To U.K. Members Suggesting A U.S. Repeal Of The Second Amendment

I'm from the UK, and I agree with my brothers over the pond, let America keep her guns, Americans love their guns and the culture that surrounds it, its not my business nor do I really care to be honest because it has absolutely no direct effect upon me, my family or way of life.

I have not read every reply to this topic, but may I suggest those do gooder's from my neck of the woods spend more of their righteous energies looking at the problems facing our own country at the moment as oppossed to worrying about local events happening thousands of miles away

reply to post by thePharaoh


Automatic weapons and bazooka's are illegal. As for assault rifles, it depends on your definition. Some people define assault rifles as semi auto's. In that case a .22 would be outlawed. An a .22 is a practical firearm. So is a .223, I could go on but that's not the point. Alot of people that want guns banned, have little knowledge about weapons themselves. I absolutely believe if you have firearms than safety, security, and education should be practiced, as well as common sense. That would help keeping guns out of the hands of kids. But criminals, that's the one that's impossible. It's just a shame that you don't hear stories about responsible gun owners, only the criminal and irresponsible.

reply to post by regfenster


Amen. You are one smart Brit.

Originally posted by regfenster
but may I suggest those do gooder's from my neck of the woods spend more of their righteous energies looking at the problems facing our own country at the moment as oppossed to worrying about local events happening thousands of miles away

but there are degrees of problems

we dont have an issue with young men going into primary schools and killing a class...if we did, then t would not be a local event but a global one....these things are not in context with our way of life

BTW what problems do we have here???
bankers taking the P
government saying they have no money

these are man made scamming BS...and i have no "energies" to discuss daylight robbery by the private sector of public money....

or what about the weather....lol

bro, they have an issue that shouldnt exist...the communication war is being lost, by mass saturation

i dont care who or where you are...wrong is wrong, right is right
those children should be alive to enjoy christmaswith their families and the killer should have been intercepted long before...im sure there will be evidence of his cries for help

humans are all one big family...doesnt matter where you are

peace

BTW...dogooders...well if they stay silent...who will balance out the rhetoric from the baddoers?

reply to post by Fireman205253


You say why are other countries trying to impose something in your country just because its like that in their country?? Haven't the U.S been doing that for years? Just saying! And you are correct an assault weapon is by and large also known as an assault rifle which usually have a rate of fire selector ie single shot and rapid or like some single burst and rapid

reply to post by donniered


1. Grammar 2. You would buy a gun to be safe? Safe from what exactly? You do realise its not like the Wild West anymore you can't just carry your gun around anymore there's laws for that

reply to post by aka_angrygoose


Hey man if were up to me, we would only worry about ourselves. I wish the US would pull all military from all other countries. Then have them all state side and put them on the boarders. That way we can effectively stop people from getting in our country illegally. That in itself would stop alot of guns, drugs, and criminals from getting in the country. Not saying all drugs, guns, and criminals are coming from across the border. But there are alot coming across everyday, unchallenged.

reply to post by jimmiec


I'm sorry how many times have you been to the uk or kept abreast of current issues in our country every other month there is a crime reported of gun crime a few months ago a copper was shot as well as had a live he grenade thrown at her the only difference is we don't feel the need to keep weapons if such destructive nature in our homes to feel safe yes we have gangs yes we have cities massively over populated ie London Birmingham etc

reply to post by aka_angrygoose


Actually with a permit, you can carry a weapon around. In the rural areas it's not so much people you need to worry about, but wildlife. Do you think bears, coyotes, wolves, bobcats, cougars, etc. think about you having a gun before an attack. It's not like they say, hey he is unarmed so we wont attack him. Only people in rural American can understand, the dangers outside the city. Alot of America is rural, which is where hunting takes place. Another reason for firearms. Our hunting is probably more popular, than it is in other countries. I don't know that for sure, so I would be interested to find out from others.

Originally posted by citizenx1

Originally posted by Logos23
reply to post by Underworlds

 

No worries

No Australia isn't a part of the UK ....the UK consists of four countries England, Northern Ireland , Scotland and Wales and together they form the sovereign state of the United Kingdom.
I live in England...we have our own flag.....and I consider myself English first and foremost before I consider myself British.

