NRA Pipes Up Again

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck

Originally posted by macman

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck
Finally...as I have stated on numerous occasions (ad nauseum I might add), this is an international forum. May I quote your Harry S. Truman in stating "If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen"?

That is very quaint.
I would suggest that for you in return.
Maybe take care of Canada first, before you go bitching about your neighbors INTERNAL issues.

Once again, this IS an international forum. In fact, one of the founding fathers...if I may be so bold...is a Brit. If you can't take an international response to an issue, I would suggest that you utilise a forum in which you can all sit around in a circle, nod, bob, and say 'ditto'. Otherwise...as my cop friend likes to say..."Suck it up, Buttercup!"

You gotta love the Canadian way with words.

reply to post by JohnnyCanuck

So here's my question...you stock your elementary schools with armed guards...sure to create an environment of sustained fear for the children, anyway (but that's another thread)

That's got to be the craziest thing I ever heard. In my daughters middle school they have a full time city police officer, in full uniform, with a gun, hand cuffs and with a radio. And his patrol car is parked in front of the entrance. It creates an environment of fear for the perps not the children.

Originally posted by whatsecret
reply to post by JohnnyCanuck

 

So here's my question...you stock your elementary schools with armed guards...sure to create an environment of sustained fear for the children, anyway (but that's another thread)

That's got to be the craziest thing I ever heard. In my daughters middle school they have a full time city police officer, in full uniform, with a gun, hand cuffs and with a radio. And his patrol car is parked in front of the entrance. It creates an environment of fear for the perps not the children.

I'm not going to tell you you're wrong, it's simply a weird alternate reality to us. Yes, a gang-ravaged school can have a police presence. But as a matter of course? Naa...crazy talk. Says a lot about the cultural difference your 2'nd amendment has nurtured. I say that not in criticism, but as an observation. I still like Americans and I'm still planning a road trip to the Rock and Roll Museum in Cleveland this summer.

reply to post by Answer


I never suggested you dissassemble your gun, did I? In fact, I don't remember anyone asking exactly what I meant by that statement. It was general, vague...meant to start a conversation on what can be done to keep firearms away from people who shouldn't have them.

Firearm in a locked lockbox/safe, unloaded. That's all I ask. I'm not saying you have to take it apart, put the ammo in a different room and lock it in a locked box inside a locked 1,000 pound safe. If you're not taking the minimum precaution of at least keeping weapons away from your children, you're being an irresponsible gun owner.

reply to post by macman


Honestly, I can tell you're getting really upset over all of this. Which is fine, I'll try to not upset you too much further. I have problems with the second amendment and certain interpretations of it. OK? You and I will disagree until the day we die about that, you're not going to change my mind and I'm not going to change yours. With that said, can we, at the very least, agree on something to either minimize or reduce the number of murders/mass shootings in America? I'll even go so far as to agree with the idea of armed security near highly populated schools...if you agree that more can be done to keep firearms out of reach of the people who shouldn't have them.

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck

Originally posted by whatsecret
reply to post by JohnnyCanuck

 

So here's my question...you stock your elementary schools with armed guards...sure to create an environment of sustained fear for the children, anyway (but that's another thread)

That's got to be the craziest thing I ever heard. In my daughters middle school they have a full time city police officer, in full uniform, with a gun, hand cuffs and with a radio. And his patrol car is parked in front of the entrance. It creates an environment of fear for the perps not the children.

I'm not going to tell you you're wrong, it's simply a weird alternate reality to us. Yes, a gang-ravaged school can have a police presence. But as a matter of course? Naa...crazy talk. Says a lot about the cultural difference your 2'nd amendment has nurtured. I say that not in criticism, but as an observation. I still like Americans and I'm still planning a road trip to the Rock and Roll Museum in Cleveland this summer.

Expecting that police will save you from a homicidal lunatic is crazy talk in my opinion. It is really not hard to understand that police will arrive only after they get a call for help. Remember that it only took around ten minutes for Lanza to kill 26 people including himself. While it might not be the case all the time but the police is there to make you feel safe not afraid.

What do you think is more likely.. a break into a house with a Honda parked in front of it or a mark police car?

reply to post by links234

I'll even go so far as to agree with the idea of armed security near highly populated schools

Excuse me for cutting in, but I just have to ask why is it ok to have armed security at a court house but not in school?

if you agree that more can be done to keep firearms out of reach of the people who shouldn't have them.

