Thoughts from a former Christian

reply to post by JackMack

Well said. Christianity is a perversion of the predecessors it borrowed its theology from. It is neither original, nor does its god exist. It is a cult, and one of the biggest, most successful hoaxes ever perpetrated on the masses. But even more disgusting, is that the "leaders" of the Christian church know it.

reply to post by ddaniel

BRAVO!!

Beautifully written; there are many of us who will wholeheartedly stand at your side and hawk this message....
Welcome to the collective ATS voice for 'hope and change'.

The basic idea of the sermon was, in a nutshell, this: the world is fallen, and will remain a horrible place until Jesus returns. The pastor quoted verses from Isaiah and Daniel, and spoke often of the 'miracle' of prophecy in the Bible. This may sound like the extremist views of a small church in the middle of nowhere, but that is far from the truth. The service we attended was one of 6 delivered that day, each to an audience of over 5000 people. The pastor was formerly the leader of the Southern Baptist Convention, and the attendees were predominantly members of affluent, educated families.

To my mind, it is unfathomable how people can just throw their hands up and say, "Well, there's no help for it; nothing will ever change. We just have to wait for Jesus."

BOLLOCKS!! Not only defeatist but utterly counterproductive and scapegoating.

PLEASE, people....realize and OWN YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to DENY the ideas delineated by the "church leader" in the anecdote given in the OP.

ddaniel; S/F,
today the daylight hours become longer in another cycle of growth following dormancy. Let us hope that some of the souls trapped in dogmatic pessimism and idle, pointless "waiting" of fundamentalism will step up and say "The Emperor wears no clothes!" Each holiday season opens the door for maturity and ownership. We are all STAKEHOLDERS on this planet - ACT LIKE IT!!

Originally posted by DOLCOTT
reply to post by sinthia

 

Well said, that is the major problem today. Main Stream churches are dictating what believers should believe. God gave each man and women free will and the ability to learn. The Bible clearly states that as you mature in the word the truth will be reveiled.

No doubt. A classic example of the blind leading the blind. But nonetheless, you have to admire the faith that these folks have in thier preachers/ministers. They believe it all. One thing I'm weary of is "speaking in tongues" that most penecostal churches promote.... I was made to attend these services as a child, and upon seeing that, the questions arose and ever since then the questions have continued to build.

But hey, according to the Bible.... Satan/Luscifer hooked it up with the ability to KNOW. Before that, Adam and Eve where like pets in a garden. Not sure if Satan/Luscifer did it out of spite and anger that MAN was held to a higher standard than angels in God's eyes, or if Satan/Luscifer was just helping??

I find it fascinating though, that many folks run to religion for comfort, especially when they get a bit older. Its the search for the afterlife and the hope that there is one.
But raising a child in a church, is brainwashing.

reply to post by Murgatroid


I loved the Op's post, but your redirection of hate is something rooted deeply in the fear-mongering of Christianity. Thank you for proving the OP's point.

reply to post by ddaniel


First let me say that in my debates with what I call professional atheists, that the OP does seem to me to be a prepared script, but, be that as it may be, I will attempt to "nutshell" some observations to you that Christians who have faith understand.

Every Christian knows that feelings tend to betray you. You don't feel faith you have faith. faith is based upon being convinced that what you know and believe is the truth no matter how you feel and no matter what rises up against it.

Also, you don't really seem to understand the state of mankind, because mankind is in rebellion to the will of God and has been since Adam chose to defy God in order to be like God on his own. because of this we have wars and death and all kinds of sin and lawlessness. This is the condition of man. Therefore, prophetic judgements and revelations of terrible evils are told to man in order to get him to change, but he will refuse.

The next thing you did, was to follow your own heart and seek your own version of what is truth to you. The Bible says that the heart of man is desperately wicked, who can know it ? (meaning, cam a man know it ) When you choose willingly to say that God's word is like other words that are spoken and are no better than they, and to consider the words of you own heart to be above those of God, you become just like Adam who sinned be cause he put his own heart above the words of God. Therefore, your heart, as did your feelings, has deceived you so that you do not trust God, nor His words.

