is what squares the deal

Stop using FRN.
Start printing US treasury notes
Or better yet - Start coining actual MONEY!!! It doesnt all have to be gold or silver there is copper, nickle, platinum etc etc.

reply to post by Hawking


That is not true. In a free-market economy where barter is allowed, I could trade you my horse and saddle, which have real value, for your cow and milk pail. That would be a square deal. However, that 'legal tender' is backed by absolutely nothing, not even gold. Therefore, giving you a piece of paper with $5 on it, does not square the deal for taking a meal. There was nothing of an equal or greater value traded on behalf of that meal.

Of course it would be for ALL DEBTS. If you weren't indebted to someone, why would you need the money in the first place?

Want a loaf of bread, fine. Grab it from the shelf, and you are now in debt. Once you pay with your money, you are out of debt. That could be considered a public debt. (or taxes)

A private debt would be paying your neighbor to mow your lawn.

Either way, a service is rendered (a debt) that can be resolved upon payment of another service. (usually cash)

reply to post by Daemonicon

Of course it would be for ALL DEBTS. If you weren't indebted to someone, why would you need the money in the first place?

I think you should look up Debtor and Creditor in regards to the UCC, and issues of debt. This might give you a little better idea of what debt really is.

As a person who has literally spent hundreds of hours just reading the Federal Budget ( especially the part referred to as the "black budget" ) I am of the opinion that the "National Debt" is significantly illusory. IE it is manufactured - or at least highly overstated - as a means of social engineering. A way to keep the people in line and in fear.

If you truly look at it, you begin to see a lot of robbing Peter to pay Paul type games. Entries where money is merely rearranged ( moved from place to place ) but shown as a deduction. It includes projections of things not even spent yet - or even nearly on the horizon.

It's a massive accounting, book cooking exercise. Literally on a Federal level.

How much would we actually owe if an honest army of accountants were to have access enough to figure it out? I honestly couldn't say. But I am 100% certain, with every cell in my body, that the number would be MUCH more manageable than we are led to believe.

~Heff

reply to post by Ameilia


Cool beans. But this isn't about the Federal Reserve printing money. It's about the fact that we would still be in debt at the mere existence of a single note in circulation. Ergo, we can never get out of debt unless we turn all of the Federal Reserve notes back to the Federal Reserve.

reply to post by Hefficide


I would agree with you again; however I think a lot of this goes back to the Government being bankrupt in the 30's, which is where the banks took over and demanded all the gold via FDR's little notice.

Originally posted by VeritasAequitas
reply to post by Ameilia

 

Cool beans. But this isn't about the Federal Reserve printing money. It's about the fact that we would still be in debt at the mere existence of a single note in circulation. Ergo, we can never get out of debt unless we turn all of the Federal Reserve notes back to the Federal Reserve.

Yeah, okay, but you've also editted that post a bit since I responded.

Guess I should've quoted you! My bad.

(tentatively raises paw) ... Err..

There is something of a disconnect from what I know the U.S. Federal Debt to be. It isn't that I disagree with the OP, because I don't. Not precisely. The Fed does set monetary policy by dictating amount printed vs amount destroyed back out of circulation, interest rates and more.

In many ways the Presidential appointments that Chair the Federal Reserve Board are far more powerful and definitely more lasting than the Treasury Secretary for any given period. After all, Bernanke is up to 2 President's he's now been appointed and Senate confirmed by. Longevity must be nice.

Anyway, this comes up so often I just saved the screen caps for use as needed. All the thumbs are from the US Federal Budget Proposal developed by the White House, through the General Accounting Office for FY 2013 and beyond. (I think it's quicker getting there than it is typing what it is. )



^^ This one shows the overall totals on U.S. Federal Debt. 2011 is a known and established number. 2012, partially projected and all the rest are complete projections which are based on these numbers being the actual conditions our nation sees in the coming years:



If the assumptions hold, the first set of projections is probably what happens for U.S. Debt. That's mind numbing. If the conditions are not as good as assumptions forming the basis of projections? Well.... It'll get bad.

The important part of the first chart and set of numbers though are the bottom ones. The whole line is a breakdown or support in one way or another, but the bottom two ....read in trillions ..... show the amount held by Governments and Official things (Like China holding around a Trillion and Japan something less). The remainder and VAST majority is debt issued in the form of T-bills, Treasury Notes, Bonds and the like. These are real pieces of paper that real people in this nation and across the world are holding in real accounts. It's not make-up money by any stretch for the effect it would have if it somehow weren't there suddenly.

