A list of already debunked theories, re: Sandy hook

Originally posted by Marlow

Originally posted by DelMarvel

Originally posted by Marlow
I don't know what is standard procedure, but I think.......]

And once again (not to single you out) but this sort of reasoning is rampant in these speculations.

When I read the timeline here
www.abovetopsecret.com...
then there are many things that don't make sense at all.
If I wouldn't know better (because authorities told me) I would think it reads like a drill,
especially the parts regarding medical help.

If you read a physics book and it didn't make sense to you, that doesn't mean that physics is wrong.

It means you are lacking the ability to understand it.

Originally posted by DelMarvel
... what qualifications or expert knowledge you have ...

I have my brain which works quite well.

Originally posted by sconner755
If you read a physics book and it didn't make sense to you, that doesn't mean that physics is wrong.
It means you are lacking the ability to understand it.

Well, unfortunatelly this here is not a physics book, because physics I understand quite good.
What is a bit difficult for me sometimes is to understand the behaviour of human beings.

Originally posted by Marlow

- no dead or injured people ever seen

Ever seen by who? You? They were certainly seen by medical and law enforcement personnel, the coroner, the coroner's 11 assistants, the four doctors who assisted the coroner, the personnel who photographed the scene, whoever transported the bodies, the funeral home staff from multiple operations who prepared the bodies for burial and no doubt many of the surviving family who probably wanted to look at their loved ones no matter how badly damaged the bodies. And do we know for certain that all the caskets were closed? That would radically increase the number of witnesses.

Just because none of this was tape recorded or photographed for public consumption by the various ghoulish elements online doesn't mean no one saw the bodies.

reply to post by Marlow


Marlow I would suggest you go here:

www.youtube.com...

And listen to the first 2 or 3 in the timeline from Newtown and Fairfield recordings. If you go to the last one listed that is actually first then work from there. They both explain why no EMT'S were allowed at the school. It was an active shooter scene for close to an hour. They had no idea if anyone else would get shot so they set up staging at the firehouse. When they found all the kids, they knew almost instantly they were all dead due to the severity and number of wounds.

Originally posted by Marlow

Originally posted by DelMarvel
... what is your basis for assuming conspiracy over (for example) mistakes made in the heat of action?

The reason is that a lot of other things also don't add up, I already posted it a few days ago in another thread but I will repeat it here for you once again:

- killed-to-injured ratio 26:2 is atypical
- no dead or injured people ever seen
- parents allegedly identified dead children only through photographs
- dead bodies allegedly removed from the scene in the middle of the night
- family members with no real emotions of despair (look for micro expressions)
- clean and orderly crime scene at the school totally blocked by state police www.collegian.com...
- medical examiner Carver acting doesn't know how to answer the questions
- contradictions in the official story and on and on and on

I'll address your list point by point:

killed-to-injured ratio 26:2 is atypical

Atypical to what? Do you have other massacres that happened in the same setting and circumstances to compare to? What is the typical "kill to injured" ratio according to you?

no dead or injured people ever seen

This means nothing. The media could have been prevented from taking or releasing any footage of the bodies due to the sensitive nature of this tragedy. Would you like it if you had a child who was shot and her body was paraded in the media for all to gawk at? I highly doubt it.

parents allegedly identified dead children only through photographs

Ignoring the suggestion that this was probably a move of sensitivity on behalf of authorities to the already shocked and grieving parents, what is your source for this allegation?

dead bodies allegedly removed from the scene in the middle of the night

And your point is? This was probably simply done because there would be less crowds of public to get through or that it was still an active crime scene until they moved the bodies.

family members with no real emotions of despair (look for micro expressions)

A baseless and vile assertion that has already been addressed here (by myself and others) ad nauseum.

clean and orderly crime scene at the school totally blocked by state police

Irrelevant. You don't know what time this photograph was taken and they were using the firehouse as the staging area.

medical examiner Carver acting doesn't know how to answer the questions

Again, not sure how long Carver had to do a proper examination until he had to do this interview. Perhaps he was answering the questions in a daft way, but with all respect to him as a professional, you would first have to rule out ineptitude at public speaking before jumping to your conclusion (again baseless) that he was acting.

contradictions in the official story and on and on and on

Could you please tell me where I can find this official story? I was not aware it had been released yet. I would like to see it for myself.

