You Are Delusional...........

reply to post by denver22


Prove that you exist

reply to post by BrokenAngelWings33


Technically he's right, even though his attitude stinks.

You're starting with a presumption that raw numbers = earth 2.0 with absolute assurance, but there's no proof that the HIGHLY unique and special earth-moon-sun relationship has occurred anywhere else, and it's likelihood of repeating in an almost identical manner (which is what would be required for this type of life to exist), in our galaxy alone would be highly IMprobable, unless one were to adopt the position of super-intelligent design ie: blueprint of a creator - then it's a different story, and I do believe that that's what the evidence points to, right here of all places.

Puts the atheist into a rather unique predicament I realize, as it does the strictly literalist conservative fundamentalist Christian who imho is equally ignorant of the possibilities, and so once again it would appear that God is not without a sense of humor and irony..

Originally posted by godlover25
reply to post by BrokenAngelWings33

 

I find it somewhat strange that you have an easy time believing in something that you just assume exists with nothing else to go on but your own conjectures, as opposed to something that's been well attested to for multiple millennium and embraced by billions...

Without any proof.

Originally posted by BrokenAngelWings33
It is a mathematical certainty,...I guarantee that without proof.

Lady listen to what you are saying just listen you cannot guarantee that

reply to post by BrokenAngelWings33


Prove that you exist

Originally posted by BrokenAngelWings33

Originally posted by Soylent Green Is People

Originally posted by BrokenAngelWings33
If you want to limit life as we exist how do you know this exact situation hasn't occurred many times in our own galaxy, because you require proof?

Most of us are not trying to limit the idea of the existence of intelligent aliens, we are just saying it is not a mathematical certainty the intelligent ETs exist until we actually encounter these intelligent ETs

I believe they exist -- at least I'm 99.999999% sure they do. However, I won't be 100% sure until we encounter them.

Well I see...so your hung up on a percentage...You still didn't answer my question, aside from this, do you believe anything is 100% true without proof? Who is to say we have not encountered them many times where is the proof they do not exist? It is a mathematical certainty, the uncertainty is how many planets have life...even if it was .0001% of the existing galaxies that we have in this picture it would be more than one...I guarantee that without proof.

I believe a lot of things. However, just because I believe them does not mean I am infallible -- nor does it mean that everything I believe is 100% fact.

Like I said -- I am more open minded than that. I think it is possible that things I believe to be true are not. I think life does exist elsewhere, but I am open minded enough to admit that I could be wrong, and we may find that we are alone in the universe.

Do I think that is likely? Not at all; I don't think it is even remotely likely that we are alone. I feel it is almost a certain fact that the universe is too big for there to be no other life. However, the possibility -- no mater how astronomically low that possibility is -- still exists that we are alone.

That possibility exists no matter what I personally feel about the subject. I can't close my mind to the possibility that we are alone just because I don't personally believe it to be at all likely.

I am not the one who insisted on proof, the argument was made that there is no way for me to be certain we are alone in the Universe because I do not have quantifiable proof to back up my assertion....I say to all of you out there...thank you for all your replies...IF you believe in anything PERIOD without proof is 100% correct...then you cannot tell me I need proof. So, any history books, any religious beliefs, any mathematical formulas that you believe are FACT without proof are just making my case stronger. You do not need proof to believe something is 100% correct. If you require proof then you are a hypocrite and in denial. It is really very simple. You cannot argue We Are Not Alone, if you believe anything at all without proof.

Originally posted by BrokenAngelWings33



I am not silly...you are

I am quite clear in my approach to this while you on the other hand seem intent to force me to believe you are the smartest person on the planet, sorry, that distinction goes to Phage in ATS...that being said...I do not require proof to believe 100% that we are not alone. If you continue to be ignorant that is your choice. DENY DENY DENY all you want.

I quote and you said you gurantee intelligent life exists and require no proof where is the logic in that
and for you're infomation ive stood side by side with phage and the top others in denying ignorance
regarding certain things.But that's a little off topic, also i don't claim to be the smartest person and
have never said so, but what i will say is no one, i mean no one can gurantee intelligent life without
proofnot you nor i not anyone untill the said proof is required and obtained that life is there on other
planets..

It's like saying the tooth fairy exists why because you said so all without a shred of proof for
your arguments ...If anyone dissagrees with you having no proof to show you claim we are the
deniers.Well ill carry on denying ignorance, you just carry on believing ... it's your right..
But to state as a fact that intelligent life exists on other planets without the proof to back it up
then it makes you sound insane

Originally posted by Soylent Green Is People
Do I think that is likely? Not at all; I don't think it is even remotely likely. I feel it is almost a certain fact that the universe is too big for there to be no other life. However, the possibility -- no mater how astronomically low that possibility is -- still exists that we are alone.