How do you think this can be accomplished? Like we keep drugs out of reach of people who shouldn't sell drugs? Law abiding people don't sell drugs because it's illegal, but it doesn't stop a criminal from selling drugs, why do you think that is?

Originally posted by whatsecret
Excuse me for cutting in, but I just have to ask why is it ok to have armed security at a court house but not in school?

No problem. I would suggest you ask Ron Paul for one perspective. Another would be that we shouldn't need to have armed guards walking the halls of our schools. Also, what's to stop an arms race? If the guards have pistols then the criminals will get body armor and more guns. Will we start arming the guards with M-16's or M-4's? Where does the continual armament stop? Do we reach a point where it seems 'reasonable' to arm children?

How do you think this can be accomplished? Like we keep drugs out of reach of people who shouldn't sell drugs? Law abiding people don't sell drugs because it's illegal, but it doesn't stop a criminal from selling drugs, why do you think that is?

A big difference between guns and drugs is that anyone can make drugs. Not everyone can make guns. You can plant seeds to grow pot or buy cold medicine to make meth. You have to have some real skill and some real tools to be able to make your own guns. If a criminal can steal an unlocked, unattended gun to sell it then I believe that's different than growing pot in a basement to sell it.

reply to post by links234

No problem. I would suggest you ask Ron Paul for one perspective. Another would be that we shouldn't need to have armed guards walking the halls of our schools. Also, what's to stop an arms race? If the guards have pistols then the criminals will get body armor and more guns. Will we start arming the guards with M-16's or M-4's? Where does the continual armament stop? Do we reach a point where it seems 'reasonable' to arm children?

And if we make all guns completely illegal what's to stop him from making a bomb like Timothy McVeigh? Or something like this?

Do we reach a point where it seems reasonable to ban all knife and all fertilizers?

A big difference between guns and drugs is that anyone can make drugs. Not everyone can make guns. You can plant seeds to grow pot or buy cold medicine to make meth. You have to have some real skill and some real tools to be able to make your own guns. If a criminal can steal an unlocked, unattended gun to sell it then I believe that's different than growing pot in a basement to sell it.

Anyone can make coc aine, crack or extacy? I disagree.

What are we going to do about this?

I know what'll make the NRA's idea go down the toilet. Just have the next mass shooting be done by the guard when on duty.
Illuminati, am I hired?

reply to post by whatsecret


Now I think we're getting somewhere...You're starting to get into areas of mental illness, which is a key part of mass shootings. Most homicides by firearm are done by, for all intents and purposes, sane people.

So while we can't eradicate crime or murder we can significantly reduce it with the restriction of accessibility of firearms. We can also work towards mental healthcare in this country through single-payer systems and making mental health professionals more accessible.

Yes, just about anyone can make crack. You just need a little coc aine and a couple of secondary ingredients. That's not really the topic we should be focusing on right now though.

Again, I think there should be some meaningful effort to keep firearms out of the hands of criminals and within the hands of law-abiding citizens. I already mentioned the idea of keeping guns locked up safely. I didn't demand prohibition or complete disarmament of citizens, I'm trying to be reasonable and find common ground here.

reply to post by links234

So while we can't eradicate crime or murder we can significantly reduce it with the restriction of accessibility of firearms. We can also work towards mental healthcare in this country through single-payer systems and making mental health professionals more accessible.

You know this arguments is getting sillier and sillier everyday. I want to know that when my kids go to school and a maniac decides to go there to hurt kids with a gun, knife or his fists he will find himself with a bullet in the head and not from his own firearm. People are the cause of crimes not firearms. When a drunk driver kills somebody it's not the cars fault. Making health care accessible does absolutely nothing about keeping anybody any safer.

People are unpredictable and at any moment may decide to go nuts and hurt someone by hundreds of available means. The only way to deal with it is being able to defend yourself at the moment of an attack.

Yes, just about anyone can make crack. You just need a little coc aine and a couple of secondary ingredients. That's not really the topic we should be focusing on right now though.

lol You just need a little of very illegal coc aine to make illegal crack. We are not talking about drugs but I think we are talking about criminals. And just like a drug dealer can easily find a little of illegal coc aine to do what he wants (make crack) , a murderer will find anything to do what he wants (murder somebody).

