U.S. to Hit Debt Limit 12/31/12, This is different from the “Fiscal Cliff”

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posted on Dec, 27 2012 @ 08:53 PM
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Originally posted by jimmyx

Originally posted by criticalmindseed
snip wall st, print money to pay someone who needs work to build a new school or bridge or something, go back to gold standard & outlaw usury....

problem solved.


you are the exact reason that an education in economics needs to be taught. please do some actual research during the 1800's of america of the booms and busts of the economy. this has been tried, nothing new except ignorance. please explain IN DETAIL how going back to the gold standard would be a benefit.


www.youtube.com...

Watch this doc. It explains IN DETAIL the problems caused by fractional banking and how they can be solved by allowing the U.S. Treasury to take over the printing of our money to pay off debt.

You ask why it hasn't been done already? Let's see, every pres that has tried has been assassinated.
edit on 27-12-2012 by Kusinjo because: (no reason given)
edit on 27-12-2012 by Kusinjo because: wow woops forgot to post the link.




posted on Dec, 27 2012 @ 08:59 PM
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Originally posted by WhereIsReality
They will raise the debt celling and the show will go on. Business as usual.


Until the wheels fall off and they are pretty wobbly now...



posted on Dec, 27 2012 @ 09:36 PM
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Talk about wobbly wheels? Try wobbly wheels, bent axles, blown out bearings, and a drunk driver.



posted on Dec, 27 2012 @ 10:10 PM
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Timmy Geithner as Gomer Pyle, "Surprise, Surprise!!"
Hopefully Not Aug, 2011 Part Deux (dollar downgrade)



posted on Dec, 27 2012 @ 10:14 PM
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reply to post by Kusinjo
 

The Gold Standard is too rigid but has worked...the Fractional Reserve Banking System works for a time but always ends in disaster. What we need is a hybrid where the monetary system is "nominally" backed by gold (and or a basket of commodities, including gold) much like the current Reserve Requirement in banking today (except gold or the basket is kept in reserve instead of fiat money). That way the money supply can be expanded some when it is necessary (times of crisis) but yet there is something of real value backing the currency (at least in part - enough to imbue confidence in the system and make it a quasi store of value as well).
edit on 27-12-2012 by CosmicCitizen because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 28 2012 @ 01:31 AM
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Fractional banking only works for the bankers. It doesn't hurt anyone for awhile, is more accurate in my opinion. If I were given the ability to create money out of thin air and lend it you with the promise of being paid back with interest, then I am getting something for nothing. But then to turn around and take that very money that I created to lend to you and relend it again and again... Wow!!! It doesn't hurt as long as you can pay me back what I lent you along with the interest but how long will it be before you need to borrow again? How long will it be until your need to borrow becomes so inflated that there is no way I will ever see another dime from you? But that's alright I can just create money from thin air, no worries! For me. You, on the other hand, are screwed. I own you.



posted on Dec, 29 2012 @ 10:11 AM
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Originally posted by Kusinjo
Fractional banking only works for the bankers. It doesn't hurt anyone for awhile, is more accurate in my opinion. If I were given the ability to create money out of thin air and lend it you with the promise of being paid back with interest, then I am getting something for nothing. But then to turn around and take that very money that I created to lend to you and relend it again and again... Wow!!! It doesn't hurt as long as you can pay me back what I lent you along with the interest but how long will it be before you need to borrow again? How long will it be until your need to borrow becomes so inflated that there is no way I will ever see another dime from you? But that's alright I can just create money from thin air, no worries! For me. You, on the other hand, are screwed. I own you.


Also they never create the money you need to pay the interest so there is always a false lack as everyone competes for the money created to pay the interest of course there is not enough money to do that hence you have the haves and the have nots.

