Guns and freedom

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posted on Dec, 24 2012 @ 08:36 PM
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Hi all.

First of all, I need to make one thing clear. I do not mean to attack or critizise anything or anyone. This topic is for me to learn and hopefully understand.

Ive read many threads in here regardig guns lately, and one of the main arguments used is that guns equals freedom for many people. Nothing seems to enrage people of both camps as much a gundebate.

The thing I dont understand is what kind of freedom does owning a gun give you?
What freedom does the americans have that the average european dont?

I dont want to make this a gun or no gun debate, I just wanna understand the arguments.

Personally I have nothing against guns. I like shooting. But I do not own a gun myself.

Im fron Norway, a country with quite strict gunlaws. But still with a quite high gun density, ranked nr 4 worldwide if Im not mistaken.




posted on Dec, 24 2012 @ 08:42 PM
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Oh no. Now you've done it. Just when the debates had quieted down....

edit on 12/24/2012 by Ex_CT2 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 24 2012 @ 08:47 PM
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I dont wanna debate guns actually.
I just wanna know what kind of freedom they provide, both personally and for the society.



posted on Dec, 24 2012 @ 08:51 PM
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reply to post by Gromle
 
There are many times when a Government (Tyrannical Leadership but not known at the time) where the Government took Guns away from there People than proceeded to Murder them and implement there Tyrannical Government.

Look it up. I am not going to provide you the information as I believe most people need to learn for themselves. There is a reason the 2nd amendment exists.

I think the debate could be whether Assault Rifles, extended magazines, etc. should be allowed but still sometimes you need to give up something to be truly FREE. Our Original Forefathers had many reasons for the 2nd Amendment and there are many quotes out there to see there intentions.



posted on Dec, 24 2012 @ 09:14 PM
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Ive read about the 2. amandment and the right to carry guns. I just wondered if there was anything else that would fall under the freedomargument. Something more everydayish...

So if I understand correctly, the freedompart is simply put the possibility to overthrow the government?



posted on Dec, 24 2012 @ 09:27 PM
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Its a sense of personal freedom with your immediate space around you.

I live in nyc and I never feel the need to be armed.
However, I grew up in the country and I can not imagine not having guns while living there.

I would genuinely feel unsafe without my own guns living anywhere out in "the country".

Its something inherently American and probably hard to imagine if you are not.



posted on Dec, 24 2012 @ 09:48 PM
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Originally posted by Gromle
Hi all.

First of all, I need to make one thing clear. I do not mean to attack or critizise anything or anyone. This topic is for me to learn and hopefully understand.

Ive read many threads in here regardig guns lately, and one of the main arguments used is that guns equals freedom for many people. Nothing seems to enrage people of both camps as much a gundebate.

The thing I dont understand is what kind of freedom does owning a gun give you?
What freedom does the americans have that the average european dont?

I dont want to make this a gun or no gun debate, I just wanna understand the arguments.

Personally I have nothing against guns. I like shooting. But I do not own a gun myself.

Im fron Norway, a country with quite strict gunlaws. But still with a quite high gun density, ranked nr 4 worldwide if Im not mistaken.


i dont think it makes us more free than anyone..

it makes us believe we can protect our freedoms..whether we can or not is another story

but were gonna try



posted on Dec, 24 2012 @ 09:54 PM
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reply to post by Gromle
 





The thing I dont understand is what kind of freedom does owning a gun give you?
What freedom does the americans have that the average european dont?


It gives us protection against domestic enemies/tyranny... Every Government that murdered masses of it own citizens in the last century first disarmed them! People who have no fear of their government turning on them are fools and ignorant of history.

They also provide personal protection from criminals that other countries like Britain do not have. Armed citizens in America stop more crime then "ALL" law enforcement agencies in the entire country combined.

edit on 24-12-2012 by hawkiye because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 24 2012 @ 09:55 PM
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For me it is the freedom to protect my family and myself with deadly force if necessary.

Here in Florida we have a castle doctrine which legally allows me to do just that.



posted on Dec, 24 2012 @ 09:58 PM
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reply to post by Gromle
 
LOL...that is an everyday issue in our World. Tyrannical Governments and unarmed People. Now, if the US did get there guns taken away, and say China was the new SuperPower you can be guaranteed they would supply the people to overpower this Government.

The real arms race happens in Wars where a People rise up and either Russia or the US supply them to overthrow that Government. Now, when China starts producing weapons in this capacity they soon will be the Arms dealers.

This is much bigger than the 2nd amendment but the reason it is most important in the US is try and march an Army through Oakland or South Central LA. LOL!!!!

Thats not even counting NY or the Carolinas. Try and have an Army go against our Militia in Michigan. LOL!!!

