A list of already debunked theories, re: Sandy hook

Originally posted by DarKPenguiNThe problem is, the media reports do not match the scanner and many times the media has different information concerning times.

In relation to these children there is no need for an extensive timeline. The entire even transpired in less than 15 min. We know when the call came in...we know when police arrived...and we know how long the "event" lasted.

That's all we need to begin questioning the veracity of Rosen's story.

Any attempt to claim detailed timelines for the entire day are necessary are an attempt at obfuscation...or an unwillingness to examine this critically.

reply to post by RedBird


My question to you is where did the busdriver leave the bus? First you'd have to ask why a bus was there at 9:30.
This is a contracted transport co.
Why would a busdriver leave the relative safety of the bus to strike out across to woods versus the fire station
at the end of the road, with kids in tow and stop at a stranger's driveway? I am sure they would be well versed in procedure during drills is to go there.

This is the weak link to the entire story.
It is inconceivable that he would be asked by LE to give second hand account in lieu of children.

Please show me the interview follow up by media with this bus driver, their name and how long they have been with the bus company. TIA.
This seems an overlooked story by media and LE.

reply to post by swansong19


So, in other words, you refuse to post the timeline that you claim to have.

Thingis, we have zero idea when these kids left the school. What exit they went through. What direction they went. Where the cops were at that point.

Too many questions to possibly give an accurate story.

That said, again, that part of the event is not on the list, because I haven't seen it definitively debunked.

Hopefully, eventually, some of you will realize that pointing out the baselsess, factless garbage for what it is is not the same as saying there are no questions to be answered.

reply to post by Grimpachi


well, they had magic bullets for jfk, in the 21st, we have magic guns now.

dont question

just buy, buy some more, go to work, go home,

OBEY

THEN BUY SOME MORE

Originally posted by captaintyinknotsThingis, we have zero idea when these kids left the school. What exit they went through. What direction they went. Where the cops were at that point.

None of that is true.

We do have an idea when they left becuase they told Rosen that they saw their dead teacher. So they were there til she was killed. One report has them having to step around her dead body.

And we do know where the police were because we have video of them running into the woods after a suspect(s) with their cars parked in front and to the left side (facing) of the school.

And we also know thanks to Sally Coz...that every door in the school was locked. The school was in lock down.

Now, admittedly, I don't know if those doors could have been opened from the inside by children...but i still contend that it would make no sense for the children at the front of the school to go running through the school when the front door was wide open, right there.

edit...Also, according to Cox...the children were trained to duck for cover in an event like this...under their desks...not go bolting off in a group...which, according to children interviewed, seems to be exactly what they did.

Originally posted by swansong19

Originally posted by captaintyinknotsThingis, we have zero idea when these kids left the school. What exit they went through. What direction they went. Where the cops were at that point.

None of that is true.

We do have an idea when they left becuase they told Rosen that they saw their dead teacher. So they were there til she was killed. One report has them having to step around her dead body.

And we do know where the police were because we have video of them running into the woods after a suspect(s) with their cars parked in front and to the left side (facing) of the school.

And we also know thanks to Sally Coz...that every door in the school was locked. The school was in lock down.

Now, admittedly, I don't know if those doors could have been opened from the inside by children...but i still contend that it would make no sense for the children at the front of the school to go running through the school when the front door was wide open, right there.

So you have a general idea of a timeline. Still have yet to see a complete one.

Just because police were on scene, does not mean that they had the perimeter locked down.

And school doorsw generally are not locked on the inside for fire safety reasons. You can get out, just not in.

reply to post by captaintyinknots


You know precisely where to find timelines...

What, may I ask, would you accept as accurate?

You can let me know tomorrow. I'm going to bed.

But you don't know for sure that they could be opened from the inside, do you?

Fair enough. Still doesn't explain how they got past all the police cars parked at that end of the school...and the police running into those very woods. It's not like the woods immediately border the school. There's a fair bit of open space.