The next thing needed to defy God is to argue against His Holy word, and you do this by pointing a finger to say, "doesn't it say we are to love our neighbor...?" as if God can be found to be at fault which He cannot. The truth here as every true Christian knows, is that what this means is, if someone is hungry, naked, and sick, feed him, clothe him, and heal him, even if it's your enemy "asking and pleading " for help. But, at the same time, it is the duty of a man to preserve life and to protect it, and sometimes that means going to war to prevent a gret evil from arising and doing harm. If a man seeks to kill a person and you see him in the act, and the only way to stop him is for you to kill him, you kill him and save the life. The man who died received what he intended for his poor victim.

In ending, I would say that you need to make your choice of life or death, and do so by a faith that is not based on feelings or your own hearts desire to seek it's own path. The Bible says in the book of Proverbs, " There is a way that seems right to a man, but it ends in death."

Think hard, consider, and make your choice, and if possible and it still remains within you, ask God to reveal the truth to you and confirm it by what is written in the Bible. And if you're a professional atheist debater, you should still consider what I said, as hard as that is for an atheist.

reply to post by ddaniel


Can I get an Amen!

Wise words indeed. While it's only my opinion, I whole heartily agree with you. Finding the love of God on your own is the only true way to do it. It's scary and feels dirty to turn your back on the "the church" but once you do that, you find your truth, your God, your savior.

One of the things I learned from my observations on the content of any given religion (minus Satanism) is that religion is not bad it's people who are bad.

We cannot blame religion for the bad decisions certain make. True believers of the message of God would not transcend any of the 10 commandments. Would not lie to, cheat, steal off, kill or disrespect others. He wouldn't do to other what he doesn't want done to him. It is that simple. Those who claim being the followers of God and transcends any of those are not the followers of God and have fallen pray to their own freewill of rationalization of what is right and wrong. They got twisted in the "game".

Thy shall not kill. No ifs of buts it means what it means. Yet, some find ways to rationalize that killing in the name of this or that is okay. This is just one of the 10 commandments as all of you already know and we can go on all day on how people find ways to betray the Word..

Once some transcend the Word others are quick to cry out that religion is what brainwashed them into doing these atrocities. Brainwashed yes but with the wrong message. Not the word of God. Unclean words.

reply to post by Fromabove

Every Christian knows that feelings tend to betray you. You don't feel faith you have faith. faith is based upon being convinced that what you know and believe is the truth no matter how you feel and no matter what rises up against it.

And this is all we really need to see to know that a Christian would look the truth in the eye and call it a lie. Such a person isn't exactly reliable in areas of worldly knowledge. They may be able to grasp 'what', but not 'how' or 'why',

The rest of your post is more of the same. I would be interested in discussing this subject with you on a more personal note. Feel free to message me privately.

reply to post by network dude


AMEN, you said a mouthful and wise words to be listened too, religion should not be used as a crutch or an excuse. Even if the Bible was wrong (IMO) it is correct, the lessons taught by Jesus about living everyday life would make the world a much better place. Christains need to do more and talk less, good deeds speak volumnes while sermons show nothing.

Originally posted by DOLCOTT
reply to post by network dude

 

AMEN, you said a mouthful and wise words to be listened too, religion should not be used as a crutch or an excuse. Even if the Bible was wrong (IMO) it is correct, the lessons taught by Jesus about living everyday life would make the world a much better place. Christains need to do more and talk less, good deeds speak volumnes while sermons show nothing.

Once went to a sermon with an ex GF.
the first 10 minutes was some scripture.... Then the Preacher somehow tied it into Tithes & Offerings.... And then the sermon for the next hour or so was all about giving the church money.

Whack.

Originally posted by resoe26

Originally posted by DOLCOTT
reply to post by network dude

 

AMEN, you said a mouthful and wise words to be listened too, religion should not be used as a crutch or an excuse. Even if the Bible was wrong (IMO) it is correct, the lessons taught by Jesus about living everyday life would make the world a much better place. Christains need to do more and talk less, good deeds speak volumnes while sermons show nothing.