If you disarm then it would be a cakewalk.



posted on Dec, 24 2012 @ 10:05 PM
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Get ready for the usual lies..


Guns make us safe...umm fear is not freedom.

Without guns the government would do what it wants..ummm it still does what it wants..


We may need to defend our country...ummm with the tech that modern military has...no chance in hell..


Without guns criminals would be only ones with guns..ummm guess where those guns are coming from...stolen from American gun owners.

Firearms Stolen during Household Burglaries and Other Property Crimes, 2005-2010




About 1.4 million guns, or an annual average of 232,400, were stolen during burglaries and other property crimes in the six-year period from 2005 through 2010.
On average, firearms were stolen in an annual average of about 4% of the 2.4 million burglaries occurring each year, in 2% of the 529,200 robberies, and in less than 1% of the 13.6 million other crimes involving theft from 2005 through 2010.
From 2005 through 2010, 86% of burglaries and 75% of other property crimes involving a stolen firearm were reported to police.


Other countries with gun restrictions are over run by criminals...umm not true..look at Canada

Can't think of the other lies.

Oh yeah..in response to this..gun advocates will post one single incident to attempt to prove me wrong. Leaving out that it is rare..
edit on 24-12-2012 by kerazeesicko because: I CAN



posted on Dec, 24 2012 @ 10:12 PM
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Originally posted by kerazeesicko
Get ready for the usual lies..


Guns make us safe...umm fear is not freedom.

Without guns the government would do what it wants..ummm it still does what it wants..


We may need to defend our country...ummm with the tech that modern military has...no chance in hell..


Without guns criminals would be only ones with guns..ummm guess where those guns are coming from...stolen from American gun owners.

Firearms Stolen during Household Burglaries and Other Property Crimes, 2005-2010




About 1.4 million guns, or an annual average of 232,400, were stolen during burglaries and other property crimes in the six-year period from 2005 through 2010.
On average, firearms were stolen in an annual average of about 4% of the 2.4 million burglaries occurring each year, in 2% of the 529,200 robberies, and in less than 1% of the 13.6 million other crimes involving theft from 2005 through 2010.
From 2005 through 2010, 86% of burglaries and 75% of other property crimes involving a stolen firearm were reported to police.


Other countries with gun restrictions are over run by criminals...umm not true..look at Canada

Can't think of the other lies.

Oh yeah..it response to this..gun advocates will post one single incident to attempt to prove me wrong. Leaving out that it is rare..


Yep agree everything in the above post is lies. At least he tells you right up front that he is going to lie to you...



posted on Dec, 24 2012 @ 10:59 PM
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Originally posted by Gromle
The thing I dont understand is what kind of freedom does owning a gun give you?
What freedom does the americans have that the average european dont?


It is not so much a direct connection between guns and freedom. It’s more of an indirect connection.

One of the basic tenets of a free person is the right to defend themselves. If you do not have the right to defend yourself, and your life, then your life is meaningless because someone else who has authority, could deprive you of your life any time they want. The right to defend your life means you can be safe in your own existence, no mater who may want you gone. Be that the government, the criminals, and any other highly powerful person or group.

The constitution lays out the rights that are self evident. A person or state that is deprived of all weapons is defenseless. Someone who is defenseless is at the mercy of other people that have weapons. Without the ability to defend yourself, you have no freedom.

A free person has the right to bear weapons to protect themselves, their family, and friends.

The weapons/arms that the person shale have the right to bear is not stipulated. That is because they include all weapons that a person may use to effect in his own defense, or the defense of others. That includes knives, clubs, chemical, arrows, or guns.

Weapons that are considered “personal” weapons, are the weapons that the 2nd amendment is most designed to protect. One of the most effective personal weapons of the modern world is a GUN! It trumps all other personal weapons. And when someone comes at you with a gun, the only thing that you can reasonably use to combat him, is your own gun.

So, the gun holds a special place in that continuum. If you are not allowed to use a gun to defend yourself, then you basically have no defense because the person that tried to deprive you of your life will probably be using a gun. And in that situation, you have no defense, so you have been deprived of your right to self defense.

Other larger arms and weapons systems do not fall under the 2nd because they are to wide in effect to be used against a person attacking you, or a group of people attacking you. You would no longer be defending yourself, you would be launching an indiscriminate attack on innocent bystanders.

That is why mace should be protected by the 2nd, but nerve gas should not.
That is why semi autos should be protected, but full autos are kind of outside that bound. Fully automatic weapons are generally used to indiscriminately spray bullets at everyone, while semi autos are the most effective for laying aimed fire on an enemy.

It all depends on what threat a person may find themselves presented with, in day to day life.