The difference is that I want to be able to stop him before he kills me and you apparently want to take a time out to call 911 so that the police will stop him before he kills you. and that is pretty much impossible in your case.

Again, I think there should be some meaningful effort to keep firearms out of the hands of criminals and within the hands of law-abiding citizens. I already mentioned the idea of keeping guns locked up safely.

You see a person becomes a criminal at the moment he commits a crime and that can happen at any time. And since there is no possible way to predict who, where and when this can happen the only meaningful effort to be safe is to be ready to stop him where he begins. Armed and trained school personnel is the only way we have to make schools as safe as a court house.

As for the keeping guns locked up safely... is a matter of common sense, kind of like locking your front door at night or looking both ways when crossing a street. Very simple yet people still forget to do both.

Originally posted by whatsecret
As for the keeping guns locked up safely... is a matter of common sense, kind of like locking your front door at night or looking both ways when crossing a street. Very simple yet people still forget to do both.

Then why are you arguing with me? Because I don't think we should put armed guards in school...even if I'm willing to do it? Or because I think we should keep guns away from people who don't own them...which you agree with?


Masterful troll.

Originally posted by links234

Originally posted by whatsecret
As for the keeping guns locked up safely... is a matter of common sense, kind of like locking your front door at night or looking both ways when crossing a street. Very simple yet people still forget to do both.

Then why are you arguing with me? Because I don't think we should put armed guards in school...even if I'm willing to do it? Or because I think we should keep guns away from people who don't own them...which you agree with?

Masterful troll.

It's interesting that you must insult me for no apparent reason..

By the way I was not arguing with you, I just wanted to know why putting armed guards in school is such a big deal.

I'll even go so far as to agree with the idea of armed security near highly populated schools

The "go as far as" part made me think that it is something unheard of and outrageous, but you would do agree to it only if we make more useless laws. But here's the problem.. we already have all the laws for keeping guns away from criminals. But them criminals don't follow the law.

Anyways.... nice talking with you.

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck
Once again, this IS an international forum. In fact, one of the founding fathers...if I may be so bold...is a Brit.

That is nice and all. But once again, how about you take care of your home country before you spout off on what others are doing?
Oh, I forgot, this is an international forum, and you would rather comment, uneducated, on what others are doing.

Oh, and he WAS a BRIT, as when America was founded, that status was changed.

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck
If you can't take an international response to an issue, I would suggest that you utilise a forum in which you can all sit around in a circle, nod, bob, and say 'ditto'. Otherwise...as my cop friend likes to say..."Suck it up, Buttercup!"

Oh, I get it.
Because YOU have stated it, it is so.
Why don't you suck it up?

Originally posted by links234


Honestly, I can tell you're getting really upset over all of this. Which is fine, I'll try to not upset you too much further.

This is not me upset.
This is me frustrated with just how stupid the responses are from those that fear an inanimate object.
Oh, I am fat, so I fear cake.
Oh, I am diabetic, so I fear sugar.

Originally posted by links234

I have problems with the second amendment and certain interpretations of it. OK?

No, not ok.
You can have problems with it, but.....................it is one of the few RIGHTS that are stated SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED ON.
SO, you can have problems all day. But, when your problem violates my 2nd Amendment rights, that is the true problem.

Originally posted by links234
You and I will disagree until the day we die about that, you're not going to change my mind and I'm not going to change yours. With that said, can we, at the very least, agree on something to either minimize or reduce the number of murders/mass shootings in America?

And the NRA proposed a great idea. More so then what the Govt has. In fact, most in the Fed Govt, and those inn Govt in Liberal States are squealing like pigs about it.
When, most schools will have a LEO in the halls at least once a week, if not more.
Oh, and several states, like UT, allow teachers to carry concealed Weapons, with no problems and no MASS shootings.
All of these shootings, with the exception/anomaly of Giffords, happen in the Liberal Grand idea of "Gun Free Zones".
And who would have thunk that such a target rich environment would have mass shootings. DUH!!!

Originally posted by links234
I'll even go so far as to agree with the idea of armed security near highly populated schools...if you agree that more can be done to keep firearms out of reach of the people who shouldn't have them.