Many retirement plans, pensions and more form that 14 or so trillion where we sit now. That, and in the oddest twist to this craziness, under Bernanke, the Fed has begun monetizing the U.S. Debt ...Which is confusing and even I don't quite get it but it's buying the debt by the very people issuing the currency.

The Weimar Republic is a historic example of what this insanity is, leads to and is like to endure in a Western nation ...albeit one historic. The link there provides a number of examples of what happens on the road we're on now. It's a bad ending, no matter how it goes now. It's a question of damage mitigation and I wish they'd at least start that much.

- I'd also note that by policy and much I agreed with ...much I don't, The U.S. has been using the accumulation of foreign debt by OTHER nations to basically buy them and dictate terms as needed, economically, for decades. The rest of the world isn't even going to joke about letting us just hit some reset button. I think some smaller nations may make the day we crash a national holiday or something... Us and the IMF

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Don't get me wrong Wrabbit; I'm not saying those things don't contribute as well. What I am saying is, most people don't get the fact that we can't get out of this debt, simply because of the bills in circulation. For all the debt to go back to zip, we would have to turn in every single note to the Federal Reserve, so that they couldn't say we owed them a single dime. Most people do not realize this; which is why this whole fiscal cliff, stimulus spendings, and all the other rather flowery things that sound nice on the outside, don't mean a damn thing. It's all a great big illusion.

The Founding Fathers were well aware of the dangers of Debt and Central Banking.

"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. Already they have raised up a monied aristocracy that has set the government at defiance. The issuing power (of money) should be taken away from the banks and restored to the people to whom it properly belongs." - Thomas Jefferson

"I place economy among the first and most important virtues, and public debt as the greatest of dangers to be feared. To preserve our independence, we must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt. If we run into such debts, we must be taxed in our meat and drink, in our necessities and in our comforts, in our labor and in our amusements. If we can prevent the government from wasting the labor of the people, under the pretense of caring for them, they will be happy." - Thomas Jefferson

This is exactly why the Constitution empowers only Congress, in Article 1 Section 8, to coin our money and regulate its value. Debt was a danger they all knew very well.

Back before America had Declared Independence, England had a Central Bank for many many years, and was drowning in Debt to this Bank. This caused King George to levy heavy taxes on their American Colonies, taxes on daily items such as Tea. This taxation of the American Colonies without Representation in the British Parliament, was the trigger for the Boston Tea Party...and as most of us know, was a trigger to our Declaring Independence from Great Britain, and for the American Revolutionary War. So one of the major changes the Framers intended to make was to prevent perpetual Debt to a Central Bank from crushing us and our posterity.

And yet here we are today, the Federal Reserve owns more of the US National Debt than any other singular entity, because we have ignored the warnings of our ancestors, and now we are suffering for that Ignorance.

reply to post by VeritasAequitas
[m
ore]

The entire system is a lie from the ground up, there is no need to "tax" the populace as they can print as much as they need at will, they only tax the people so the can force "the system" on them.

I at times, really think this world is a complete fabrication, much like but no limited too "the matrix" trilogy, and we are all unwilling and uninformed "test" populace that are simply being tested and experimented on to unknown ends and reasoning.

It has always been this way, it will not end, there is no route to take back to the source, there is no means of addressing the wrongs, they exist to force situations on us so they can see our reactions.

We will watch Rome burn around us, we will suffer the worst of the human condition, we will die and be freed of this "prison" we are all trapped in. How we react to all these stimuli are the end result of "them" herding us all, to what ends and what reactions "they" want to "evaluate".

We will see the bottom of the fiscal cliff, we will fall, we will accelerate at 32 feet per sec per sec, until we hit the bottom, we will see human suffering beyond CNN's ability to broadcast, and much worse, right here in America, and it will be on purpose, and planned over many years, the suffering will be great.

Wealth and fortune are imagined, skills and knowledge are forever, attain them, use them, pass them on. This is mans true worth, their wealth is now and always has been knowledge, it is the one currency they can not take, once you have them they are forever.

reply to post by inverslyproportional


I starred you because I think what you said is truth in it's highest form. Thank you, for understanding, sir!