Our passports don't.

I said I CONSIDERED myself to be English first and foremost...what it say's on my passport is irrelevant when one is talking about a subjective statement....

Originally posted by thePharaoh

Originally posted by regfenster
but may I suggest those do gooder's from my neck of the woods spend more of their righteous energies looking at the problems facing our own country at the moment as oppossed to worrying about local events happening thousands of miles away

but there are degrees of problems

we dont have an issue with young men going into primary schools and killing a class...if we did, then t would not be a local event but a global one....these things are not in context with our way of life

BTW what problems do we have here???
bankers taking the P
government saying they have no money

these are man made scamming BS...and i have no "energies" to discuss daylight robbery by the private sector of public money....

or what about the weather....lol

bro, they have an issue that shouldnt exist...the communication war is being lost, by mass saturation

i dont care who or where you are...wrong is wrong, right is right
those children should be alive to enjoy christmaswith their families and the killer should have been intercepted long before...im sure there will be evidence of his cries for help

humans are all one big family...doesnt matter where you are

peace

BTW...dogooders...well if they stay silent...who will balance out the rhetoric from the baddoers?

edit on 23-12-2012 by thePharaoh because: (no reason given)

As I mentioned per previous post, it is a local event, an American issue that needs to be addressed by those directly effected, that would be the American public, call me cold hearted but the recent shootings do not have no direct effect upon me, my country or my way of life. This in my opinion is not a international event with direct consequences for the world as a whole, thus a local issue.

I know at least in my part of the US, when concealed carry was instituted, gun violence dropped ..we used to have the occasional car jacking or mugging.. now it's almost unheard of because honestly you never know if the person is carrying or not.. so far less likely to risk it! ..other crimes still happen, people still go in and steal from stores by shoving stuff in their coat and running for it .. but you don't see many crimes involving weapons around here.. not like there was.

People IGNORE those things when a tragedy strikes and just think "OHMYGOD, GUNS! .. ban them!"

People tend to think that banning guns from law abiding citizens will some how prevent criminals from being criminals.. do you you think every one of those criminals have licenses for their weapons? most of the people who would be out there mugging or car jacking someone are probably repeat offenders who aren't legally allowed to own a gun anyway.. so there's not much logic in the debate.

reply to post by Alfie1


Well the riots the other year was a training exercise then?
People are becoming more desperate. It is as simple as that and more mentally ill.
I hope the crime figures are creeping down. No doubt the blackmarket provides anything you want.
Its always been like that, but we rarely get a madman running around with a gun killing indescrimiantely at people they don't
even know. Two wrongs don't make a right!

Originally posted by happinness
reply to post by Alfie1

 

Well the riots the other year was a training exercise then?
People are becoming more desperate. It is as simple as that and more mentally ill.
I hope the crime figures are creeping down. No doubt the blackmarket provides anything you want.
Its always been like that, but we rarely get a madman running around with a gun killing indescrimiantely at people they don't
even know. Two wrongs don't make a right!

So the solution should be to fix those issues... mentally ill need to be properly identified and helped.. the solution isn't to take away the guns from those who legally obtained them.. that's what you call a knee jerk reaction.. it's kind of like cutting off your arm to prevent a cut in your finger from getting infected and spreading to your body .. a bit of an overkill..

