Rationalizing Hell

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posted on Dec, 26 2012 @ 10:46 PM
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I was unsure of whether I should post this in the religion forum or not; but it's more of an open question regarding the idea of hell. This is an inquiry for the religious, non-religious, and those that would consider themselves spiritual in some form.

The first question is based on the religious interpretation of hell --- a place that all non-believers will be damned to for eternity. Well, can anyone here rationalize to me how eternal torture is a punishment worth this brief mortal existence? Do you find any reasonable aspect to this punishment? Do you really think that if everyone knew heaven or hell were the only options, they would pick the latter? Some will say that in this case there is no rationalizing, only acceptance. Even so, this is something that warrants more than just a brush to the side. Accepting that non-acceptance of a belief system merits endless suffering is something I can't rationalize; but I'd like to hear what others have to say.

Second question is; if you aren't religious, do you still believe in the "existence" of hell(s)? Why or why not. Do you think that hell is a metaphor for the suffering people experience as humans, as a collective? Is the concept of eternal hell actually one that covers consciousness as a whole, even though it's "split" into individual shells that give the illusion of self? In some way that would make sense; especially if you factored in the idea of endless beings existing across infinite time/space. Think simulation theory, as an example --- where a countless number of simulations are running repeatedly, simultaneously, and as a result a "infinite" number of conscious beings are manifested. Therefore there can be eternal suffering, and/or eternal bliss.

Lastly, is hell necessary? If it exist, is it a necessity to complete the balance? There's the notion that suffering gives meaning to happiness. In some ways I agree with that; at the same time it's hard to accept so many people experience pain on levels & in situations that you can't possibly see as acceptable to life. Then again perhaps that's just the nature of infinity/eternity.




posted on Dec, 26 2012 @ 11:01 PM
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IMHO nothing in creation is static, nor can stay the same over the course of time without death. Balance is something we witness in duality(creation) because the polar extremes both seek the middle ground over the course of time. I believe that one who acts out, does bad things,may certainly have a different afterlife than one who resists the temptations and violence. The soul is something that is being molded through life, and must find a balance before moving on. No balance, no moving on. But on the same token nobody can be unbalanced forever, its not possible.



posted on Dec, 26 2012 @ 11:02 PM
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As I pointed out in another thread, I think the fundamental flaw of religious systems that have a 'Hell', such as Christianity and Islam, is that if such a thing were real, they would reward intellectual dishonesty and punish intellectual honesty. The whole idea is that if someone adopts a scientific worldview and decides to believe what is evident to be true based on the best evidence we currently have, and they happen to have been wrong, they are condemned to suffer eternal agony. But someone who rejects the best empirical evidence we currently have in favor of their favorite conclusion, if they happen to be right, is rewarded with eternal bliss. It is a system that rewards the conclusion, not the approach. But it is the approach that determines whether a person is intellectually honest or dishonest. One could essentially say that these religious systems reward evil and punish good.



posted on Dec, 26 2012 @ 11:23 PM
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As you said in your first sentence, for me, hell is just an idea.

But ideas hold tremendous power. There is not one hell, or one hell for each of the big religions.
You create your own hell yourself. I believe we shape our afterlife while down here.

Each individual can create his own hell, and if he's masochist enough, he can trap himself in it for as long as he doesn't grasp the concept.

This comes from that duality problem. good vs bad, heaven vs hell...
But we are one. You can act to better yourself, but you can't cut off your bad side, it's part of a whole.

And hell is just a big bag of confusion with guilt, fear, regrets, remorse all intertwined.

Heaven is a bit like that too. Collective consciousness will shape different "heavens" according to different mindsets / beliefs. Catholics will meet in a catholic heaven with people sharing that same frequency. Same for any of the big religions. But I don't believe this is the end point, more like a trap to get stuck along the way.

Some souls will believe they deserve some kind of punishment and are waiting for some external manifestation. / someone to tell them it's "OK".
Meanwhile they can attach themselves to churches, cemetaries, thinking it's purgatory or other stuff of the same vein.
edit on 26-12-2012 by Chrysalis because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 26 2012 @ 11:31 PM
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In short OP its laws of attraction. I mean look @ EA*RTH art related to hell. That is presented from the artist over time there seem to be non humans in some of the art??????? Also, IS THERE A TELEPATHIC CONNECTION TO OTHER COLLECTIVES which allows artist to bring these images out into the physical, hmmm. Logical spiritual/internal energies experiences that occur during the phases of Life and Death within EXISTENCE may or should with hypothetical outlook cause gathering of SOME energies that are considered STABLE
and gathering/cycling of other less stable energies.. Until they become stable. If possible. So the locations of gather of stable energies and unstable energies both areas filled with multiple CREATOR Creation energies... That thru their activities either producing positive or negative energy upon others during their phases of life and death within EXISTENCE have caused them to attract to similar zones of safety or not? At least the eternal connection WITHIN OUR SOULS/SPIRITS/INTERNAL ENERGIES gives us time to ASCEND beyond the lower zones of havoc and ills IMAGINE them what many consider ET or T to EA*RTH gathered in same location with all their hatred--- deceiving by the millisecond each other for prana energy to gain strength to overcome each other as they forget there is always a bigger in the mist smh anyway OP snf for the mind think, very interesting what it takes to get the universal collectives to connect.