There are already policies and laws in place that make it difficult, and violate the 2nd Amendment, that work to restrict ownership.
Yet, in Gun Free Cities like Chicago, it is murder and bullet ridden.
SO, it is not the fault of the gun.
It is the fault of society and the PERSON that does the action.

Originally posted by macman

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck
Once again, this IS an international forum. In fact, one of the founding fathers...if I may be so bold...is a Brit.

That is nice and all. But once again, how about you take care of your home country before you spout off on what others are doing?
Oh, I forgot, this is an international forum, and you would rather comment, uneducated, on what others are doing.

Oh, and he WAS a BRIT, as when America was founded, that status was changed.

Actually, you have no idea what I do to 'take care of my own country'. I don't believe my comments are made from an uneducated standpoint either, but revulsion is revulsion. Don't forget what your famous Bob Dylan sang - "you don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows".

And the Brit? I'm sorry, I should have been more specific...I meant Founding Fathers of this forum. I don't believe Simon Gray has cashed in his citizenship and moved to the Colonies quite yet. But you may know better. Let's not have this discussion derail the thread any further, ok?

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck
Actually, you have no idea what I do to 'take care of my own country'. I don't believe my comments are made from an uneducated standpoint either, but revulsion is revulsion. Don't forget what your famous Bob Dylan sang - "you don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows".

Your right. I don't. And I don't really care either.
Canada is far from perfect. Maybe focus on your own problems, before you start spouting off on others.
And no, you really don't have a clue, as I requested you research a couple of things, and you have failed to do so or have not wanted to engage on your findings.
Let me help you start. Where have all of these mass shootings happened???
What is the criminal mindset behind these shootings?
That should keep you busy for a while.

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck
And the Brit? I'm sorry, I should have been more specific...I meant Founding Fathers of this forum. I don't believe Simon Gray has cashed in his citizenship and moved to the Colonies quite yet. But you may know better. Let's not have this discussion derail the thread any further, ok?

And that means what to me???
That is nice and all, but means squat.
Just because this is a "International" Forum, does not then mean people get to openly criticize other nations, when their own crap isn't even straight.

I am sure that you are against the War in Iraq, right???
Well, that is one of the following steps after criticizing other nations.
The US is not Canada, and does not want to be Canada.
Same goes in reverse I am sure.
I don't tell you or others how to run or what to expect from your own country because the US needs work.
Once YOUR Canada is the perfect beacon of the world, then your OPINION and uneducated interpretation of our laws might be pertinent.

Originally posted by macman
And no, you really don't have a clue, as I requested you research a couple of things, and you have failed to do so or have not wanted to engage on your findings.
Let me help you start. Where have all of these mass shootings happened???
What is the criminal mindset behind these shootings?
That should keep you busy for a while.

You'd better provide me with a couple of links, because so far I have not found anything that I figure you might endorse...starting with Mass Murder in Newtown: Why and Where Next?

Just because this is a "International" Forum, does not then mean people get to openly criticize other nations, when their own crap isn't even straight. Once YOUR Canada is the perfect beacon of the world, then your OPINION and uneducated interpretation of our laws might be pertinent.

Ahhh...sorry, America did not invent, nor does it control, freedom of speech. But thanks for your interest, just the same.

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck


So here's my question...you stock your elementary schools with armed guards...sure to create an environment of sustained fear for the children, anyway (but that's another thread)...and a shooter shows up. Is he going to check in with the office and get a pass? No. He is going to take out the guard, then go about his business. Then what?

Armed guards merely address the symptom. How about addressing the causes?

I'm not seeing much of that debate from the gun lobby.


w ww.huffingtonpost.com
(visit the link for the full news article)

so...the kids that go to elite schools of very wealthy people where they actually have armed guards, those kids live in "sustained enviorment of fear"?.....plus i haven't heard of any "shooter " showing up at those schools, have you?

Originally posted by Zcustosmorum
What a great environment for a school, armed officers everywhere, that can't be good for kids to be brought up in

The NRA seemed to have missed the point overall, perceptions may differ but armed cops do not decrease the chances of another attack, it merely puts more people in the firing line imo.

seems ok for the kids of the wealthy elite, they seems to grow up just fine.