I postulate that they left the school before the first police arrived. They were in the first classroom, nearest to the door. Right after the shooter killed the principal and others in the office/front hall, 9-11 was called. First classroom he enters. Empties his mags. Kids bolt, or (having hidden), flee the room when he leaves. Out the front door -- just like you say, turn right, so you're no longer visible to anyone possibly following, and then straight -- out to the road, across it, and into the woods towards Rosen's house. First responders arrive seconds later.

What was she still doing there at 9:30? Why not one interview with this person? Not even a name? Seems odd for a rapcious media. So at 9:15 the doors are locked...the first calls came in (according to the Newtown Bee) shortly after 9:30. What was the driver still doing there?

I have no idea. I think we can probably put bunny ears around "bus-driver" at this point. But it was a man, not a woman, according to Rosen's first interview. If he stuck around to give Rosen the number for the bus company, and then left -- back to the school, same way he came (through the woods) he could be the same guy in dark jacket and combat pants that the police find in the woods minutes after they arrive.

As a retired psycholigist I would think his first instinct would be to alert the police to the fact that he was in possession of 6...possibly 7 or 8... witnesses to a brutal homocide...not take the time to contact the bus company...write down all the individual parent numbers...and contact them directly relating the story to each one by one. Especially when emergency personnel are right next door.

Actually, immediately contacting the parents to assure them that their children were safe was probably the most sane and humane thing to do in that situation -- and a psychologist of all people would know that. They were safe with him, there was no reason to immediately rush them off to a confused and chaotic staging area full of shouting people, flashing lights, and panic. I 100% understand and approve of his behaviour.

And I am deeply grateful for the opportunity to discuss it calmly and ratrionally.

Cheers.

Originally posted by swansong19
reply to post by captaintyinknots

 

You know precisely where to find timelines...

What, may I ask, would you accept as accurate?

You can let me know tomorrow. I'm going to bed.

A complete timeline is what I am looking for, since you claimed you had it.

Originally posted by swansong19
We do have an idea when they left becuase they told Rosen that they saw their dead teacher. So they were there til she was killed. One report has them having to step around her dead body.

And we do know where the police were because we have video of them running into the woods after a suspect(s) with their cars parked in front and to the left side (facing) of the school.

And we also know thanks to Sally Coz...that every door in the school was locked. The school was in lock down.

Now, admittedly, I don't know if those doors could have been opened from the inside by children...but i still contend that it would make no sense for the children at the front of the school to go running through the school when the front door was wide open, right there.

edit...Also, according to Cox...the children were trained to duck for cover in an event like this...under their desks...not go bolting off in a group...which, according to children interviewed, seems to be exactly what they did.

edit on 26-12-2012 by swansong19 because: (no reason given)

I think your timeline is spot on, and I agree that the kids likely went out the front door of the school. I'm still betting that they literally fled while the shooter was reloading -- Remember: In the next classroom the shooter entered, only one child made it out alive. The shooter didn't just decide to let those kids live. They either hid, or they ran out while the shooter was reloading. There are witness statements that support both versions.

The doors can be opened from the inside. Source: I've volunteered in schools, participated in, and been trained in lock-down procedures.

Lastly, just because the children were trained to "duck and cover" doesn't mean they did! These kids made it out, remember? They were the only ones from their classroom who did. Rejecting their training and acting on instinct saved their lives.

Hunted and wounded things, remember?


I still say they were out of the classroom, and fleeing in blind panic before the police even got there. Which explains how they made it to Rosen's in a simple, straight-forward manner. I'm not saying it is exactly what happened, I'm saying it's reasonable, plausible, and makes sense.

The only part that makes no sense is the "bus-driver".

Maybe he was a guardian angel?

Originally posted by RedBirdAs a retired psycholigist I would think his first instinct would be to alert the police to the fact that he was in possession of 6...possibly 7 or 8... witnesses to a brutal homocide...not take the time to contact the bus company...write down all the individual parent numbers...and contact them directly relating the story to each one by one. Especially when emergency personnel are right next door.

