The Truth About Christmas

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posted on Dec, 26 2012 @ 01:10 PM
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Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by adjensen

The Bible says don't worship the tree. It also says don't worship your kids or anything else that isn't God, so what's the difference?

You show me someone who prays to their Christmas tree, thinks that it is divine and can bring them salvation, and maybe you'll make a point.


Having kids and dressing them is different than putting up a tree and decorating it in a way the Bible says not to do.

Jeremiah 10:2-4 (KJV)
2Thus saith The Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. 3For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. 4They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

Yes, you already posted that. And I already said it's against idolatry and asked you to demonstrate that people worship Christmas trees. Hooray, we've come full circle, and you still haven't said anything.




Originally posted by adjensen

Several, yes.


Did you seek your titles? If seeking a title through a Bible College is vanity as you say, wouldn't the titles that you have also be vanity?

How is getting an education vanity?



Originally posted by adjensen

And you know what? You can, too! I am hereby establishing the unaccredited "College of Teh Interwebs", and by attesting that you agree with my opinion on all matters theological, I will bestow on you the honorary Doctoral degree from the "College of Teh Interwebs", which you can use to impress your friends and claim credibility in your arguments.


The difference between ATBC and your "school" would be people either do or have done something to earn the degree.

No they don't. They just have to agree with your leader and send him $1,300. They don't have to have done anything at all that would merit such a degree. That's why the Department of Education cautions that diploma mills, such as yours, are worthless.



Originally posted by adjensen

Whether I do or not is completely irrelevant.


No, it is completely relevant. Jesus said to call no man father. Your priest has received a title that he has not earned, due to it being a title for God alone. You are misjudging another person, while your priest is actually guilty of what you judge.

As would be Paul, Peter, anyone who refers to Father Abraham and pretty much everyone in the Bible. Maybe you've the wrong idea.


Jesus criticized Jewish leaders who love "the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues, and salutations in the market places, and being called ‘rabbi’ by men" (Matt. 23:6–7). His admonition here is a response to the Pharisees’ proud hearts and their g.asping after marks of status and prestige.

He was using hyperbole (exaggeration to make a point) to show the scribes and Pharisees how sinful and proud they were for not looking humbly to God as the source of all authority and fatherhood and teaching, and instead setting themselves up as the ultimate authorities, father figures, and teachers.

Christ used hyperbole often, for example when he declared, "If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell" (Matt. 5:29, cf. 18:9; Mark 9:47). Christ certainly did not intend this to be applied literally, for otherwise all Christians would be blind amputees! (cf. 1 John 1:8; 1 Tim. 1:15). We are all subject to "the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the pride of life" (1 John 2:16).

Since Jesus is demonstrably using hyperbole when he says not to call anyone our father—else we would not be able to refer to our earthly fathers as such—we must read his words carefully and with sensitivity to the presence of hyperbole if we wish to understand what he is saying.

Jesus is not forbidding us to call men "fathers" who actually are such—either literally or spiritually. (See below on the apostolic example of spiritual fatherhood.) To refer to such people as fathers is only to acknowledge the truth, and Jesus is not against that. He is warning people against inaccurately attributing fatherhood—or a particular kind or degree of fatherhood—to those who do not have it. (Source)

Hmm... kinda sounds like these two are tied together and you're wrong on both accounts.



Originally posted by adjensen

Now show how celebrating Christmas is sinful.


Show how it is not.

Once again, full circle, now with the added "now prove a negative" irrational demand.

Yes, you have no evidence that I'm sinful for celebrating Christmas, thanks for demonstrating it.




posted on Dec, 26 2012 @ 01:53 PM
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Originally posted by adjensen

Yes, you already posted that. And I already said it's against idolatry and asked you to demonstrate that people worship Christmas trees. Hooray, we've come full circle, and you still haven't said anything.


I have said much to a spiritual blind man.


Originally posted by adjensen

How is getting an education vanity?


I am saying, if seeking an ATBC degree is vanity, so was you seeking your degrees.


Originally posted by adjensen

No they don't. They just have to agree with your leader and send him $1,300. They don't have to have done anything at all that would merit such a degree. That's why the Department of Education cautions that diploma mills, such as yours, are worthless.