A lot of your points have already been countered in the threads. Please take the time to read the thread before posting the same drivel I'm sure a lot of us are tired of beating a dead horse about.

Originally posted by DelMarvel

Originally posted by Marlow

- no dead or injured people ever seen

Ever seen by who? You? They were certainly seen by medical and law enforcement personnel, the coroner, the coroner's 11 assistants, the four doctors who assisted the coroner, the personnel who photographed the scene, whoever transported the bodies, the funeral home staff from multiple operations who prepared the bodies for burial and no doubt many of the surviving family who probably wanted to look at their loved ones no matter how badly damaged the bodies. And do we know for certain that all the caskets were closed? That would radically increase the number of witnesses.

Just because none of this was tape recorded or photographed for public consumption by the various ghoulish elements online doesn't mean no one saw the bodies.

One could expect something like this
www.hollywoodreporter.com...
for the 2 injured victims.

Edit:
Sorry guys, seems I can't keep up with your posting speed (you are in the majority), but I'll try to answer as many postings as possible, but it can take some time.

Originally posted by Marlow

Originally posted by DelMarvel
... what is your basis for assuming conspiracy over (for example) mistakes made in the heat of action?

The reason is that a lot of other things also don't add up, I already posted it a few days ago in another thread but I will repeat it here for you once again:

- killed-to-injured ratio 26:2 is atypical
- no dead or injured people ever seen
- parents allegedly identified dead children only through photographs
- dead bodies allegedly removed from the scene in the middle of the night
- family members with no real emotions of despair (look for micro expressions)
- clean and orderly crime scene at the school totally blocked by state police www.collegian.com...
- medical examiner Carver acting doesn't know how to answer the questions
- contradictions in the official story and on and on and on

Let's go down your list one by one shall we:

- I can't comment on the ratio, it's atypical so what it happened.

- Parents id's children through photographs because the bodies had not been removed yet, the State Police wanted to find out who was killed and be able to match names to the bodies and get that info tot he families as quickly as possible without having to remove these kids while the national media had their cameras on the school. The parents did not object to this form of identification, given the circumstances.

- they removed the children at night to keep pictures of dead 6 year olds off the news, it's pretty sick really to think you'd want to see that..

- Who are you to decide how the parents should react, and with what emotion, shock does strange things.. Can't base a theory on that...

- Crime Scene was not as orderly as you think it was, it took HOURS to get it to that point, it was a chaotic mess prior, they had to get some control over the scene, be glad they did or you would have had news crews taking pictures of bullet ridden 6 year olds, again, a sick proposition.

- Carver is a moron, we all know that here in CT, now the world knows it. He has nothing on Dr Lee whom he replaced and is always trying to be more like him and failing.. The guy has been a target of many jokes in state over the years, not unusual to us..

- the contradictions are what the media has reported, the Official Story has not much to go on yet still, and it could change again before they are done, that's the nature of an active investigation, or should we throw out hundreds of years of police investigative procedure for the gang at ATS and never change what is said based on theories being proven or dis-proven by the investigation..

reply to post by SkepticOverlord


Not that I disagree, with your points, because I don't but I did notice something interesting. There was the same level of speculation and activity in regards to Aurora (except for the personal information outing, I did not see any of that with Aurora or WI) but I did not see either you or Springer chime in with the level of ferocity that you have on Sandy Hook.

To me, dead people are dead people and all victims of such things should be afforded the same respect but (and crudely put on purpose) apparently dead kids on deck is a completely different ballgame socially.

Again, I agree with the points being made in your post, I just find the difference in approach interesting.

Originally posted by Marlow

Originally posted by DelMarvel
... what qualifications or expert knowledge you have ...

I have my brain which works quite well.

Originally posted by sconner755
If you read a physics book and it didn't make sense to you, that doesn't mean that physics is wrong.
It means you are lacking the ability to understand it.