What is needed is a free market in currency not a government mandated gold standard. It's nobodies business what we transact with except ours and those whom we transact with. The market would settle on a bi-metal and commodities standard and fractional reserve banks would die of attrition as people gravitate to sound money.



posted on Dec, 29 2012 @ 08:47 PM
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Exactly, but the bankers will never allow that to happen. If you look at all the wars the the U.S. was involved in, every single instance up to Vietnam (and I think they just got better at hiding it by then) the Central Bank of England and, by 1913, the Federal Reserve Bank played huge roles, directly and indirectly, when the wars would start and end. If you want a huge example of what I mean; do some reading about the involvement of the CBE in the war of 1812. Not the only example by no means but imo the most blatant and obvious.
edit on 29-12-2012 by Kusinjo because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 29 2012 @ 08:55 PM
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"suck it, fishies and birdies. . ."



Enjoy!!

edit on 29-12-2012 by unityemissions because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 29 2012 @ 09:13 PM
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If they really wanted to end our misery's, simply print & introduce a new 1 Trillion dollar note (Only 17 needed), pay off their debt and ask for the change back. It's all imaginary paper anyway




Simple!!

edit on 29-12-2012 by DarthPhobos because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 29 2012 @ 10:06 PM
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Just to correct some mis-information floating around in this thread.

Our credit rating wasn't down graded because we raised the debt limit. It was down graded because there was a threat that we were NOT going to raise the debt limit.

Just sit back and think about it LOGICALLY for a second. What does a CREDIT rating mean? It gives a score about how reliable you are in paying back your DEBTS. This Credit rating is used so that countries know what other countries are reliable to lend to and that they will pay off their debts.

When the Republicans threatened to not raise our debt limit and thus default on our debt, the S&P was forced to down grade our Credit rating because we were very very close to defaulting on our debts.

So please, stop with the mis-information, our CREDIT rating wasn't down graded because we raised our self imposed debt limit in order to pay off our already accumulated debt.



posted on Dec, 29 2012 @ 11:48 PM
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reply to post by xedocodex
 

If that were the case why wasn't it upgraded after the debt ceiling was raised?



posted on Dec, 30 2012 @ 05:59 AM
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reply to post by xedocodex
 


Here's the complete statement from Stand & Poors www.standardandpoors.com...

It wasn't so much that we wouldn't raise the debt ceiling, it was that our elected officials were using the debt ceiling as a weapon in their stupid games




The political brinksmanship of recent months highlights what we see as America's governance and policymaking becoming less stable, less effective, and less predictable than what we previously believed. The statutory debt ceiling and the threat of default have become political bargaining chips in the debate over fiscal policy. Despite this year's wide-ranging debate, in our view, the differences between political parties have proven to be extraordinarily difficult to bridge, and, as we see it, the resulting agreement fell well short of the comprehensive fiscal consolidation program that some proponents had envisaged until quite recently. Republicans and Democrats have only been able to agree to relatively modest savings on discretionary spending while delegating to the Select Committee decisions on more comprehensive measures. It appears that for now, new revenues have dropped down on the menu of policy options. In addition, the plan envisions only minor policy changes on Medicare and little change in other entitlements, the containment of which we and most other independent observers regard as key to long-term fiscal sustainability.

Emphasis mine

IMVHO, I think the political body is going to happily allow us to go over the fiscal cliff, so that the immediate forced austerity to the US will be blamed on Congress rather than Obama
edit on 12/30/12 by redhatty because: spelling



posted on Dec, 30 2012 @ 06:41 AM
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Dear Washington,

Cut back your military operations and withdraw troops.
Cut the life line to wall street..too big to fail has passed!
Stop sending our jobs to Asia.

sincerely,
we the people..



posted on Dec, 30 2012 @ 06:55 AM
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Originally posted by redhatty
IMVHO, I think the political body is going to happily allow us to go over the fiscal cliff, so that the immediate forced austerity to the US will be blamed on Congress rather than Obama