LOVE LIGHT ETERNIA*******
edit on 12/26/12 by Ophiuchus 13 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 26 2012 @ 11:47 PM
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If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed. (Albert Einstein)


I don't think that a God that promotes all-loving, would turn his self-imaged creation into an eternal slumber of torture. The bible says to love your enemy, so I assume God would do the same.



posted on Dec, 27 2012 @ 12:02 AM
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It is hard to rationalize, but I know hell is a real place because I have experienced it's keepers... I have seen them more than once, and they really hated me like they hate all humans..

Humankind was alread destined for total termination because of it's wickedness, and we all already deserve hell..

If you don't believe this, then perhaps the righteousness you are attributing to yourself will save your soul.. good luck with that one..

Only because of Christ can you be pardoned... believe or don't believe, no one is forcing anyone to believe it..

It's easy to jump on the bandwagon and not believe, it is much harder to believe.. It does begin with faith, but it isn't only limited to just blind faith, because many alive today have been visited by Christ himself in this current age..He had mercy on me, although I often wonder why.. I just hope I can fulfill my mission and do my part because I know hell exists and I definitely do not want to go there..

If any of you ever see hells minions you will know immediately who they are and you will be able to feel their hatred like a terminal disease.. because of what I know, I will never tell someone to go to hell, I wouldn't wish that place on the worst of the worst, it is that bad.

Knowing what I know:

1: Hell = very bad
2: I don't want to go there.
3: I'll do whatever it takes to not go there:
4: All I have to do is believe in Christ as a first step or just proudly live life and disregard all accountability...

Ill take the first option...
I fear God and I fear being sent to hell, and I apologize very often.. Humility is a virtue that the proud do not possess..pride is what happened to hells boss, didn't work out very well..

No, it doesn't seem rational, but neither does a whole lot of things..



posted on Dec, 27 2012 @ 12:06 AM
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1 feels though it can be a not understood process to guide the souls to perfection abilities... by experiencers of the process.. like the coal to diamond thru TIME AND PRESSURE PROCESS. Time around Ills teaches the that they are not really into being ill as much as they once may have thought = polishing of coal to diamond pressure from evol energies just as hatful as you makes the appreciate freedom from the pressure and makes the think of pressuring others OPPRESSION? So seems like more school for the SPIRIT/SOUL/INTERNAL ENERGY of the negative behaving part of the Creation family. .Also its hard for any CREATOR Creation to present 100% data of details of how the CREATOR manages Creations and their habitat with GOD SENDS and DEMI Gods. That is unless the CREATOR sends the data thru its GOD SENDS and DEMI Gods to further guide back to SOURCE or HOME its CREATIONS trying their best to not cause havoc and pain on others..

NAMASTE*******



posted on Dec, 27 2012 @ 01:14 AM
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Not every crime can be punishable if it is unknown, so they invented a way to punish those who committed their crimes in secret.

The Persians, the Chaldeans, the Egyptians, the Greeks invented punishments after life; and the Jews alone among all the ancient peoples known to us approved only temporal punishments. It is ridiculous to believe, or to pretend to believe, on the strength of a few very obscure passages, that hell was recognized by the ancients laws of the Jews, by their Leviticus, by their decalogue, when the author of these laws does not say a single word that could have the slightest bearing on punishments in the future life.