Actually, immediately contacting the parents to assure them that their children were safe was probably the most sane and humane thing to do in that situation -- and a psychologist of all people would know that. They were safe with him, there was no reason to immediately rush them off to a confused and chaotic staging area full of shouting people, flashing lights, and panic. I 100% understand and approve of his behaviour.

K...last one then I have to go to bed.

I couldn't disagree more. If you're right...and the kids got out before the police showed up then Rosen would not even know if the police had been called. All he'd know was something terrible had happened at the school.

Imo...any reasonable person would call the police and let them know the kids were there and to make sure that they were aware of what was going on so someone could speak to the kids as quickly as possible while the events were fresh. They may have needed immediate medical attention for shock.

He never called the police. How would he know any child was interviewed...or was even picked up by their actual parent?

Also...it wouldn't have been an immediate call. he had to contact the bus company...write down the numbers...and then try to get ahold of parents during work hours. Especially when emergency personnel were waiting right next door to help.

His actions combined with his statements make no sense to me.

Originally posted by RedBird

These kids made it out, remember?

But that's just it. We don't know. We have no video...no interview...no names...I have absolutely no proof (verifiable or otherwise) if these kids even exist.

The only part that makes no sense is the "bus-driver".

By the by...I have not seen a report where the bus driver was described as a man. I have seen an interview with Rosen where he mentions a man speaking harshly at the children...but he was in addition to the female bus driver.

Originally posted by captaintyinknots

Originally posted by Helious
reply to post by captaintyinknots

 

That's a good start, getting rid of the ridiculous conspiracy elements allows people to focus on the more important aspects of the discrepancies regarding the case.

The only one I have a question about is this:

Claim 6)Sotos facebook page already existed: Answer: False. Even the creator of the page says flat out that it was a page that was re-appropriated to the topic after the fact.

From what I understand, the name of the facebook page can be changed later but the URL of the page stays the same after creation, that url in question has RIP in it. I could be wrong but I don't think I am.

The owner of the page confirmed that the page was created for something else first, then changed when the event happened.

Right, because IF it was a government agent they would admit such? Come on man, seriously?

reply to post by captaintyinknots


A complete timeline isn't what we need, it's what we need to do.

We have the radio timeline, and all the news articles / witness accounts that have been thrown around. Given time and effort, we could compile them into a timeline better than any presented to the public thus far. But that would be a lot of work.

I have a fairly cogent idea in my mind of how things went down. It's clear that the police on the scene thought that there were multiple suspects. The radio transmissions make that clear. One unit keeps asking for a team to clear the roof, after dispatch relays the school's report that shots were heard on the roof. Two shadows running outside, also relayed by dispatch from the school. Both the "roof" and the "two shadows" were 'be advised' notices relayed from the on-going 911 call.

I suspect that the "two shadows" were parents -- arriving at the school to volunteer, who heard the shots, and were trying desperately to get into the now-locked-down school to save their children. This is confirmed by witness reports. The reports (in the radio transmission) that they had weapons seem erroneous. I think all of the confusion is based on the initial confused reports coming from the terrified teacher on the other end of the 911 call. Shooter on the roof. Shadows running by the gym. Just red herrings. Meanwhile, Lanza is still walking room to room, looking for more people to shoot. Shots are still being fired.

They didn't let the medical teams into the area because they thought there were multiple suspects. There wasn't. That's the big "woops". The incompetence and "odd" response everyone keeps talking about -- while at the same time deriding the "lone gunman" scenario: They screwed up BECAUSE they were looking for a second shooter! All of the confusion and chaos stems from the fact that long after Lanza was dead, and everything was over, the police were still chasing shadows, and refusing access to the medical personnel.

Not their fault. The information on the ground was contradictory, and they couldn't take any chances. The whole thing makes sense. And when the official story does come out, I bet I'm pretty close to dead-on.