That is a lie. Many receive degrees through ATBC by doing course work. The ones who receive honorary degrees, go through an interview to make sure they meet the requirements. ATBC is not a "diploma mill".

It would be nice if you would stop taking threads off topic with your lies.


Originally posted by adjensen

Hmm... kinda sounds like these two are tied together and you're wrong on both accounts.


I am right on both accounts. Father is the catholic version of rabbi.


Originally posted by adjensen

Once again, full circle, now with the added "now prove a negative" irrational demand.

Yes, you have no evidence that I'm sinful for celebrating Christmas, thanks for dem


You have learned the ways of the heathen.
edit on 26-12-2012 by truejew because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 26 2012 @ 02:58 PM
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Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by adjensen

Yes, you already posted that. And I already said it's against idolatry and asked you to demonstrate that people worship Christmas trees. Hooray, we've come full circle, and you still haven't said anything.


I have said much to a spiritual blind man.

No, you haven't said anything, apart from demonstrating that you don't understand what idolatry is.



Originally posted by adjensen

How is getting an education vanity?

I am saying, if seeking an ATBC degree is vanity, so was you seeking your degrees.

No, I got my degrees because I was seeking an education -- your phony Doctoral degrees are for people seeking prestige, the leader even says so on his web page:


Although they may not have achieved secular educational levels to graduate with a degree, they have achieved a great knowledge in the Word of God. These men have chosen to represent the Oneness Doctrine in the face of being called a cult leader, or even railed upon because they rejected the trinity doctrine. ... This deserves honor! (Source)



The ones who receive honorary degrees, go through an interview to make sure they meet the requirements. ATBC is not a "diploma mill".


It most certainly is -- the only "requirements" are $1,300 and claiming to agree with what the leader says in that "interview." I've offered a cheaper alternative with my "College of Teh Interwebs", which has the same credibility as yours. More, if you ask me, because I'm not scrumming for money.


A diploma mill (also known as a degree mill) is an unaccredited higher education institution that offers bogus academic degrees and diplomas for a fee. These degrees may claim to give credit for relevant life experience, but should not be confused with legitimate prior learning assessment programs. (Source)

... that's your guy's program in a nutshell.


It would be nice if you would stop taking threads off topic with your lies.


And it would be nice if you would own up to the fact that Reckart is in the wrong and shouldn't be selling phony degrees. Your credibility in making sweeping statements like "celebrating Christmas is a sin" is called into question when you so obviously dismiss scripture when it's in conflict with your beliefs.



Hmm... kinda sounds like these two are tied together and you're wrong on both accounts.


I am right on both accounts. Father is the catholic version of rabbi.

You're right about Jesus telling people not to get titles because "This deserves honor!"? Better go tell Reckart he's sinning!



posted on Dec, 26 2012 @ 03:05 PM
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The truth about Christmas....

A lot of people on these types of websites should know that Christmas is an invented holiday for socio-political reasons by the Romans.

However, does it really matter? Does really celebrating Christmas really matter?

I'd say, it's completely up to you. Personally, I do not necessarily celebrate the holiday of Christmas on the 25th. On this day, I celebrate other people celebrating. I can not celebrate it is as the birth of Christ because it simply is not.

Is it SUCH a big deal as we are letting it on to? Maybe...



posted on Dec, 26 2012 @ 03:15 PM
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Originally posted by adjensen

It most certainly is -- the only "requirements" are $1,300 and claiming to agree with what the leader says in that "interview."


What proof do you have? Unless you went through the interview, I don't see how you could have any.
edit on 26-12-2012 by truejew because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 26 2012 @ 04:00 PM
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Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by adjensen

It most certainly is -- the only "requirements" are $1,300 and claiming to agree with what the leader says in that "interview."


What proof do you have? Unless you went through the interview, I don't see how you could have any.

Proof of what? Are you saying that agreeing with Reckart isn't a requirement? Or are you saying that yakking with this guy on the phone for a few minutes is the educational equivalent of a three year Doctoral program at an accredited university?

Get a clue. By the very definition of the term, what he's running there is a diploma mill, and he says that the point of it is to give "honor" to people who agree with him, which is against Jesus' teachings. If you weren't utterly brainwashed by him, you'd be able to see that.

