Many souls released from Purgatory on Christmas, pray AND on a commercial flight, Mother Teresa spea

Originally posted by colbe

Originally posted by zedVSzardoz
reply to post by colbe

 

purgatory was invented by Catholic authorities so rich people could buy the absolution of sins and avoid it. It also made the average Catholic nervous about it and so dedicate himself more fervently to the church, even though he wasnt committing any sins by the churches standards.

edit on 24-12-2012 by zedVSzardoz because: (no reason given)

zed, hi,

How can you believe there is no atonement for lessor sins and actions in our lives? Yes there is....

And look at the OT, the Jewish people believed in a place of purgation.



2 Machabees 12:46
It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.

In the OT Jesus had not come to cleans them of sin. So it can be said what they are praying for is the Messiah who will be an atonement for all sin.

Why won't you comment on what the Pope said about Purgatory?

Originally posted by OccamsRazor04
reply to post by colbe

 

How can you pray for souls in a place the Pope says does not exist, and the Pope says there are no souls there? I am not trying to be difficult, I have posted what the Pope has stated in his own words, and you refuse to talk about it.

edit on 24-12-2012 by OccamsRazor04 because: (no reason given)

Why, you question the authority of the Pope while you accepted the Canon decided by a Pope in 382, Pope
Damasus. The Bible is Catholic. How did this happen, inerrant Scripture was decided by an errant Pope?

Seeee,,,,

The Pope never said Purgatory does not exist. Purgatory is in a realm not the same as we are in or might understand, like God being outside of time. You accept this Truth even though you can understand it on a human level.

Originally posted by colbe

Originally posted by OccamsRazor04
reply to post by colbe

 

How can you pray for souls in a place the Pope says does not exist, and the Pope says there are no souls there? I am not trying to be difficult, I have posted what the Pope has stated in his own words, and you refuse to talk about it.

edit on 24-12-2012 by OccamsRazor04 because: (no reason given)

Why, you question the authority of the Pope while you accepted the Canon decided by a Pope in 382, Pope
Damasus. The Bible is Catholic. How did this happen, inerrant Scripture was decided by an errant Pope?

Seeee,,,,

The Pope never said Purgatory does not exist. Purgatory is in a realm not the same as we are in or might understand, like God being outside of time. You accept this Truth even though you can understand it on a human level.

The Pope said that Purgatory is a process that takes place on Earth, and is not a place itself. I sent you his words and a link to his speech. I am not questioning the authority of the Pope. I am telling you what he said, technically it's you who disagree with him not me.

Originally posted by OccamsRazor04

Originally posted by colbe

Originally posted by zedVSzardoz
reply to post by colbe

 

purgatory was invented by Catholic authorities so rich people could buy the absolution of sins and avoid it. It also made the average Catholic nervous about it and so dedicate himself more fervently to the church, even though he wasnt committing any sins by the churches standards.

edit on 24-12-2012 by zedVSzardoz because: (no reason given)

zed, hi,

How can you believe there is no atonement for lessor sins and actions in our lives? Yes there is....

And look at the OT, the Jewish people believed in a place of purgation.



2 Machabees 12:46
It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.

In the OT Jesus had not come to cleans them of sin. So it can be said what they are praying for is the Messiah who will be an atonement for all sin.

Why won't you comment on what the Pope said about Purgatory?

edit on 24-12-2012 by OccamsRazor04 because: (no reason given)

There's your heresy, another heresy stemming from Martin Luther's Faith Alone heresy. Redemption and justification are not the same. Jesus redeemed mankind, He didn't justify you or as some believe, IMPUTE His perfect righteousness to you a sinner by His death on the Cross.

Justification is life long.,,,what does the Bible say...persevering till the end. The lie of Jesus did it all on the
Cross, you are saved is the "Imputation" or "double Imputation" heresy.

reply to post by colbe


HI,

In the Jewish faith as I have come to understand it, along with the Cabala, the person at the grave is praying to one form of many of the deceased´s soul. The physical soul that remains with the body is connected to the other part of the soul that is in "heaven" and also yet another form of the soul directly as one with God. They do so to communicate with God, and to reaffirm the harmony of all.