The CAUSES need to be fixed.. not the symptoms.. gun violence is a symptom

reply to post by thePharaoh


Your input is appreciated more than you know. To give you a better understanding of what is happening i will break it down. There is not simply one reason for the mass murders. Lets start with mental health. Years ago America could lock the mentally ill away under lock and key. That was abused so laws were passed that prevent us from doing that. Our streets are full of mentally ill people that do not want or think they need help.
Our media organizations bombard us 24/7 with violence because they make huge profits from it. They personalize it by interviewing the victims loved ones. They make the perpetrators famous for all time. The base instincts of man is violent in nature because early man had to be violent to survive. Hunting/self-preservation. The media/Hollywood take advantage of that fact by bombarding us with violence for huge profits. Yes, we crave it. That does not mean they should feed it to us. Our base instincts for violence should be suppressed instead, yet we feed it for profit. If they could put Naked Super Models on Trampolines on air every 5 minutes they would.
Gangs run rampant throughout America. Probably half of them are from Mexico and undocumented illegal aliens. If they commit a crime they are usually just deported instead of prosecuted. They then just come right back under a different name. A lot of these gangs require new members to kill someone in order to be a member. No doubt they will pick grandma or someone equally helpless. Irregardless they have guns and will laugh at a gun ban. They would in fact start selling guns for huge profits. Law abiding citizens should be able to protect themselves.
The music in America today for a large portion of our youth is rap music. Rap music consists in large part of killing,drugs,rape and murder and glorifies violence. Hollywood figured out that the more violence they can pack into a movie the more money they will make. So the movies are rife with violence.
We stopped paddling our kids at home and in school about 20 years ago. We lied to our kids when they lost a ball game and gave them all trophies and told them they won. We slowed the teaching/learning process in schools so that the slow learners could keep up and feel good about themselves. Leaving brilliant minds that could learn faster to languish in boredom and despair. Our kids lack the ability to cope with losing because we did not allow them to lose. We throw them to the wolves when they graduate without that mechanism. They think they are the answer to the worlds problems until they get smacked upside the head with reality.
So, guns are really and truly not the problem. They may use guns to achieve the goal of payback for whatever grievance they perceive but they would find other means to accomplish it if they did not have a gun. They could get a gun irregardless if we banned guns i assure you. Probably much quicker than if they bought one legally.

reply to post by thePharaoh


So let me get this straight.

By your logic it's the guns that are acting as the catalyst for these mass shootings?

That's astonishing. Really.

Originally posted by Underworlds
It is amazing how gun control advocates in foreign nations such as the U.K. beleive they have the solution for America's problems as they relate to gun crime and violence here. After relinquishing their own firearms in a futile attempt to end gun violence in the U.K., news reports cite statistics that gun crime in England and Wales "soared by 35% last year".

Link: Gun Crime Soars in England Where Guns Are Banned

That news article is dated only a week ago! "Handguns have been used in 46% more offences". How is this possible in a country where guns are outlawed?

Could it be that in outlawing firearms in the U.K. the law-abiding citizen surrendered their means of defense, the criminal element saw their weakness, and there was now little if anything that anyone could do to prevent these crimes from happening?

There are quite a few ATS members from the U.K. spouting off at the mouth as to how great things will be in the United States if we were to ban firearms here... if we were to abolish the Second Amendment rights which we all hold as dear to us as we do the very right to live. Maybe it would be prudent if these friends from the U.K. cleaned up their own back yards first before telling us Americans how we should live our lives.

What you say may all be true.
Its also true that we tend to have fewer massacres than in the States and our last one which led to the deaths of very young children bought in tighter gun controls, conversely, the States will do sod all to even make a dent in their gun problem because you have an extremely powerful pro gun lobby. Thats just the way it is.
Our gun problems stem from the break up of Communism and the Balkan wars. It is well known that many of the guns that have been used on the streets of the UK have originated from Eastern Europe. It would be fair to say that we alone are not the only recipients in Europe of these weapons.
It would also be true to state that, despite recent killings of Police officers ( who still go in to dangerous situations unarmed) and the deaths of "innocent" citizens, there is NO will to arm the police and NO will to allow the public to arm themselves. Two wrongs wont make a right, ok?
Having read and contributed to a whole plethora of threads pertaining to the massacre, gun crime and the like on this forum over the last week, im bound to say that, ultimately,I dont give a toss if you all kill yourselves or turn every school, mall, college and residential street into one big Dodge city where the good guys live under the protection of sheriffs, volunteers or vigillanties. The fact will remain that the attrocity you have just faced WILL happen again, and again, and again. FACT.
America will do what it wants, it always has and it always will. The UK has its own social problems to deal with and, apart from the natural horror it felt when this tragedy occoured and its natural empathy and concern for the families who have suffered, we dont actually care THAT much.
We are fully aware that the USA listens to nobody, not even its own concience and, to that end, if it wont help itself then nobody else can.
That may all sound harsh but its a life thing. Comparing our ( UKs) crime rates and gun crime to yours is a nonsense and comes across as a desperate attempt to justify arming every US man woman and child ( yes child) with a gun "just in case".
OP, you and your country can plough your own furrow and we shall plough ours. My country isnt what it was and it will never be again but, by God, i know which country id rather be living in.
Horses for courses and all that.