Well, unfortunatelly this here is not a physics book, because physics I understand quite good.
What is a bit difficult for me sometimes is to understand the behaviour of human beings.

edit on 4-1-2013 by Marlow because: (no reason given)

Here's is your first primer. People do not behave in predictable ways like physics. Even the same person may act differently in the exact same situation.

Now multiply this unpredictability by hundreds, if not thousands of people affected by the SH incident the day it happened. Not only can't you predict how people will act in "normal" circumstances, it's exponentially more difficult to predict how they will react in situations that they have never experienced, like SH.

reply to post by DelMarvel


I'm in Connecticut..... just sayin.... But I'll be darned if I'm going to give my real name out on here..

Originally posted by MidnightTide
reply to post by stopbeingnaive

 

The site owners are simply protecting their business, mass media does look at this site from time to time. Wouldn't look that good if some of these conspiracies get posted on some major news network.

But at least with the new thread they clearly defined what they will allow.....(and as I said before, their site their rules)

"Wouldn't look that good if some of these conspiracies get posted on some major news network."

LOL you can't be serious, not sure if this has been pointed out but the almost exact thread name here on ATS *regarding alleged car owner) was posted on rense (afterward?) and similar posts asking the same questions asked here and on MANY many other alt sites and now it appears MSM comments. The ever changing latest press issued 'official' conspiracy theory still is just a stick figure theory and I personally don't believe it , and apparently MANY others don't as well (read other site comments). I kept up with the last 50 or so pages here, but wow, has there been a sudden influx of 'interested' posters here just lately, lol, just wondering.

reply to post by CosmicBob


You sound just like Weed Whacker after a stint in Rehab Cosmic Bob !!!

Is that you Weedy???

Originally posted by CosmicBob

killed-to-injured ratio 26:2 is atypical

Atypical to what? Do you have other massacres that happened in the same setting and circumstances to compare to? What is the typical "kill to injured" ratio according to you?

Atypical to other school shotings:

killed : injured (shootings with more than 10 killed or injured)

2 :13 Brampton Centennial Secondary School shooting
14:14 École Polytechnique Massacre
1 :19 Dawson College shooting
13:21 Columbine High School massacre
32:17 Virginia Tech massacre

26: 2 Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting

no dead or injured people ever seen

This means nothing. The media could have been prevented from taking or releasing any footage of the bodies due to the sensitive nature of this tragedy. Would you like it if you had a child who was shot and her body was paraded in the media for all to gawk at? I highly doubt it.

All parents should be allowed to see their dead children, but this wasn't the case:

Her Canadian-born father, Gilles Rousseau, told Radio-Canada that he wanted to see his daughter's body but was informed by authorities that it would not be possible.
In a tearful interview, he said the rounds used were so powerful that they ripped through the school's walls and left several holes in his daughter's car outside in the parking lot.
"They told me, 'You can't see (the body),'" Gilles Rousseau told Radio-Canada, the French-language CBC.

www.huffingtonpost.ca...

parents allegedly identified dead children only through photographs

Ignoring the suggestion that this was probably a move of sensitivity on behalf of authorities to the already shocked and grieving parents, what is your source for this allegation?

My source:

All the victims' bodies were removed from from the school overnight and the families identified them through photos, the medical examiner said on Saturday.
Families had only seen pictures of their children's facial features. “It’s easier on the families when you do that,” Carver said.

www.nbcchicago.com...

Parents were not called in to identify their children. Rather, Carver's staff compared photos of the children given by the parents to the bodies.

www.torontosun.com...

dead bodies allegedly removed from the scene in the middle of the night

And your point is? This was probably simply done because there would be less crowds of public to get through or that it was still an active crime scene until they moved the bodies.

This means it can not be excluded from the set of all hypotheses, that maybe there were no bodies removed at all.

family members with no real emotions of despair (look for micro expressions)

A baseless and vile assertion that has already been addressed here (by myself and others) ad nauseum.

I wouldn't say it is baseless, but you could say it is a subjective assertion which is less objectively verifiable.
But a judge has sometimes to do the same when trying to estimate the credibility of a testimony, when there are several testimonies which contradict each other.

clean and orderly crime scene at the school totally blocked by state police

Irrelevant. You don't know what time this photograph was taken and they were using the firehouse as the staging area.