Once went to a sermon with an ex GF.
the first 10 minutes was some scripture.... Then the Preacher somehow tied it into Tithes & Offerings.... And then the sermon for the next hour or so was all about giving the church money.

Whack.

Where did you think churches get their money, from the money tree in the back yard ? Perhaps the sermon was on the need to support your church as people are mostly stingy with their money when it comes the needs of the church. Were you offended because they need money too and had to ask ? Did you know that the Bible itself teaches on tithing and that can be found in Malachi chapter 3.

Hi ddaniel

Is it not written that Jesus came to divide...daughters against mothers etc? Was it not foretold that the world would fall? So why would you question a group of Christians who believe this?

It is as it was written and you have every choice to change what you believe needs to be changed outside and within. Be free with your choice and celebrate others in this freedom...even if your perception of their choice does not resonate within.

The Bible is a tool, just as many other works are tools. They are here to provide you with a lifetime of opportunity to reveal that which is closest to your heart.

Originally posted by Fromabove

Originally posted by resoe26

Originally posted by DOLCOTT
reply to post by network dude

 

AMEN, you said a mouthful and wise words to be listened too, religion should not be used as a crutch or an excuse. Even if the Bible was wrong (IMO) it is correct, the lessons taught by Jesus about living everyday life would make the world a much better place. Christains need to do more and talk less, good deeds speak volumnes while sermons show nothing.

Once went to a sermon with an ex GF.
the first 10 minutes was some scripture.... Then the Preacher somehow tied it into Tithes & Offerings.... And then the sermon for the next hour or so was all about giving the church money.

Whack.

Where did you think churches get their money, from the money tree in the back yard ? Perhaps the sermon was on the need to support your church as people are mostly stingy with their money when it comes the needs of the church. Were you offended because they need money too and had to ask ? Did you know that the Bible itself teaches on tithing and that can be found in Malachi chapter 3.

Hey Bub, I'm not bashing churches. I was simply telling a story of an account I had with A church in particular. This is a large church by the way, In a wealthy area.

Was I offended, No? But I did attend to hear some ministry, something insightful perhaps... But all I got was preaching about giving tithes and offerings. That was the third time I had been there. And each time, the same preacher/pastor, that was all he talked about. Money. It's just a.... "c'mon man....for real.... Again?"

Oh and pardon ME if I had offended you! Your reply seemed rather.... guided by emotion...

Check this link for some insight.

Tithing (The Truth)

Originally posted by resoe26

Originally posted by Fromabove

Originally posted by resoe26

Originally posted by DOLCOTT
reply to post by network dude

 

AMEN, you said a mouthful and wise words to be listened too, religion should not be used as a crutch or an excuse. Even if the Bible was wrong (IMO) it is correct, the lessons taught by Jesus about living everyday life would make the world a much better place. Christains need to do more and talk less, good deeds speak volumnes while sermons show nothing.

Once went to a sermon with an ex GF.
the first 10 minutes was some scripture.... Then the Preacher somehow tied it into Tithes & Offerings.... And then the sermon for the next hour or so was all about giving the church money.

Whack.

Where did you think churches get their money, from the money tree in the back yard ? Perhaps the sermon was on the need to support your church as people are mostly stingy with their money when it comes the needs of the church. Were you offended because they need money too and had to ask ? Did you know that the Bible itself teaches on tithing and that can be found in Malachi chapter 3.

Hey Bub, I'm not bashing churches. I was simply telling a story of an account I had with A church in particular. This is a large church by the way, In a wealthy area.

Was I offended, No? But I did attend to hear some ministry, something insightful perhaps... But all I got was preaching about giving tithes and offerings. That was the third time I had been there. And each time, the same preacher/pastor, that was all he talked about. Money. It's just a.... "c'mon man....for real.... Again?"

Oh and pardon ME if I had offended you! Your reply seemed rather.... guided by emotion...

Check this link for some insight.