Originally posted by LFN69

Originally posted by Underworlds
It is amazing how gun control advocates in foreign nations such as the U.K. beleive they have the solution for America's problems as they relate to gun crime and violence here. After relinquishing their own firearms in a futile attempt to end gun violence in the U.K., news reports cite statistics that gun crime in England and Wales "soared by 35% last year".

Link: Gun Crime Soars in England Where Guns Are Banned

That news article is dated only a week ago! "Handguns have been used in 46% more offences". How is this possible in a country where guns are outlawed?

Could it be that in outlawing firearms in the U.K. the law-abiding citizen surrendered their means of defense, the criminal element saw their weakness, and there was now little if anything that anyone could do to prevent these crimes from happening?

There are quite a few ATS members from the U.K. spouting off at the mouth as to how great things will be in the United States if we were to ban firearms here... if we were to abolish the Second Amendment rights which we all hold as dear to us as we do the very right to live. Maybe it would be prudent if these friends from the U.K. cleaned up their own back yards first before telling us Americans how we should live our lives.

What you say may all be true.

Actually none of the claims made in the OP were true.....but I don't believe the OP meant to purposely post untruths but he was miss informed.

reply to post by Alfie1

I really don't see how you read all that into the 2nd amendment. The obvious meaning of the words is that well regulated militias could be useful in protecting newly won independence.

There's some discussion of this in the federalist papers.

In any case, it still elicits interest that after the 1st amendment, the one which insures citizens to basic civil rights, the very next topic of concern was the right to bear arms. Regardless of the founding fathers take on this amendment, it can be readily seen how the right to bear arms defends the individual from the encroachments of an ambitious government. So long as 60 million Americans possess firearms, the government is curtailed in what legislation they are able to pass without provoking serious civil public backlash.

There are far too many examples from history of this. Further, there are no governments in historical memory which ennoble the individual as the US constitution does. One could say it's the metaphysical subtext of the entire document. Hence, in normal history, only governments possessed the right to bear arms, but in America, the authors of the constitution sought to diffuse the power of firearms by spreading them amongst the citizenry, which in effect dilutes the power of the central authority.

Time hasn't changed this. Types of weaponry only somewhat modifies it (For example, proscribing private ownership of grenade launchers and other high explosives). The US constitution is the only document I know of that addresses man as man. It takes an extremely cautious and skeptical attitude towards him. He isn't to be trusted with too much political power lest the social and cultural aims of one group (say, highly liberal atheists) be imposed on the majority.

The constitution is a BRILLIANT document. It's central interest is to protect the individual from the tyranny of the majority. The 2nd amendment assists in this.

Now, as for the newtown shooting. Heres some suggestions I have. Adam Lanza had serious mental problems. His mother, an apparent gun enthusiast, was Adam's main guardian. It seems to me that not only should the mentally ill be prevented from owning guns, but those people who live with people who are mentally ill should be limited not only in the types of guns they can own, but should also be forced to take extra precaution in the safekeeping of their guns.. How did Adam access his mothers guns? Did his mother share her interest with him? These are the underlying issues which led to the shootings. If his mother had inculcated her interest in private, had not allowed Adam to become "enamoured" with guns and the military, and had properly safeguarded her guns, this wouldn't have happened. So, I don't think stricter gun laws or putting armed guards in schools is the answer. Rather, stricter screening processes, not only on the purchasers individual history, but in their current relationships; if they happen to be closely connected with someone with a history of mental illness, they should be admonished as to what extra precautions they should take with these individuals.

Additionally, games like GTA, etc, certainly serve to desensitize and glorify violence. How this can be ignored, while the issue of physical guns is targeted, is a bit like blaming the car for hydroplaning and not the icy roads.

reply to post by dontreally


His mother had trouble bonding with him. He did not wish to be physically touched which is the case with some mentally ill. She found that he liked guns so they bonded by going to the shooting range together. Guns turned into his passion and his mother embraced it because it helped her bond with him.