More and more stories about accelerating climate change

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000

On the other hand... Antarctica was a tropic, life friendly and lush climate at one time and North America was crushed under Glaciers right on across where I sit today.

edit on 23-12-2012 by Wrabbit2000 because: (no reason given)

The reason Antarctica was once "a tropic, life friendly and lush climate" is because it used to be located north of the Equator.

About 560 million years ago, Antarctica was north of the Equator. Evidence for this has been supported by specimens found of tropical plant fossils.

Source

Antarctica once being lush has everything to do with plate tectonics, and very little to do with global climate.

reply to post by December21st2012


and what makes you think that a flood in England, a country with one of the highest levels of rainfall in Europe and with a long history of major floods going back centurys, has anything to do with global warming?

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

The fact I can come back with scientific articles saying Antarctic ice is GAINING mass and not losing it

Land ice or sea ice? What's the net gain/loss? Does increasing sea ice preclude a global warming trend? What do changes in land ice indicate?

reply to post by Phage


I see what you are doing here. But for the benefit of the rest of us, who are interested in knowledge, no matter who holds it, please also share the answers and the implications. Thanks.

reply to post by December21st2012

I would like the answers as well.
Someone said they can provide scientific articles about Antarctic ice. I was asking questions about those articles.

But he was unable to say with certainty that the greater warming his team found was due to human activities.

"The jury is still out on that. That piece of research has not been done. My opinion is that it probably is, but I can't say that definitively."


The above is quoted from the article the OP posted.


Here's a counter to your post OP:

www.forbes.com...

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by Wrabbit2000

 

The fact I can come back with scientific articles saying Antarctic ice is GAINING mass and not losing it

Land ice or sea ice? What's the net gain/loss? Does increasing sea ice preclude a global warming trend? What do changes in land ice indicate?

edit on 12/23/2012 by Phage because: (no reason given)

Well Phage, that's the whole crux of the issue here isn't it? I could run off and get examples of the above things you cite but I'll bet you've seen most I'd find at one time or another as much as I have.

I think the problem in declaring anything to be certain to the point of actually basing policy decisions or major action on it is the fact educated professionals still strongly disagree in good faith on what is causing climate change....whether that change is actually warming or cooling ....and whether man can or should change that whether we had direct cause to it or not.

I'm still seeing occasional sourced reports pop up suggesting we're still cooling and not warming...I mean the idea it's settled science is nice to hear one former politician say on his video on the topic....but I can't say I've seen that quite the same way, have you?

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

I'm still seeing occasional sourced reports pop up suggesting we're still cooling and not warming

And yet by far the majority of data (including the situation in the Arctic) demonstrates a warming trend. Even those who dispute anthropomorphic causes cite it.

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by Wrabbit2000

 

I'm still seeing occasional sourced reports pop up suggesting we're still cooling and not warming

And yet by far the majority of data (including the situation in the Arctic) demonstrates a warming trend. Even those who dispute anthropomorphic causes cite it.

edit on 12/23/2012 by Phage because: (no reason given)

Well, it would seem to ....in many ways anyway. Then we get other areas of the planet who have had rather startling extremes in winter weather and freezing half to death. Russia, for instance, is suffering on of the most brutal winters in their recent history as headlines have been showing and they're by far not the only ones to have seen 'hell' come with a negative temperature and not the overly warm ones other areas are getting so much of.

I can't argue climate change itself. In fact, heck..I was saying this myself in the late 90's before it was a fad yet or anyone really cared. Out on the road with trucking, one lives in the weather day in and day out. The changes in both warm and cold weather getting more extreme as it were, are impossible to miss and for a long time now.

I just hate to think .....when we had scientists equally CERTAIN of a coming global ice age in the 70's (Still proposed today by some) we now are SURE it's warming. If they'd acted on their "certain" knowledge and theories back the first time...and THIS is warming? Where would that have put this planet for acting in precisely the wrong direction? In fighting an ice age that didn't exist...we'd have inadvertently have worked to warm the planet...and insured we die as cooked birds for the long term. Likewise, moving the other way in error.