Why would the author of said book be content to allow this dogma to be guessed at by some commentators who are to come 4000 years after it was written and who will obscure some of its words to find in them something it did not say? Your guess is as good as mine.



posted on Dec, 27 2012 @ 02:15 AM
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From my non religious point of view, anything that not only encourages people
to believe but plainly states that one could suffer eternal punishment for a finite
offense is simply immoral, by this logic if someone stole a loaf of bread thereby
breaking the law of the land and hence breaking the command to obey the law
of the land, and since all sins are equal, if the did not repent, or even if they were
of a different faith and repented to the wrong god, they could then suffer for eternity
for stealing a loaf of bread..........

the idea of punishment or reward after death simply cheapens life and allows
those who do wrong to some how redeem themselves via repenting to an
imaginary being that has nothing to do with the situation, if you wrong someone
repenting to god does absolutely nothing, this reminds me of prayer, i see
people say things like, i just don't know what to do, ive prayed and prayed and
prayed and nothing has happened, well maybe if they actually DID something
instead of wishing things might happen........

truth is i believe religion is a means to immorality, an excuse used by many to
somehow make them above reproach, you can see this clearly in the claim
"only god can judge me". that's obviously wrong as every time i see that, i
judge the person simply for stating it lol, Hell and Heaven are simply the
means to an end, if no one is afraid of or wanting the reward of a religion then
they become utterly useless, all the good things that do come of religion
can be had without the church or religious organization.

so in summary, hell is simply a motivator of fear, heaven the motivator for those
who are not motivated by fear. gotta get it from both sides you see as people
will only bother if they get something outta the deal lmao.... and they think its
not a control mechanism roflol, sure its not control when someone threatens you
if you do not do what they say, thou shalt have no other gods before me,
sounds to me like he might have been worried about competition...... one true god lol



posted on Dec, 27 2012 @ 02:27 AM
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The doctrine of eternal conscious torment is a totally fictitious man-made heretical doctrine that is found NO WHERE in Scripture.

I've written exhaustively on the subject after performing countless hours of exegetical and hermeneutical study, cross referencing, etc., ... perhaps I should post my essays on ATS someday. Again, no where in Scripture does it speak of some mythical place in the New Heaven and New Earth where the fallen will suffer eternally in some dark corner of His restored universe, conveniently and neatly stowed from everything else. This is an abominable, absurd, self-refuting concept - not in keeping with the character of God or His revelation. Not logical or even theoretically possible. It's a ridiculously insane notion. Contemporary and ancient Jew alike did/do not recognize hell in the sense that Western Christianity does.

Hell is not a place; it is an event.

It is eternal only in consequence, not duration.

That being said ...

Even if you don't believe Scripture to be the true word of God, you can be certain that it does not speak of eternal conscious torment of the fallen in some ghoulish torturous hellfire (regardless of who the author is). I submit to you the following:

Scripture makes it clear that those who reject God will cease to exist; will be blotted out of existence. Hell IS a punishment, but it is not eternal.

Please consider: the Almighty - absolute reality, beingness itself - has created corporeal, conscious beings capable of understanding that He exists, who He is, and with that knowledge the ability to freely reject or freely accept Him.

When one of God's created decides they want nothing to do with Him or His law or His nature or His eternity or His path - what is He to do? Is He to bind you to himself for eternity against your will? Is that just? Is that fair? Is that wisdom?

In the end He is left with no choice but your own.

Would you actually WANT to be forced into His fold after knowingly and willfully rejecting Him?

As such, He has but one choice left which satisfies His standards for both justice and mercy.

You simply cease to exist - a bleak enough prospect, to be sure. But it's either that or forcing you against your will to join His kingdom. It is God, our Creator, framer of worlds ... honoring your free will in the highest degree imaginable.

And so it is ...

God decides to honor your free will in allowing you to reject Him, reject life itself ... or God decides to bind you to Himself for eternity without your consent.

Which of the two options is the higher justice? The higher mercy?
edit on 27-12-2012 by followtheevidence because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 27 2012 @ 02:36 AM
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reply to post by Raelsatu
 


Here's a better question:

Why give any credence to organized religions and their beliefs at all?

Of course there is no hell. It's self-contradictory. A loving God would not condemn souls to eternal hell.



posted on Dec, 27 2012 @ 03:46 AM
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reply to post by followtheevidence
 


This is actually a very interesting thing, most people don't know that this is actually
true, to me this is just one more thing that screams of man made control scheme,
not a divinely inspired guide to life. with so many oddities and fallacies in one belief
system how can anyone honestly buy into it? whats so wrong with choosing to
moral simply because you want to do good and not because you need to be
bribed or scared into it.



posted on Dec, 27 2012 @ 03:52 AM
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Life can be hell or heaven and life is eternal so if it feels like hell you will no doubt be trying to find a way out.
The game of life is it will hurt until you find the key to the puzzle.
There is a way out of hell and there is plenty of advice around for those who wish to go to the otherside (heaven).
It is all about where you are seeing from!



posted on Dec, 27 2012 @ 09:38 AM
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Eternal suffering or what religions call "Hell" is a joke IMO, and here is why. Hell is a place where they say people go because they are bad, and they then spend their time in eternal suffering.