EDIT:
Sin in the Jewish faith does not fall into our concept of atonement like a crime and punishment system. Sin is seen in this context as a disconnection from God, and the addressing of it is not atonement but establishing harmony with God once again.

The various consequences for sin then are not in response to it, but as a deterrent. Once sin is committed the main focus is in returning to your natural state in harmony with God. The act of penitence is not to feel sorry and receive punishment, it is to trek back to your state before committing it.

reply to post by colbe


I could refute that, but I would rather do that in a topic related to it. How about we stick with Purgatory, and we deal with the Pope saying Purgatory is a process that happens on Earth, Purgatory is not a place, there are no souls in Purgatory. Can we stick with that?

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Originally posted by OccamsRazor04

Originally posted by colbe

Originally posted by OccamsRazor04
reply to post by colbe

 

How can you pray for souls in a place the Pope says does not exist, and the Pope says there are no souls there? I am not trying to be difficult, I have posted what the Pope has stated in his own words, and you refuse to talk about it.

edit on 24-12-2012 by OccamsRazor04 because: (no reason given)

Why, you question the authority of the Pope while you accepted the Canon decided by a Pope in 382, Pope
Damasus. The Bible is Catholic. How did this happen, inerrant Scripture was decided by an errant Pope?

Seeee,,,,

The Pope never said Purgatory does not exist. Purgatory is in a realm not the same as we are in or might understand, like God being outside of time. You accept this Truth even though you can understand it on a human level.

The Pope said that Purgatory is a process that takes place on Earth, and is not a place itself. I sent you his words and a link to his speech. I am not questioning the authority of the Pope. I am telling you what he said, technically it's you who disagree with him not me.

He never said purgation takes place TOTALLY in this life, on earth. Our crosses are part of our atonement here
and a few experience their purgation here and go straight up. In our loss of faith times, that's a very few.

Put the quote up. Protestants have been claiming this because they misinterpret what he said.
How come you are silent about the Canon? How did an errant Church decide the Canon if the Bible,
is the inerrant word of God? God named an authority.

Did you use to be Catholic?

reply to post by OccamsRazor04


Can’t you see that Colbe isn’t going to talk to you about it because he isn’t catholic and doesn’t understand the difference between the two. It is one make believe over the other so why should he care.

Maybe he is catholic but admitting it doesn’t exist would invalidate everything. It is a catch 22 that they are caught in.

Originally posted by colbe

Originally posted by OccamsRazor04

Originally posted by colbe

Originally posted by OccamsRazor04
reply to post by colbe

 

How can you pray for souls in a place the Pope says does not exist, and the Pope says there are no souls there? I am not trying to be difficult, I have posted what the Pope has stated in his own words, and you refuse to talk about it.

edit on 24-12-2012 by OccamsRazor04 because: (no reason given)

Why, you question the authority of the Pope while you accepted the Canon decided by a Pope in 382, Pope
Damasus. The Bible is Catholic. How did this happen, inerrant Scripture was decided by an errant Pope?

Seeee,,,,

The Pope never said Purgatory does not exist. Purgatory is in a realm not the same as we are in or might understand, like God being outside of time. You accept this Truth even though you can understand it on a human level.

The Pope said that Purgatory is a process that takes place on Earth, and is not a place itself. I sent you his words and a link to his speech. I am not questioning the authority of the Pope. I am telling you what he said, technically it's you who disagree with him not me.

He never said purgation takes place TOTALLY in this life, on earth. Our crosses are part of our atonement here
and a few experience their purgation here and go straight up. In our loss of faith times, that's a very few.