What about the debt ceiling? Even with all the austerity measures and tax increases, the revenues will still not match the spending and the treasury needs to borrow. Since the current debt ceiling will be hit very shortly, it is going to be very funny situation if the Congress doesn't either increase the debt ceiling or remove it completely. It will be a scenario where the administration has to necessarily ignore some part of what Congress passed debt ceiling/spending/taxes or default and/or let the administration come to a halt.



posted on Dec, 30 2012 @ 07:14 AM
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Originally posted by Observor
What about the debt ceiling? Even with all the austerity measures and tax increases, the revenues will still not match the spending and the treasury needs to borrow. Since the current debt ceiling will be hit very shortly, it is going to be very funny situation if the Congress doesn't either increase the debt ceiling or remove it completely. It will be a scenario where the administration has to necessarily ignore some part of what Congress passed debt ceiling/spending/taxes or default and/or let the administration come to a halt.


When the debt ceiling is reached, other than a few maneuvers that can delay for about 2 months the inevitable, the only thing that happens is the US will not be able to borrow to support it's spending, again, forced austerity. What that will entail, I don't know, as I do not see corporate welfare being eliminated, not the Military Industrial Complex being de-funded, so I imagine it will be the "entitlement programs" and federal pensions that will be the first to be hit.

Greece, Spain, Italy, Portugal, Ireland & other countries have been forced to enact austerity programs of some kind, all because they borrowed too much & didn't have the revenues to even pay the interest on their debt. The US is not much different & our political body KNOWS this.

But for Obama to go on TV & announce that HE is forcing austerity upon the American People, well that would cause a huge change in the populace perception of him, by allowing the austerity to be forced via Congress not being able to "come together," Obama stays "smelling like a rose" yet the forced changes still happen.

As I said, just my VERY humble opinion...



posted on Dec, 30 2012 @ 07:21 AM
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my guess is that they will reach an agreement in the last hour or two for the fiscal cliff, and well, read the bill carefully, because I would also guess that there will be crap added that none of us will actually like!!
as far as the debt ceiling, it will be raised, even if they do downgrade our credit a notch, it will still be better than most of the other countries in the world and will not affect the bonds that much.
there really aren't that many safe investments left in the world...

but I really do expect there to be a few surpises that they will slip into the fiscal cliff deal, either that or the surprise will be that they let the fiscal cliff come, and well, they can go on blaming each other for eternity for the mess doing what they really should be doing brings about!!
if we want a balanced budget anytime in the future, we need to raise taxes and drastically cut spending.
we can all accept some tax hikes, as long as they don't affect us or interfer with our pet programs, and we can all support certain cuts, just not those that affect us, or interfer with our pet programs....
and our interests are very varied. the fiscal cliff would be about the closest to fair we will probably get.



posted on Dec, 30 2012 @ 07:32 AM
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reply to post by redhatty
 

It is not possible for the President, under the current rules, to cut spending or raise taxes on his own, it needs the Congressional approval. It is also not possible for him, again under the current rules, to borrow more than he is authorised to.

So when the debt ceiling is hit, it means he is forced to ignore at least one of the current rules. Which one he chooses to ignore: taxes, spending or debt ceiling is anybody's guess. But I suspect he will simply ignore the debt ceiling imposed and borrow more, meaning the debt ceiling becomes irrelevant afterwards.
edit on 30-12-2012 by Observor because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 30 2012 @ 07:55 AM
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reply to post by Observor
 


The President doesn't do any of the borrowing, the US Treasury does & the head of that is Timothy Geithner. Congress will have to decide which allocations will be defunded - specifically the House of Representatives (where all spending bills must originate according to the Constitution)



posted on Dec, 30 2012 @ 08:10 AM
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reply to post by nidstav
 


I see your points, but still consider them to be rendered moot by the Federal Reserve.
As long as it is the Primary player, all that will happen is that they will buy bonds and
create "stimulous" in the form of buying stocks also.
With free money, they will end up being the controlling stockholder of most US companies,
via the stockmarket and the controller of states and cities via municipal bonds.

This does nothing, of course, to help the overall economy and obviously isn't meant to.





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