Eternal suffering becomes the norm after a while and is a constant, so contrast would not exist.

But if I did try to rationalize hell or create a hell for people, then the following is exactly what it would be:

If I really wanted bad people to suffer I would toss them into a physical world of Ups and downs, days' and nights, love and hate, cold and hot, because here they would be able to ride a chaotic emotional roller coaster during the day and the night. They would cling to anything that would lend them comfort, like religions, working countless hours to provide themselves an elusive security, fear of the unknown, constant soul searching.

Knowing and feeling differences in a delusional world would be the ultimate hell.

I would also block out their true essence, I would make them be born into a physical world without the ability to care for themselves until years later, then I would toss in something called an Ego, so they would never find their true essence. People that did find their true essence would be ridiculed by the madness around them, thus being plunged back into the delusional world around them by self doubt.

Hell is just a word, and what we associate it with by the terms we are fed from birth, and by the society we are raised in.
edit on 27-12-2012 by Realtruth because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 27 2012 @ 10:04 AM
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If we assume that there is a God, then I believe that he is our father and loves us as a parent loves a child.

A loving parent doesn't punish a child just to be mean, but instead uses discipline as a tool to help the child learn and grow. And, like any loving parent, God will always welcome back a child who is ready to behave and follow the "house rules."

In my mind, then, hell would come into play when people decide that they don't want the things that God wants for them, but instead want to do their own thing.

So, I don't believe that God thrusts people down to hell, but that there is a natural separation (barrier) between the souls of people who want to be good and become like God and the souls of those who don't.



posted on Dec, 29 2012 @ 11:41 PM
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reply to post by Raelsatu
 


Brother, or sister, from my research i have found that Hell
has been perpetuated in one form or another as a way to
invoke fear in those that "believe" so as to keep those
donations coming in and to keep those "chosen" ones
in line.
It's the old "Good cop, Bad cop" routine.
"Hey, Satan and Hell are rotten and baaaad, you'll be
In so much pain, but God is
Goood, he'll protect you. You'll bee sooo happy.
Now, just donate what you can and
say the hail marries."



posted on Dec, 31 2012 @ 02:45 PM
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The first question is based on the religious interpretation of hell --- a place that all non-believers will be damned to for eternity. Well, can anyone here rationalize to me how eternal torture is a punishment worth this brief mortal existence? Do you find any reasonable aspect to this punishment? Do you really think that if everyone knew heaven or hell were the only options, they would pick the latter? Some will say that in this case there is no rationalizing, only acceptance. Even so, this is something that warrants more than just a brush to the side. Accepting that non-acceptance of a belief system merits endless suffering is something I can't rationalize; but I'd like to hear what others have to say.


Ah, asking for rationalization of a doctrine that is built on misinterpretation is confusing... Hell is not set aside for mankind. There is responsibility to be taken, but eternal torment in hell with fire and brimstone is not the punishment or consequences for humans.


Second question is; if you aren't religious, do you still believe in the "existence" of hell(s)? Why or why not. Do you think that hell is a metaphor for the suffering people experience as humans, as a collective? Is the concept of eternal hell actually one that covers consciousness as a whole, even though it's "split" into individual shells that give the illusion of self? In some way that would make sense; especially if you factored in the idea of endless beings existing across infinite time/space. Think simulation theory, as an example --- where a countless number of simulations are running repeatedly, simultaneously, and as a result a "infinite" number of conscious beings are manifested. Therefore there can be eternal suffering, and/or eternal bliss.


Yes, I think hell does exist, but not to the extent that people think. Hell, the lake of fire, is reserved for Satan, his followers, and death. Book of Revelations details this. The consequences for bad is a Sheol-like state in where you stay in darkness and are left to your thoughts and deeds. The Book of Enoch details this.


Lastly, is hell necessary? If it exist, is it a necessity to complete the balance? There's the notion that suffering gives meaning to happiness. In some ways I agree with that; at the same time it's hard to accept so many people experience pain on levels & in situations that you can't possibly see as acceptable to life. Then again perhaps that's just the nature of infinity/eternity.


Necessary for who? If you are eternally suffering in hell, what chance is there for happiness?



posted on Jan, 3 2013 @ 03:26 AM
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The bottom line is FEAR. THEY create the fear, you accept it, they control you. Control
Is the end game. He who controls the most...wins....see Monopoly board game. Simple.



posted on Jan, 3 2013 @ 06:35 PM
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To begin with your primise that all non beleivers go to hell where is that found in Christian doctine?





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