No conspiracy. No incompetence. No cover-up.

Just a sad set of circumstances, and a very bad day.

reply to post by 1nf1del


That, along with the fact that it is proven that it is easily done.

Or is that how we do it now? Claim that they are "an agent" to call into question any statement made by anyone, ever? That way we can ignore the facts we want, because "they may be an agent".

Come on man, is right.

Originally posted by violet
Good thread for debunking

I do feel though that you should have added something that supports each claim as being false.
Otherwise all you are realliy saying is I think this is highly unlikely. Highly unlikely and what I' personally think isn't enough and is not satisfactory debunking.

Each of these silly claims provided sources, where are yours?
Or tear into these alleged sources so they are shown to be false .

Anyways I'm with you, I think people really died. I think a massacre took place and lives were lost, lives were destroyed.

Still though, I like to keep an open mind and remember sometimes it can be 'Not Everything Is As It Seems' .It would serve you well to remember that quote for future conspiracies on any subject.

edit on 23-12-2012 by violet because: (no reason given)

Exactly, no facts = opinion, OP has come to the conclusion that his opinion is the correct opinion, nobody else can have a correct opinion!

I change my mind what I said this morning (I'm in a better mood after having a nice Christmas dinner and a couple of drinks).

I only participated in one discussion about Sandy Hook - basically to express my disgust at the way people were acting in the thread and to express my condolences to the families involved. I try to keep out of the drama on the boards. But there always seems to be a few individuals that egg each other on and derail threads starting flame wars, bashing and name calling. I have not even followed the rest of the Sandy Hook threads, so I am guessing I have missed a lot of drama - which is okay by me. I still believe that what happened - was a senseless tragedy. And that the shooter, was seriously mentally ill.

I too am a moderator of a forum on another website. I've been lucky, that in my group of 352 members (all female too with hormone disorders no less...), I've only had to ban two people in four years of running the group - and they all received warnings for their behaviour. The rest of the members have no problem responding with tact and respect for each other. The group itself needs very little moderation and for that, as forum owner - I'm proud of my group and the girls in it.

Respect, is earned. And given in return. And I know I will continue to post with the utmost respect.

reply to post by 1nf1del


As I've challenged all of the whiners to do, please refute anything I've stated with facts to prove me wrong.

Just like all of the others, I know you won't.

Originally posted by swansong19
K...last one then I have to go to bed.

I couldn't disagree more. If you're right...and the kids got out before the police showed up then Rosen would not even know if the police had been called. All he'd know was something terrible had happened at the school. Imo...any reasonable person would call the police and let them know the kids were there and to make sure that they were aware of what was going on so someone could speak to the kids as quickly as possible while the events were fresh. They may have needed immediate medical attention for shock. He never called the police. How would he know any child was interviewed...or was even picked up by their actual parent? No. His actions combined with his statements make no sense to me.

edit on 26-12-2012 by swansong19 because: (no reason given)

Fair enough. And goodnight -- Merry Christmas!

We'll have to agree to disagree, for the night at least. I think Rosen's actions were laudable, and I am warmed by the idea that his first thought was to contact the children's parents. That's what I would have done, If I could, and it's what I would have wanted someone to do if it were MY child.

The man was a professional, and understood trauma. He minimized the emotional trauma to the children without compromising their safety.

Originally posted by RedBird

I have no idea. I think we can probably put bunny ears around "bus-driver" at this point. But it was a man, not a woman, according to Rosen's first interview. If he stuck around to give Rosen the number for the bus company, and then left -- back to the school, same way he came (through the woods) he could be the same guy in dark jacket and combat pants that the police find in the woods minutes after they arrive.

Not sure which interview you're referring to because the interview I saw Rosen refers to the bus driver as being a female:

www.youtube.com...

So, regardless, if the interview you saw refers to the bus driver as being a male, then that just makes Rosen's account of the events even more questionable.