Once you dig into it and come to realize how astonishing and how much of an astronomical coincidence would be required (absent intelligent design) to set up our very unique earth-moon-sun relationship, which is what makes life as we experience it, possible, then your appreciation of astronomical probability will be more in alignment with reality.

It's narrow minded and excludes a huge amount of relevant data to say simply that because there's life here and so many stars, that we're not alone and that life not unlike that here on earth exists on other worlds.

I used to think that and thought I was being really smart, until I realized how ignorant it actually is regarding how utterly extraordinary our unique cosmological configuration really is. However I've arrived at the conclusion that it's by intelligent design and therefore, it is more than probable, since life appears to be the very purpose and reason for creation, but from that POV then again we're talking about an intelligent creative process and not just random coincidence. If no God and randomness, then it could very well be possible that what we experience here is entirely unique, doesn't mean there isn't life out there, just not like we get to enjoy here where the apex of a long cosmological evolutionary process has manifested itself with the utmost precision and perfection.

reply to post by BrokenAngelWings33

You'r being just as pig-headed as he is in his protestations.

For God's sake people, it's ok to be wrong sometimes..!

I'm outta here, wanted to make a valuable contribution but this thread kinda sucks.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


Do i believe life intelligent life exists out there, yes.. i strongly believe it.However for me to
say it does and that it exists for 'sure' then i we require 'proof' that's fair i think to say..

I get the op saying 'she' doesn't personally require it however she has also thrown it out
there that life exists as a fact without the 'proof' as yet.That we are somehow in denial
when we us i are not in denial in the notion that life can indeed exist intelligent life
to begin with..

OP we beileve like you, however we- i -us cannot begin to claim it as a fact when we i you us
have not yet had contact with the said intelligent life you claim as fact to be out there..

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
Once you dig into it and come to realize how astonishing and how much of an astronomical coincidence would be required (absent intelligent design) to set up our very unique earth-moon-sun relationship, which is what makes life as we experience it, possible, then your appreciation of astronomical probability will be more in alignment with reality....

Yeah -- but life as we experience it is not necessarily the only life out there.

It may be true that a lot of things had to be "just right" in order to get us humans to develop here on Earth. However, if one of those things didn't happen (i.e., the conditions were a little different) and the human branch of evolution never occurred, then perhaps some other intelligent creature would be calling Earth home...

...Perhaps it would be highly intelligent octopus-like creatures that evolved on Earth, because the conditions were "just right" for their evolution -- even if it wasn't right for human evolution. Those intelligent octopi would be saying that they would not have evolved intelligence if the conditions were different (even if the conditions were just like we humans have today).

Perhaps on some other planet -- a planet with much different gravity and much different day-night cycles, and much higher cosmic radiation -- a life evolved that works perfectly for that planet, and they would be saying "We would not have developed intelligence if our planet's conditions were different".

reply to post by Soylent Green Is People

I get what you're saying, but without the influence of our giant moon, there wouldn't even be liquid water across the entire face of the planet, nor the cycle of life as we experience it, whether on the land or in the oceans.

If we find another rocky water world in our own galaxy, then I would immediately change my tune.

And soon we'll have the means by which to do that as a result of a GIANT radio telescope array being built in Africa with some dishes to be situated in Australia, creating an "eye" on the universe almost as large as the entire sphere of the earth itself.

It will be capable of detecting the biological-molecular signature of exo-planet atmospheres in our own galaxy with high precision.

So we're likely to have a much better idea within the next 10-20 years as this radio telescope array will be completed by around 2020.

Aside from CERN, this is the greatest scientific project ever undertaken in human history. I should create a thread on it.

I have absolutely zero doubt that life has existed or does exist elsewhere in this incomprehensibly immense universe, in some form. And I have very little doubt that, should our species continue to survive for millenia to come, barring some existential threat from within or without, we will, in time, master interplanetary and even interstellar travel and expand beyond this world.

That I must therefore conclude that life elsewhere has definitely developed to intelligence as we know it, mastered interstellar travel, managed to find Earth and its population of fellow intelligent beings in a sea of possible directions and worlds, that it thinks, learns, communicates, developed, feels, and acts enough like us that we can necessarily have any form of kinship or mutual understanding beyond the most rudimentary of gestures with them, and that they thus fly disc shaped craft through our skies and routinely abduct our citizens while purporting to be here variously to save us, save our world, crossbreed with us, master us, enlighten us, or terrorize us depending upon the account... is not logical.