Tithing (The Truth)

Bob, in no way am I offended, but what's the point of complaining about a church with people in it that aren't tithing so the pastor has to keep reminding them that it's a command of God to tithe. The Bible is full of wisdom, if the sermon bores you to tears, find something to read and then go to the pastor and ask him why he keeps asking his church for money. He may tell you. But it don't take a genius to see that it was (let us not say bash) a complaint against the church for having to ask it's attendees to help out with the bills. Does it not sound that way to you ? If not, please at least let me know what point you were making so I can understand it better.

reply to post by resoe26

Originally posted by sinthia
I don't know what the point of these kind of posts are unless it is seeking approval or praise for saying what is generally accepted by ATS peers.

I see this forum as a place to spread ideas, and I think this is a discussion worth having. I couldn't care less about approval from ATS, or anyone for that matter.

It's actually ironic you would say that, because I very much cared about approval when I was still involved with the Church, as my personal convictions had to be held in constant check against the rigid doctrines of the Church, lest I 'stray from grace'. Freedom from this need for approval is incredibly empowering.

As you say you were bought up a fundamentalist Christian, I find it astonishing that you hadn't heard the content of the sermon before.

I've heard this sermon, and dozens like it, numerous times throughout my life. It always bothered me, but in this particular instance I was more disturbed with the way this message was received: people thought it was a message of love and hope, while to me it seemed nothing but disempowering.

In a nutshell, the Bible tells the story of a fallen world, saved by its own creator though the ultimate sacrifice, and that ends when the enemy is defeated when the creator returns. Even with a basic understanding this should be obvious.

This is your opinion. Mine differs. Ignoring the Old Testament (which is a whole different beast), I see the message of the Gospel to be, simply: love. Love God (or whatever name you want to use), love your self, love your neighbor.

Why would a creator make something He/She needed to save? If the 'enemy' isn't defeated until the creator returns, what is the point of trying to bring more love into the world? On whose authority do you speak in regard to future events? Scholars in the time of Jesus thought they understood prophecy as well, and Jesus died for it.

Despite the ignorant posts by others who seem to have decided that other Christians blindly accept what is told to them without question, this is not the case. Granted, there will be some who do follow a faith unquestioningly, but it is illogical to assume the same mindset for all.

I'm sorry if this is how I came across. There are some outstandingly wonderful, lucid Christians, as there are wonderful, lucid people from all faiths. The problem is, the message of the Church as a whole is that of a hero complex: the world is fallen, and souls need to be saved by Jesus to avoid Hell. We can help 'save' others through 'spreading God's word'.

If Christians truly believe in Hell while possessing the type of love Christ demonstrated, the Church wouldn't be so apathetic to the rest of the world's suffering.

OK, you've lost your faith, so what now?

How do you define faith? Accepting the beliefs of others as your own, without personal experience?

How can one have faith in anything beside their own intuition / heart / convictions? I haven't 'lost faith', I have gained it through a personal quest for Truth.

Do you act like some kind of arrogant superior looking down at the ignorance of those you once counted yourself a part of?

According to my personal belief, it is impossible for me to be 'superior' to anyone else, as we are all connected. This is the source of my conviction: any personal revelations or developments I might have are meaningless unless they collectively benefit our species. In order to move forward as humans we must work together with a loving and understanding spirit, and organized religion as it exists today doesn't allow for this.

Do you assume through your own misunderstanding that those same people have a defeatist attitude (even though it is apparent that you lack the basic understanding of what they are supposed to be defeated by)? Or do you ask the Holy Spirit to open up the scriptures to you so that you can see how ridiculous your opening post is, and find the truth that is in the Bible, which will truly astound you if you rely on it, rather than the teachings of men/churches

edit on 26-12-2012 by sinthia because: spelling

If you believe humanity requires an external savior to solve our problems, then you are, definitively, adopting a defeatist attitude.

I have earnestly asked the Holy Spirit (or God, or Creation, Jesus, etc) to show me Truth. I have gained great insight through reading the Bible, as well as the Koran, the Bhagavad Gita, and many other writings, but the institutions representing each respective book seem to be more focused on what divides us than what binds us together, and allow feelings of superiority and hatred to take the place of unconditional love.