As I said, your credibility in general is undercut by your blind following of this charlatan, as well as your rejection of Christ's words when they are in conflict with Reckart's.



posted on Dec, 26 2012 @ 04:10 PM
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Originally posted by adjensen


Proof of what?


Give us proof of what is spoken about in the interview.
edit on 26-12-2012 by truejew because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 26 2012 @ 05:50 PM
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Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by adjensen


Proof of what?


Give us proof of what is spoken about in the interview.


Who cares? Of what possible relevance is that? Go read the definition of a diploma mill again, and then your leader's list of "criteria" on his web site, and explain why he's not running a diploma mill -- an unaccredited "college" that passes out diplomas for "life experience," not on the basis of actually getting an education.

Even if you manage to do that, explain how it's not a matter of arrogance, pride and trying to impress others, which Jesus explicitly said was wrong.



posted on Dec, 26 2012 @ 10:54 PM
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Originally posted by adjensen

Who cares?


Me, hopefully anyone reading, and I believe God would.


Originally posted by adjensen

Of what possible relevance is that?


You need to have proof that Pastor Reckart does not have standards for who he gives diplomas to. Other wise you are falsely accusing a person.

2 Timothy 3:2-8 (KJV)
2For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 6For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, 7Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.

Where is the proof?


Originally posted by adjensen

Go read the definition of a diploma mill again, and then your leader's list of "criteria" on his web site, and explain why he's not running a diploma mill -- an unaccredited "college" that passes out diplomas for "life experience," not on the basis of actually getting an education.



The Higher Education Opportunity Act defines a diploma mill as follows:

DIPLOMA MILL- The term `diploma mill' means an entity that--
(A)(i) offers, for a fee, degrees, diplomas, or certificates, that may be used to represent to the general public that the individual possessing such a degree, diploma, or certificate has completed a program of postsecondary education or training; and (ii) requires such individual to complete little or no education or coursework to obtain such degree, diploma, or certificate; and
(B) lacks accreditation by an accrediting agency or association that is recognized as an accrediting agency or association of institutions of higher education (as such term is defined in section 102) by--
(i) the Secretary pursuant to subpart 2 of part H of title IV; or (ii) a Federal agency, State government, or other organization or association that recognizes accrediting agencies or associations.


Notice that according to section "B", a lot of Christian Bible Colleges may also be "diploma mills". What sets them a part from a diploma mill is the standards that they have in giving out a diploma.


The dictionary defines a diploma mill as:

An institution of higher education operating without supervision of a state or professional agency and granting diplomas which are either fraudulent or because of the lack of proper standards worthless. - Webster's Third New International Dictionary


Notice it says "because of the lack of proper standards". Proper standards is also how well known colleges can also give a honorary degree without being a "diploma mill".


Although many legitimate institutions give academic credit for life and work experiences, beware of institutions that offer college credit and degrees based on life experience, with little or no documentation of prior learning.


All external quotes from Diploma Mills and Accreditation - Diploma Mills

I know Pastor Reckart and he is a man of standards.

Where is your proof.


Originally posted by adjensen

Even if you manage to do that, explain how it's not a matter of arrogance, pride and trying to impress others, which Jesus explicitly said was wrong.


Explain how it would not equally be a matter of arrogance, pride, and trying to impress others for you to have your degrees.



posted on Dec, 27 2012 @ 09:03 AM
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Originally posted by truejew
I know Pastor Reckart and he is a man of standards.

Well, let's have a look at those standards, shall we?


1.) You must be over the age of 40?
2.) You must have been an Apostolic Oneness Minister for over 20 years?
3.) You must have been a Pastor for at least 10 years of the past 20?
4.) You must currently be in the Ministry?
5.) You must obtain testimony from at least three Pastors who will recommend you for a Life Experience Doctorate D.Th Degree?
6.) You must be willing to be interviewed on the telephone by Dr. Reckart?
7.) You must be willing to pay $50 application fee and $1,250.00 three weeks before presentation of the degree.
8.) Must be willing to pay the expense of Dr. Reckart to come and bestow the degree. This includes airfare, motel, and transportation to the venue of presentation.