It was taken around noon. The problem is here: They let the Newtown Bee photograper and some bystanders through
timethemoment.files.wordpress.com...
timethemoment.files.wordpress.com...
but not the ambulances. In no video footage or photo have I ever seen an ambulance at the school.

medical examiner Carver acting doesn't know how to answer the questions

Again, not sure how long Carver had to do a proper examination until he had to do this interview. Perhaps he was answering the questions in a daft way, but with all respect to him as a professional, you would first have to rule out ineptitude at public speaking before jumping to your conclusion (again baseless) that he was acting.

Here is a video again with the highlights of Carvers statement to the press of the whole world www.youtube.com...
With "acting" I mean his behaviour when saying "...I dont..." and "...magnificent event...". This doesn't show much respect toward the dead victims and their families.

contradictions in the official story and on and on and on

Could you please tell me where I can find this official story? I was not aware it had been released yet. I would like to see it for myself.

Kind of "Official story" was this:

3:15PM UPDATE: WASHINGTON (AP) - A law enforcement official says the suspect in the
Connecticut school shootings is 24-year-old Ryan Lanza and that his younger brother is being
held for questioning as a possible second shooter. The law enforcement official says the boys'
mother, Nancy Lanza, works at the school as a teacher.
The official also said Ryan Lanza's girlfriend and another friend are missing in New Jersey.
Speaking on condition of anonymity, the official said the suspect is dead from a self-inflicted
gunshot wound.
The official spoke on the condition of anonymity because the source was not authorized to
speak on the record about the developing criminal investigation.

Now regarding to Lt. Vance, misinformation will be prossecuted "to the fullest extent",
but we haven't heared that anybody was held accountable for this story, and I doubt we ever will.
But I admit, someone could argue, that this is not an "official story", because the "official" spoke on condition of anonymity.

However the following should be seen as an "official story":
"a couple of officials told us" Adam Lanza got in an altercation
www.youtube.com...
which was later withdrawn

And also this:
"A law enforcement official in Washington said Lanza's mother, Nancy Lanza, was a teacher at the school."

latino.foxnews.com...

A lot of your points have already been countered in the threads. Please take the time to read the thread before posting the same drivel I'm sure a lot of us are tired of beating a dead horse about.

Thanks for your kind words, I will post no more drivel in your thread.

vkey08's opinion should be highly regarded. She's the ATS member in the closest proximity, and we are fortunate to have a member in the same state that the tragedy occurred.

Kick back for a second folks, and see the objectivity involved. If you can't see it, kick back from the situation a bit more. Quit spouting knee-jerk responses, unless you have info to back them up.

I highly respect ANYTHING that vkey08 has to say. You should re-read some of the lengthy posts she has entered.

Since she is in the same state as the tragedy, I take her statements to be accurate and also hold more weight than any news report. In this scenario, you should listen to what vkey08 has to say. It's honest, and with all the disinformation going around, it's refreshing to get a first person perspective.

In short, vkey08 knows what she is talking about. I'm good with that. I believe her.

Credibility is given when a member is consistent, has a solid posting record, and doesn't sway from their views.

vkey08 meets all those credentials for ATS.

TO MODS: NO PERSONAL INFORMATION IN BELOW POST HAS BEEN GIVEN

So after seeing the article clearing R from any of this, but with seeing the contradictory statement that someone on here noticed in the article (R stated he was parked, police mentioned he remembered pulling him over) and then seeing that Greenwich is where this was supposed to take place at, but we have been listening to Fairfield and Newtown radios, I was almost back to square one in my head on this.

I went back and listened to the Fairfield audio myself, near where they stated R's name and I think I am at peace with this now. But please confirm and help solidify this (school starts back up next week and I need closure )

The videos with with the audio from the radio have been listed several times by two other members here - so if you have been following you know where to go, if not you can easily search via title names below.

Fairfeild 12-14-2012 9_34 to 10_0 Audio Recording
Time 20:23: Sounds like a report of an accident near or at the "Liberty Way Parking Lot"
I did a search for liberty way parking lot + CT and found the below link:
www.greenwichct.org...