Originally posted by Fromabove

Originally posted by resoe26

Originally posted by Fromabove

Originally posted by resoe26

Originally posted by DOLCOTT
reply to post by network dude

 

AMEN, you said a mouthful and wise words to be listened too, religion should not be used as a crutch or an excuse. Even if the Bible was wrong (IMO) it is correct, the lessons taught by Jesus about living everyday life would make the world a much better place. Christains need to do more and talk less, good deeds speak volumnes while sermons show nothing.

Once went to a sermon with an ex GF.
the first 10 minutes was some scripture.... Then the Preacher somehow tied it into Tithes & Offerings.... And then the sermon for the next hour or so was all about giving the church money.

Whack.

Where did you think churches get their money, from the money tree in the back yard ? Perhaps the sermon was on the need to support your church as people are mostly stingy with their money when it comes the needs of the church. Were you offended because they need money too and had to ask ? Did you know that the Bible itself teaches on tithing and that can be found in Malachi chapter 3.

Hey Bub, I'm not bashing churches. I was simply telling a story of an account I had with A church in particular. This is a large church by the way, In a wealthy area.

Was I offended, No? But I did attend to hear some ministry, something insightful perhaps... But all I got was preaching about giving tithes and offerings. That was the third time I had been there. And each time, the same preacher/pastor, that was all he talked about. Money. It's just a.... "c'mon man....for real.... Again?"

Oh and pardon ME if I had offended you! Your reply seemed rather.... guided by emotion...

Check this link for some insight.

Tithing (The Truth)

Bob, in no way am I offended, but what's the point of complaining about a church with people in it that aren't tithing so the pastor has to keep reminding them that it's a command of God to tithe. The Bible is full of wisdom, if the sermon bores you to tears, find something to read and then go to the pastor and ask him why he keeps asking his church for money. He may tell you. But it don't take a genius to see that it was (let us not say bash) a complaint against the church for having to ask it's attendees to help out with the bills. Does it not sound that way to you ? If not, please at least let me know what point you were making so I can understand it better.

Well if you read the link I posted, It talks about Tithing.
And you're most likely correct. I'm sure the church doesn't put out enough dollars for the bills huh... Even though that church has added on to the building every year for the past 5 years... They even have an ice cream shop in there... Indoor childrens playground... bunch of stuff! I'm telling you. It's big... They make money everywhere in there.
(and that is something that Jesus preached against)
Didn't he flip tables in a temple/church etc. for that!?

And see, if you were there, you would see my point. But obviously, you wish to point a finger at me concerning this Tithe thing... Maybe I shouldn't have posted at all..... And now you have your panties in a bunch... I'm deeply sorry.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by resoe26

 

can you sum up the video for me...
Can't watch it hermano/hermana

Originally posted by ddaniel

What's funny is, I never really felt I 'knew' Jesus until I stepped away from the Christian indoctrination I was raised to adhere to.

What you did there was take a step away from the exoteric layer of religion and toward the esoteric. Away from the spiritual equivalent of babes milk and toward the solid food of mysticism. Careful you don't over-step.

I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready.

-1 Corinthians 3:2

Both layers are necessary if a religion is to perform all its functions for a culture. Both layers interact and help each other to evolve over time.

reply to post by Fromabove

Where did you think churches get their money, from the money tree in the back yard ? Perhaps the sermon was on the need to support your church as people are mostly stingy with their money when it comes the needs of the church. Were you offended because they need money too and had to ask ? Did you know that the Bible itself teaches on tithing and that can be found in Malachi chapter 3.

Tithing was one of the laws you were freed from when Christ supposedly sacrificed himself for you. As a Christian, you should already know that tithing is not a new covenant teaching. You were freed from "the law of sin and death".

But yes, go ahead and keep putting your hard earned money in the coffers of the church, so your "leaders" can continue living their lavish lifestyles off the backs of those who really need the money they've earned to care for themselves, and their families.