If you meet the seven qualifying criteria above, then why not accept our offer to recognize your faithfulness? (Source)

#1 - Older than 40? What evidence of education is that?
#2 - Been a minister? Evidence of nothing other than "life experience"
#3 - Been a pastor for ten years? Ditto.
#4 - Currently in the ministry? Of no educational relevance
#5 - Testimony from other cult members? Of no educational relevance
#6 - Approval by the cult leader? Of no educational relevance
#7 - Willing to pay Reckart $1,300 for your degree? Of no educational relevance
#8 (of seven, oopsies, lol) - Willing to pay Reckart for a holiday? Of no educational relevance


Where is your proof.

Listed above -- your guy is running a diploma mill, by the very clear definition of the word. You'll note that I've said nothing about anyone who actually takes classes at this school (if there are such people -- I've done a fair amount of due diligence and can find no evidence that there are actually on-campus students, though there may be,) so your claim that other schools are doing the same thing, simply because they are also unaccredited, is of no merit (and I'd condemn said schools if they were passing out degrees on the basis of Reckart's seven eight criteria listed above.)



Originally posted by adjensen

Even if you manage to do that, explain how it's not a matter of arrogance, pride and trying to impress others, which Jesus explicitly said was wrong.


Explain how it would not equally be a matter of arrogance, pride, and trying to impress others for you to have your degrees.

Nice ad hominem attack, but my degrees are of no relevance to what your buddy is doing.

Look, you've only one life in which to achieve salvation, and you're throwing yours away on this elitist "we're the true church" nonsense that rejects the words of Christ when it serves you. Claiming that you are a "true Jew" when you are neither is arrogant, elitist and an affront to both God and his chosen people. You're obviously brainwashed into ignoring the errors of your leader, which is doubly unfortunate, in that seeing with open eyes is your only hope of finding the truth, which is not what your church teaches.
edit on 27-12-2012 by adjensen because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 27 2012 @ 10:30 AM
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reply to post by adjensen
 


It is now clear to me that your attacks against this man is based on hate, not proof. You hate him because he teaches truth and you have no defense against the truth so you find something to falsely accuse him of. Kind of how the Pharisees falsely accused Jesus. I suggest to you to repent before your hate leads to your self destruction.

The following describes you perfectly:

2 Timothy 3:2-8 (KJV)
2For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 6For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, 7Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.



posted on Dec, 27 2012 @ 10:47 AM
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Originally posted by truejew
reply to post by adjensen
 


It is now clear to me that your attacks against this man is based on hate, not proof.


Again with the ad hominem attacks... no, I do not hate Reckart. I certainly don't respect him, and I wouldn't trust him, but that is the result of reviewing his teaching and your representation of it. By his own words, he is running a diploma mill, solely to boost the egos and credentials of those who agree with him, contrary to Christ's teaching. The fact that you have no reasonable counter to that charge should be indication enough that he's in the wrong.

As for whether his actual teachings, apart from this bit of dishonesty, there is absolutely nothing which supports his or your claims that the "Oneness theology" holds any merit. As we have discussed in other threads, the only way that it works is to intentionally misrepresent the Bible, to presume that God is so impotent that he allowed his plan for mankind to be derailed almost immediately following the resurrection, only to be re-discovered by someone 2,000 years later and the base salvation on, not faith in Christ, but in the acceptance of doctrine.

You're welcome to believe that, of course. But when you make silly statements like "the Bible says you can't have a Christmas tree" because something written centuries before Christ admonishes against idolatry, or you defend the dishonest practices of those you follow, don't be surprised when no one chooses to agree.



posted on Dec, 27 2012 @ 11:01 AM
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Originally posted by adjensen
reply to post by adjensen
 


The fact that you have no reasonable counter to that charge should be indication enough that he's in the wrong.


I asked you to provide proof that Pastor Reckart is giving diplomas without standards as you charge and you have provided none.



posted on Dec, 27 2012 @ 11:06 AM
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Originally posted by truejew
I asked you to provide proof that Pastor Reckart is giving diplomas without standards as you charge and you have provided none.


Can't you read? I gave you the definition of a diploma mill as being the passing out of diplomas based, not on education, but on "life experience" and then demonstrated in this post that Reckart's "standards" are not educational, but rather monetary and "life experience."