If we are talking about the same parking lot (maybe there is one closer to the shooting also???) then this shows that we are also getting radio reports from Greenwich on the Fairfield radio. This is important now because the article that clears R states that he received the warning in Greenwich. So it is possible that we are in fact hearing Greenwich chatter on the Fairfield radio.

Time 21:58: Mentions 'same location' and then asks for tags 5xx-xxx to be run (not listing full plates and do not do so if you end up listening and posting more details). I can't tell if this is the same voice as the 20:23 and I don't know who is the dispatch vs the patrol voices.

In the report that cleared R, he stated he was driving a Nissan. Well the plates starting with 5xx-xxx show a Nissan and also show registered in Norwalk which is close to where R was shown to live. This does not prove this is his car because I am not doing any title searches - this is just a generic search for public information that does not show names or addresses, but does show car type.


Fairfeild 12-14-2012 10_04 to 10_34 Audio Recording (2nd recording)
Time 1:55 - 2:26: Asking for R's name to be run, listed as the operator (voice sounds similar to one of the recordings above, maybe both)
Ok so this is about 11 minutes later after this initial request for plates beginning with 5xx-xxx to be run and now they are asking for the 'operator' to be run also. This is also just about 30 seconds after the plates beginning with 8xx-xxx were asked to be run (that time is at 1:35 in this same recording).

While hearing the 8xx-xxx and then immediately R's name come next, it is easy to put the two together. It has been stated in past posts that they may have been unrelated and due to a traffic stop - but nothing was proven one way or the other. I did find where 8xx-xxx was listed as being registered in Sandy Hook which was close to where L lived, but the radio recording seemed to have more weight than the registration - I still kept my opinion on the fence at least. Note that I don't remember anyone ever posting about the 5xx-xxx plates otherwise I would have done some digging there (unless I missed a post about it). There were plates starting with 7xx-xxx that were brought up and that was a Porche, but not plates with 5xx-xxx.

I think with the article clearing R and then with the above details, this one can be put to rest as debunked (at least for me). I admit it is not 100% as I can find holes in it still, but what we have in summary is:
-a request for 5xx-xxx
-later a request for 8xx-xxx (which is registered in Sandy Hook)
-a request for R's name to be run
-proof that we were hearing Greenwich radio traffic on the Fairfield recordings
-proof that 5xx-xxx is a Nissan (as the article is stating) registered in Norwalk

Without title searches, it is still circumstantial no matter what side of the fence you are on in regards to the plates. But with now hearing the 5xx-xxx and seeing it is a Nissan and with Greenwich radio chatter and now the article, I am on the side that the 8xx-xxx belonged to the L family and that this 5xx-xxx belongs to R now. Closure ...i think

EDIT TO ADD: Remember NOT to post full plates or R's name in regards to this. Thanks!
EDIT ALSO TO ADD: There is still the issue of the back plates of the Honda possibly being different than the front plates...I just remember this If anyone finds a higher res of the rear plate and can clarify one way or the other, please u2u me link, I think I am going to remove it from my head though for now, as the temporary closure I just had felt good lol.

reply to post by ratboy


Bravo! Thanks for putting so much thought into figuring this one out. It seemed plausible to me that we were indeed hearing extra radio chatter, but it also seemed plausible the the person in question with the questionable criminal history could have been involved. This settles it for me that R was not involved.

Thanks again.

reply to post by ratboy


Amazing, good search! I'll sit with ya on that one! Slowly it's all gettin' there, I'm glad this one is (more or less) settled, this is one part that bothered me greatly.

Originally posted by Druid42

Since she is in the same state as the tragedy, I take her statements to be accurate and also hold more weight than any news report. It's honest, and with all the disinformation going around, it's refreshing to get a first person perspective.

Credibility is given when a member is consistent, has a solid posting record, and doesn't sway from their views.

Respecting someone's opinion and views is one thing. That's fine.

Personally, nothing will erase the fact that my B.S meter went off, for every single one of the people interviewed in this case. I don't believe them at all. So, with that said, anybody who lives in CT, can say whatever they want..and it could be great information. No offense, I appreciate the effort to help. However, it won't override the fact that those who were directly involved in this case are not believable...for me. False Flag.