Put the quote up. Protestants have been claiming this because they misinterpret what he said.
How come you are silent about the Canon? How did an errant Church decide the Canon if the Bible,
is the inerrant word of God? God named an authority.

Did you use to be Catholic?

I am not silent, it's simply a Red Herring and I will not engage you on off topic debates allowing you to not answer me.

You should simply read the numerous sources I posted.

Purgatory is like a purifying fire burning inside a person, a painful experience of regret for one's sins, Pope Benedict XVI said.

"A soul stained by sin cannot present itself to God," the pope said Jan. 12 at his weekly general audience.

The pope spoke about purgatory in an audience talk dedicated to the life and mystical writings of St. Catherine of Genoa, a 15th-century married woman who ran Genoa's largest hospital.

Unlike most Catholics of her day, he said, she was convinced purgatory was not a place, but a process.

"The soul that is aware of the immense love and perfect justice of God consequently suffers for not having responded correctly and perfectly to that love," the pope said, adding that the suffering is purgatory.

Here is what Pope John Paul II said.

the term purgatory does not indicate a place, but a condition of existence", where Christ "removes ... the remnants of imperfection".

Multiple popes have said Purgatory does not exist as a place. So who is wrong, you or them?

Here is a help in brief...

Look at all these verses and if you are a Sola Scriptura believer, you can't ignore them.

~~~ ~~~ ~~~

Purgatory

Catholic Note:
Purgatory refers to a temporary state of purification for those who have died in the STATE OF GRACE but still need to get rid of any lingering imperfections (venial sins, earthly attachments, self-will, etc.) before entering the perfection of heaven.

Purgatory has NOTHING to do with ones justification or salvation. Those in purgatory are justified; they are saved. Purgatory has to do with ones HOLINESS and the burning away of remaining self-love. Revelation 21:27

It's true that the word "purgatory" doesn't appear in the Bible (neither do the words "Trinity", "Incarnation" or even "Bible"). However, what's important is not the word, but the doctrine. And the doctrine of the final purification of the elect, apart from heaven or hell, is clearly taught in both the Old Testament and the New Testament."

2 Samuel 12:13-14 - David, though forgiven, is still punished for sin
2 Maccabees 12:39-46 - Next day, they came to find Judas (since the necessity was by now urgent) to have the bodies of the fallen taken up and laid to rest among their relatives in their ancestral tombs. But when they found on each of the dead men, under their tunics, objects dedicated to the idols of Jamnia, which the Law prohibits to Jews, it became clear to everyone that this was why these men had lost their lives. All then blessed the ways of the Lord, the upright judge who brings hidden things to light, and gave themselves to prayer, begging that the sin committed might be completely forgiven. Next, the valiant Judas urged the soldiers to keep themselves free from all sin, having seen with their own eyes the effects of the sin of those who had fallen; after this he took a collection from them individually, amounting to nearly two thousand drachmas, and sent it to Jerusalem to have a sacrifice for sin offered, an action altogether fine and noble, prompted by his belief in the resurrection. For had he not expected the fallen to rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead, whereas if he had in view the splendid recompense reserved for those who make a pious end, the thought was holy and devout. Hence, he had this expiatory sacrifice offered for the dead, so that they might be released from their sin.

Side note: Though this book was rejected by the Protestant reformers and therefore is NOT in Protestant Bibles, one can not ignore the historical reality of this event and the reality of the words which were said.

Matthew 5:25-26 - "you will be thrown into prison and not be released until you have paid the last penny."
Matthew 5:48 - be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect (perfection is to be strived for on earth)
Matthew 12:32 - sin against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, in this age, or the next
Matthew 12:36 - you will have to account for every idle word on judgment day