End of discussion -- the proof is in Reckart's very own words.



posted on Dec, 27 2012 @ 11:34 AM
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Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by truejew
I asked you to provide proof that Pastor Reckart is giving diplomas without standards as you charge and you have provided none.


Can't you read? I gave you the definition of a diploma mill as being the passing out of diplomas based, not on education, but on "life experience" and then demonstrated in this post that Reckart's "standards" are not educational, but rather monetary and "life experience."

End of discussion -- the proof is in Reckart's very own words.




Although many legitimate institutions give academic credit for life and work experiences, beware of institutions that offer college credit and degrees based on life experience, with little or no documentation of prior learning.


From Diploma Mills and Accreditation - Diploma Mills



posted on Dec, 27 2012 @ 12:01 PM
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reply to post by truejew
 


Geez, did you even read that? It says exactly what I said.

If you speak German and go to an American university, they will likely give you course credit for a few German language courses because you can speak German. They will NOT give you a diploma in German Studies because you can speak German, or for any reason, apart from taking the required coursework.

What you posted is 100% in support of me and 100% against Reckart and his phony diplomas.



posted on Dec, 27 2012 @ 12:10 PM
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Originally posted by adjensen
reply to post by truejew
 


Geez, did you even read that? It says exactly what I said.

If you speak German and go to an American university, they will likely give you course credit for a few German language courses because you can speak German. They will NOT give you a diploma in German Studies because you can speak German, or for any reason, apart from taking the required coursework.

What you posted is 100% in support of me and 100% against Reckart and his phony diplomas.


It says, "many legitimate institutions give academic credit for life and work experiences". That is what it appears that Pastor Reckart is doing. I see no proof of a diploma mill.



posted on Dec, 27 2012 @ 12:52 PM
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Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by adjensen
reply to post by truejew
 


Geez, did you even read that? It says exactly what I said.

If you speak German and go to an American university, they will likely give you course credit for a few German language courses because you can speak German. They will NOT give you a diploma in German Studies because you can speak German, or for any reason, apart from taking the required coursework.

What you posted is 100% in support of me and 100% against Reckart and his phony diplomas.


It says, "many legitimate institutions give academic credit for life and work experiences". That is what it appears that Pastor Reckart is doing. I see no proof of a diploma mill.

Have you ever been to university? I don't mean that as an insult, I mean that you don't seem to understand what "academic credit" and "college diploma" mean, and why they are different.

Even so, the very next line of what you posted describes what Reckart is doing:


beware of institutions that offer college credit and degrees based on life experience

Get that? "Beware of... degrees based on life experience." That's what he's doing, not "giving academic credit for life and work experience."

He's not giving you a few credits towards a degree at his supposed college, which would be fine, he's giving you a PhD in theology because you were a pastor for ten years, which is wrong. That is a diploma mill, even by the definition that YOU posted.



posted on Dec, 27 2012 @ 01:16 PM
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Originally posted by adjensen
reply to post by truejew
 


Get that? "Beware of... degrees based on life experience." That's what he's doing, not "giving academic credit for life and work experience."


It says "beware of", not that all schools that give degrees based upon life experience are diploma mills. In other words it is a sign of a diploma mill, not proof of a diploma mill. A person must have the experience of being a Pastor for 10 years. Do you understand the amount of study that goes into being a Pastor, both before and During?



posted on Dec, 27 2012 @ 01:38 PM
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Originally posted by truejew
It says "beware of", not that all schools that give degrees based upon life experience are diploma mills. In other words it is a sign of a diploma mill, not proof of a diploma mill.

Yes, it is, because one of the criteria that defines a diploma mill is granting degrees on a non-educational basis. Period. There's no "oh, but it's more sincere" exception granted to an objective judgement.


A person must have the experience of being a Pastor for 10 years. Do you understand the amount of study that goes into being a Pastor, both before and During?

Yes, I am aware of the effort that some (not all) put forth, and they are granted a title for it -- that of Pastor. They do not deserve the title of Doctor of Theology, because they did not do the work required to receive a Doctorate Degree in theology, and to say that they did is dishonest.





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