All things being equal...I want certainty beyond reasonable doubts ...not simply a consensus as some call it....when the actions taken are likely irreversible and quite possibly insuring our own doom if taken poorly or in the wrong direction to how this turns out to be. Just my thoughts.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

Then we get other areas of the planet who have had rather startling extremes in winter weather and freezing half to death.

Not really seeing record low temperatures though. More precipitation (and extremes in general) would be a symptom of warming. In contrast, we have been seeing record highs.

when we had scientists equally CERTAIN of a coming global ice age in the 70's

Not really. A few maybe, but not many. That ice age scare was mostly media hype.
journals.ametsoc.org...

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by Wrabbit2000

 

Then we get other areas of the planet who have had rather startling extremes in winter weather and freezing half to death.

Not really seeing record low temperatures though. More precipitation (and extremes in general) would be a symptom of warming. In contrast, we have been seeing record highs.

when we had scientists equally CERTAIN of a coming global ice age in the 70's

Not really. A few maybe, but not many. That ice age scare was mostly media hype.
journals.ametsoc.org...

So if its warm, its global warming? and if its cold its global warming too?
If there are droughts its global warming ? and if there are floods its global warming too? ah i see,kinda covers everything realy.......

This one I will source on a couple because it's part and parcel to the point of climate change being cold extremes as well as hot ones. This is one of the headlines for the current winter storm problems in Russia.

Cold snap claims nearly 200 lives in Russia, Eastern Europe

MOSCOW: A vicious cold snap across Russia and Eastern Europe has claimed nearly 200 lives, officials figures showed today, as forecasters warned it would last until Christmas Eve.

In Russia, the cold has killed two people in the past 24 hours, the Ria-Novosti agency reported, citing medical sources, bringing the total number of deaths over the past week to 56.

(The above source doesn't play up the record breaking aspect of this...but several others note how it's been several decades since they've matched this for temp and dates.......about the same as above average examples are cited frequently to prove the opposite)

This was from Feb., also in Russia

Deadly freeze: Hundreds dead in Ukraine, Russia and Eastern Europe

The most alarming reports have come from Ukraine, where the death toll has topped 100. To fight the -34-35C freeze, Ukraine has opened some 2,940 “warming posts” which have been visited by more than 17,000 people since last Friday. In just over three days, the country used 1 billion cubic meters of gas – a huge jump from the usual rate of 160 million cubic meters per day.

In Belarus, over 900 schools had to close as temperatures there hit the -25C threshold, which is extreme for the country. Kazakhstan’s authorities took similar measures, with the temperature dipping to -52C.

The Russian capital, meanwhile, has seen a series of record low temperatures, with last night’s temperature plummeting to -28, the lowest for more than 60 years. On February 1, Moscow also broke its record for daily energy consumption, with 17,333 Megawatts being used.

and this from the National Snow and Ice Data Center on the Arctic and Antarctic ice conditions with meaning (or lack of it) for trends being observed in the short term)

Poles apart: A record-breaking summer and winter

The sun has set over the central Arctic Ocean and sea ice extent is now increasing. While much attention has been paid to the record minimum Arctic ice extent set on September 16, 2012, winter sea ice extent in Antarctica has reached a record high. The Antarctic extent increase is an interesting response to changes in circulation patterns in the Southern Hemisphere.

The above links don't show anything definitive...but again, that is the whole issue on this topic. Nothing does. For every article or study showing warming, I'll find one showing no discernible change or a change in the other direction. For each showing man, I'm sure I can find one or 6 showing the Sun, natural Methane release, Swamp Gas, Cow farts or just plain data without a clear answer.

It makes for a great and absolutely essential national debate and discussion to have and have it we must. I just can't see much value while both sides ....as in SO many things these days... consider being RIGHT to be more important than being correct. ('sides' referring to the greater debate..not us here per say)

reply to post by yorkshirelad


My point was....we have a unique time going on all around us in multiple disciplines...it is "science for sale"...no one likes to see it....no one likes to acknowledge it or believe it is true...but...it is true.