1 Corinthians 3:10-16 - "if someone's work is burned ... the person will be saved, but only as through fire"
1 Corinthians 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people baptizing for the dead
2 Timothy 1:16-18 - St. Paul prays - asks that God have mercy on his dead friend, Onesiphorus.
Hebrews 12:14 - strive for that holiness without which one cannot see God
Hebrews 12:29 - For our God is a consuming fire
James 1:14-15 - when sin reaches maturity it reaches death
James 3:2 - we all fall short in many respects
1 Peter 3:18-20 to 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in prison.
1 John 5:16-17 - Distinction made between deadly sins and one that are not deadly.
Revelation 21:27 - Nothing unclean will be allowed to enter into heaven.
See also: - Leviticus 26:41, 43; Isaiah 4:4, Isaiah 6:5-7, Isaiah 33:11-14, Micah 7 8-9:, Zechariah 9:11, Malachi 3:2-4, Matthew 18:34ff, Luke 12:58ff, Luke 16:19-31, 2 Corinthians 5:10, 2 Corinthians 7:1, Ephesians 4:8-10, Philippians 2:10-11, 1 Peter 4:6, Revelation 5:3, 13

reply to post by Grimpachi


They are Catholic. That is the problem. Purgatory as a place has been so ingrained into their doctrine, that Popes being forced to say it's not a place, as it being a place is completely unbiblical, it really is a big mess for them.

reply to post by colbe


Good job with the copy and paste, how about you deal with the actual quotes from the multiple Popes I posted.

reply to post by colbe

It's on Christmas -- according to two highly reliable revelations -- that most souls are released into heaven and thus are in need of final prayers.

This makes no sense since the date was "randomly" selected...

There was another thread recently regarding the affirmation of that same fact by the pope in one of his books..

reply to post by OccamsRazor04


Sounds like the Pope debunked it so why do they hold on to the dogma if it goes against their religion.


Ahh err never mind I can’t figure out how they could believe that stuff in the first place.

Originally posted by OccamsRazor04

Originally posted by colbe

Originally posted by OccamsRazor04

Originally posted by colbe

Originally posted by OccamsRazor04
reply to post by colbe

 

How can you pray for souls in a place the Pope says does not exist, and the Pope says there are no souls there? I am not trying to be difficult, I have posted what the Pope has stated in his own words, and you refuse to talk about it.

edit on 24-12-2012 by OccamsRazor04 because: (no reason given)

Why, you question the authority of the Pope while you accepted the Canon decided by a Pope in 382, Pope
Damasus. The Bible is Catholic. How did this happen, inerrant Scripture was decided by an errant Pope?

Seeee,,,,

The Pope never said Purgatory does not exist. Purgatory is in a realm not the same as we are in or might understand, like God being outside of time. You accept this Truth even though you can understand it on a human level.

The Pope said that Purgatory is a process that takes place on Earth, and is not a place itself. I sent you his words and a link to his speech. I am not questioning the authority of the Pope. I am telling you what he said, technically it's you who disagree with him not me.

He never said purgation takes place TOTALLY in this life, on earth. Our crosses are part of our atonement here
and a few experience their purgation here and go straight up. In our loss of faith times, that's a very few.

Put the quote up. Protestants have been claiming this because they misinterpret what he said.
How come you are silent about the Canon? How did an errant Church decide the Canon if the Bible,
is the inerrant word of God? God named an authority.

Did you use to be Catholic?

I am not silent, it's simply a Red Herring and I will not engage you on off topic debates allowing you to not answer me.

You should simply read the numerous sources I posted.

Purgatory is like a purifying fire burning inside a person, a painful experience of regret for one's sins, Pope Benedict XVI said.

"A soul stained by sin cannot present itself to God," the pope said Jan. 12 at his weekly general audience.

The pope spoke about purgatory in an audience talk dedicated to the life and mystical writings of St. Catherine of Genoa, a 15th-century married woman who ran Genoa's largest hospital.

Unlike most Catholics of her day, he said, she was convinced purgatory was not a place, but a process.

"The soul that is aware of the immense love and perfect justice of God consequently suffers for not having responded correctly and perfectly to that love," the pope said, adding that the suffering is purgatory.