It is, however, logical for me to consider the possibility while awaiting proof of it. In so doing I have reasonably concluded that there are a significant percentage (though not a majority) of UFO sightings corroborated by multiple competent observers as well as physical evidence such as radar, which strongly indicate compelling evidence of intelligent control, and capabilities which we do not - at least publicly - posses, and almost certainly did not posses even secretly at the time of some of these sightings.

I cannot conclude automatically on that basis that they are thus controlled by extraterrestrial visitors, however. There are other possible explanations which have yet to be ruled out. It would not be logical to make that assumption without proof.

Am I delusional, or just skeptical?

Peace.

Originally posted by denver22
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

Do i believe life intelligent life exists out there, yes.. i strongly believe it.However for me to
say it does and that it exists for 'sure' then i we require 'proof' that's fair i think to say..

I get the op saying 'she' doesn't personally require it however she has also thrown it out
there that life exists as a fact without the 'proof' as yet.That we are somehow in denial
when we us i are not in denial in the notion that life can indeed exist intelligent life
to begin with..

OP we beileve like you, however we- i -us cannot begin to claim it as a fact when we i you us
have not yet had contact with the said intelligent life you claim as fact to be out there..

I get it. You are saying there is a possibility but that I have no business declaring it to be guaranteed. OKAY, I will agree there is the slightest possibility that I am wrong.

I have to admit that I'm not to enamored with the provocative title of this thread. Is it not "delusional" to proclaim something as absolute fact that is in truth still as yet within the domain of an unknown?

There's a fatal flaw in the argument put forward in the OP based on an absence of data except the magnitude of combined stars and planets ie: which doesn't take into consideration the astronomical "coincidence" of the earth-moon-sun relationship responsible for life here on earth. Then again, if it's by intelligent design, then it would be absurd to think that the creator made everything just in order so that life might evolve as it has here on one lone planet in the midst of an almost infinite number of them.

Absent an intelligent creator however, as per the atheists position ie: that it's just coincidence, then the probability of it having occurred as it has here diminishes exponentially. Gee I'll have to do a thread on this, because the irony of the atheist's predicament in this regard, is too much for me to resist.

Deny ignorance.

Originally posted by godlover25
reply to post by Bone75

 

A God particle?

Yes, that tiny little mass giving, life giving, atomic decision maker that has eluded scientists for the last 50 years... you're standing on it.

Just because you have a drop of the ocean in a bottle, doesn't mean you have THE Ocean in a bottle, understand?

The Higgs Field and the Higgs Boson particle are 2 different things.

reply to post by BrokenAngelWings33

Could you please explain in some detail the basis upon which you presume to be right, that would be helpful, if you were to explain why anyone who doesn't agree with you must be "delusional" (do i sense a little prejudice there on your part?).

I've pointed out the astronomical "coincidence" factor in regards to the unique configuration that has given rise to life on earth, if a mere coincidence that is.

Please enlighten us, that we might not be deluded any more, thank you.

I've seen a lot of people on here saying "crunch the numbers," but I haven't been convinced that the numbers support the idea of intelligent life "out there."
-From an evolutionary perspective, the "chances" that inanimate matter would evolve into animate matter are virtually nil, as far as I understand it. I actually did a paper on this once, and one of the sources I used was this paper by David Spiegel and Edwin Turner, in which they argue that

Although terrestrial life's early emergence provides evidence that life might be common in the Universe if early-Earth-like conditions are, the evidence is inconclusive and indeed is consistent with an arbitrarily low intrinsic probability of abiogenesis for plausible uninformative priors.

-From a religious perspective, it's entirely up to the individual, but I don't think I know of any large religion that definitely states that there is other life in the universe.
In conclusion, I think saying people are delusional for not believing that life exists outside of earth is kind of silly (no offense.) We simply have not observed life on other planets. The math is inconclusive at best, because we are the only inhabited planet, and negative at worst, because (from what I understand) the chances of abiogenesis is about zero, and the fact that life arose here was either a miracle of a Divine nature or a miracle of mathematics.

Originally posted by michael1983l
reply to post by BrokenAngelWings33

 

I think it is widely accepted that it is an almost mathematical certainty that there is other life out there. I think most scientists would agree with that. It is only the religious nuts that think otherwise.

And which religion would it be that thinks we are alone in the universe?