If criminals start using armored tanks to rob people, then RPGs may be a perfectly applicable weapon under the 2nd . Until that time comes, not so much

And the weapons protected, will change with time. If a new, more powerful, personal weapon is invented that can be used to defend yourself. Then it’s possession by people should be reasonably expected to be protected under the 2nd. That is why they used the ambiguous term “arms” instead of stating what individual items are protected. Because what people classify as “arms” will change with time.

Right now, Guns just happen to be the top of the list.



posted on Dec, 25 2012 @ 02:06 AM
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After reading it a little while after posting it, it didn’t come out quite as clear as I intended. So I will clarify.

The right to use to defend yourself comes from the first amendment for the most part. The right to life. If you have a right to life, then you have a right to defend that life from someone that may want to deprive you of that life.

The second amendment expounds on that. Remember, I stated you have a right to defend yourself, your family, and friends. The first amendment covers your right to defend yourself, the second covers your right to defend your family, friends, and others.

“A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state,”
Keeping all able bodied citizens “the militia” well supplied and armed is a required to give them the ability to protect themselves, their family, their friends, and their fellow citizens from crime, despotism, and tyranny.

“the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.”
Thusly, the people have a right to keep and bear the arms that are needed to protect, their friends, family, and fellow citizens.

The first amendment covers your right to protect yourself, the second amendment covers your right to protect your fellow citizen. Your right to keep and bear weapons to defend your fellow citizen, also carries over to your right to protect yourself. How can you defend yourself if you have no weapons to defend yourself?

If the right to bear arms is necessary to allow you to defend your country, then by default, they are also necessary for you to defend yourself. To defend your right to life.

That is why I see the right to keep and bear arms in defense of yourself to be covered by the first and second amendment.
edit on 25-12-2012 by Mr Tranny because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 25 2012 @ 05:58 AM
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"You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass."

--Isoroku Yamamoto, Commander-In-Chief, Imperial Japanese Navy, WWII



posted on Dec, 25 2012 @ 05:20 PM
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Originally posted by Gromle
I dont wanna debate guns actually.
I just wanna know what kind of freedom they provide, both personally and for the society.

Guns provide freedom from tyranny, quite simple as that.
Ask any european that was rounded up and put on a train.
Ask anyone who was marched out into a field with their neighbors just because they were the wrong religion, color, or political affiliation.
Certain things cannot happen to me without a MAJOR wrench being thrown into the gears.



posted on Dec, 25 2012 @ 05:35 PM
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You simply are trolling for trouble as you can EASILY type into google: America, Freedom, and 2nd Amendment and get your answer. You can also read the MILLIONS of recent postings here on ATS in regards to it.

But I see you are from outside of America, and like all the rest of them nosy bitterly angry folks, with no lives, you are only trolling for trouble obviously.

But as always, you will LOSE against Americans if you debate this topic by the way... we take it VERY SERIOUSLY...

...and WE ARENT GIVING UP OUR FREEDOMS no matter what you Non-Americans wish for or do.

Google.com. Give it a try, instead trolling for trouble.



What freedom does the americans have that the average european dont?


REALLY?????????? Are you SERIOUS?? Google has LOTS on that topic as well.

Trolling for trouble. Immature.


Must really suck to live somewhere that you dont have a life, nor any rights or freedoms either. Sad.

edit on 25-12-2012 by oper8zhin because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 25 2012 @ 07:44 PM
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Originally posted by oper8zhin

Must really suck to live somewhere that you dont have a life, nor any rights or freedoms either. Sad.

edit on 25-12-2012 by oper8zhin because: (no reason given)


Really living in fear of being killed if you don't have a gun is freedom?

Owning a gun means you don't have a life...?

All civilized countries have rights and freedoms...



I believe that not living in fear and able to walk around without being armed is a much better life than you will ever enjoy..


But keep telling yourself you are free...


Your post equals FAIL..and also your attempt at trolling is sad..
edit on 25-12-2012 by kerazeesicko because: I CAN



posted on Dec, 26 2012 @ 08:07 AM
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reply to post by Gromle
 





The thing I dont understand is what kind of freedom does owning a gun give you?

Gives us freedom to protect ourselves from criminals, oppressed governments and invading armies. Not much else to say.



posted on Dec, 26 2012 @ 07:12 PM
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reply to post by Gromle
 


Good question. Here's one way I look at it:
Simply put, there are two ways to persuade people: reason and force. If one person has a monopoly on force, they can simply tell everyone else to do without fear of retribution. The people without a means of defending themselves have no choice: they must do whatever the person with a monopoly on force demands.
On the other hand, if there is no monopoly on force, people do have a choice. I can't just go up to you and shove a gun in your face and tell you to do whatever I want you to. You have the ability to exercise your free choice without fear of negative consequences (like getting shot.)
Guns promote freedom because they prevent any one person or party from gaining a monopoly on force.
Hope this is a good answer





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