There are those out there that will tilt the table toward a goal just for those research dollars....

At some point, all data has to be reviewed and categorized...if something seems to go against the agenda you are ...even subconsciously....pushing...it gets categorized as 'anomalous results"...apparently there are a LOT of anomalies these days.

I will not state my opinion here about what I think is actually happening...it serves no use. My opinion is, we have science for sale and that is a damn sad-sad day.

reply to post by auraelium

So if its warm, its global warming? and if its cold its global warming too?

Not talking about warm or cold. If there are a lot of record high temperatures it's a good indication of warming. If there are a lot of record low temperatures it would be a contraindication but there don't seem to be to many of those.

If there are droughts its global warming ? and if there are floods its global warming too?

Warming would lead to more severe droughts in some areas and more severe precipitation in others. To over simplify it: Warmer temperatures mean more evaporation from the oceans, that means more precipitation in areas exposed to marine environments. Warmer temperatures mean more evaporation in already dry areas, making them drier.

Its a bit of a no brainer trying to link cold winters in Russia with climate change.

reply to post by December21st2012


I'm not denying the fact that the climate is changing, however it is not through global warming. Other planets in our solar system are being effected as well, if it was global warming it only Terra(Earth) would be influenced.
We know it is an external cosmic influence, for example the sun went quadra-pole earlier this year and other planets like Saturn have experienced turbulence to some degree.
I don't deny we are going through a shift, humans only subtly influence the earth with our actions. Sure, we will get her so polluted that a cleansing must take place, but that's only cyclical and supposed to happen. We are changing the earth, though it is arrogant for humanity to assume it's making the big changes. We are only adding fuel to the fire.

reply to post by eyezenmaitreya

Other planets in our solar system are being effected as well,

We don't really know enough about the climates (past or present) on other planets to say that.

We know it is an external cosmic influence, for example the sun went quadra-pole earlier

The general polarity of the Sun reverses every eleven years or so but it is never simply bipolar, it is always quite complex. There is no indication that there is any external influence on the process.

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by auraelium

 

So if its warm, its global warming? and if its cold its global warming too?

Not talking about warm or cold. If there are a lot of record high temperatures it's a good indication of warming. If there are a lot of record low temperatures it would be a contraindication but there don't seem to be to many of those.

There were over 2000 in the US last October alone,5000 record lows in the USA over last winter iirc.Russia is experiencing its coldest winter in 50 years and England and Ireland have just witnessed their coldest November and are on course for their coldest winter since records began. when you say their doesnt seem to be many of those (as in cold records),do you have evidence for that or is it just based on what you see outside your bedroom window?

If there are droughts its global warming ? and if there are floods its global warming too? Warming would lead to more severe droughts in some areas and more severe precipitation in others. To over simplify it: Warmer temperatures mean more evaporation from the oceans, that means more precipitation in areas exposed to marine environments. Warmer temperatures mean more evaporation in already dry areas, making them drier.

There is no evidence that droughts are getting worse or more frequent, the same for flooding.

For me, it is difficult not to believe there is a warming planet in the works
when we can see the disappearance of glacial ice globally, with snap shots 50 years old as
proof..We see video after video of the consistent crumbling of them into the ocean,
this last summer NASA shows information of Greenland record Ice loss in just a month,.

If this stuff isnt really happening,.. what would be the reason for lying about it.

reply to post by auraelium

,5000 record lows in the USA over last winter iirc

A few examples?

Russia is experiencing its coldest winter in 50 years

It is? Coldest ever in 50 years? Got some data for that?

when you say their doesnt seem to be many of those (as in cold records),do you have evidence for that or is it just based on what you see outside your bedroom window?

Here's a start.
www.infoplease.com...

There is no evidence that droughts are getting worse or more frequent, the same for flooding.

Actually there are some indications that they are but I didn't say they were. I was answering your question about the effects of warming on floods and drought. At some point, if warming is occurring, these things will also occur.