Here is what Pope John Paul II said.

the term purgatory does not indicate a place, but a condition of existence", where Christ "removes ... the remnants of imperfection".

Multiple popes have said Purgatory does not exist as a place. So who is wrong, you or them?

You're ignoring plus doesn't help, your general "multiple Popes." Purgatory exists, none of them have denied this fact. It's not an earthly realm as we understand it. That's what Pope John Paul II meant/means.

John Paul said "A condition of existence"... Purgatory exists. God hasn't revealed all the mysteries of Heaven or Purgatory.

Quit misinterpreting to deny Purgatory. You sound more like a fallen away Catholic than Protestant?

reply to post by colbe


Pope John Paul II

the term purgatory does not indicate a place

Now if you don't care what the Pope says and you want to get around it by saying not all mysteries have been revealed that is fine, but the Pope speaks the Word of God in matters of Faith. Which means when he said that, it WAS all revealed. The Pope explicitly states it is NOT a place. He did not say not a place on Earth, or it's some other realm, he specificially states it is NOT a place, anywhere, at all, ever, it's a condition of being.

How much clearer can he get than saying it is not a place? Why is it that the Pope is wrong and you are right?

ETA: Just because you keep asking, I was never Catholic, and am not Protestant. I follow the Bible, nothing more nothing less. The Pope is a man, I follow no men in regards to spirituality, I have but One Father.

Originally posted by OccamsRazor04
reply to post by colbe

 

Good job with the copy and paste, how about you deal with the actual quotes from the multiple Popes I posted.

A way to ignore those verses, many verses, You just copied and pasted. So silly. Purgatory is a teaching of the Church to be believed. You don't. So sad, you can change. Try to be nice again, okay?

Originally posted by OccamsRazor04
reply to post by colbe

 

Pope John Paul II

the term purgatory does not indicate a place

Now if you don't care what the Pope says and you want to get around it by saying not all mysteries have been revealed that is fine, but the Pope speaks the Word of God in matters of Faith. Which means when he said that, it WAS all revealed. The Pope explicitly states it is NOT a place. He did not say not a place on Earth, or it's some other realm, he specificially states it is NOT a place, anywhere, at all, ever, it's a condition of being.

How much clearer can he get than saying it is not a place? Why is it that the Pope is wrong and you are right?

So what are you protesting? One misinterpreted quote doesn't negate Purgatory.

reply to post by OccamsRazor04


Occam I suggest you start a thread on this because it seem that.

a. The pope doesn’t speak clearly.

b. The pope misinterpreted the Bible.

c. The pope debunked it.

Originally posted by OccamsRazor04
reply to post by colbe

 

Pope John Paul II

the term purgatory does not indicate a place

Now if you don't care what the Pope says and you want to get around it by saying not all mysteries have been revealed that is fine, but the Pope speaks the Word of God in matters of Faith. Which means when he said that, it WAS all revealed. The Pope explicitly states it is NOT a place. He did not say not a place on Earth, or it's some other realm, he specificially states it is NOT a place, anywhere, at all, ever, it's a condition of being.

How much clearer can he get than saying it is not a place? Why is it that the Pope is wrong and you are right?

ETA: Just because you keep asking, I was never Catholic, and am not Protestant. I follow the Bible, nothing more nothing less. The Pope is a man, I follow no men in regards to spirituality, I have but One Father.

edit on 24-12-2012 by OccamsRazor04 because: (no reason given)

Well, you are your own authority, that makes it easy. Still, you're saying in the underlined, the Bible is your authority? By whose authority was the Canon decided?

You're protesting a Catholic teaching while you ignore the fact the Bible is a Catholic book. So, the Church
is right on some things but wrong on others, that's pretty confusing. And it's you who gets to decide when She is wrong? Pope John Paul II said Purgatory exists. You're denial of Purgatory doesn't matter.

Jesus wants you to become Roman Catholic and very soon.