Will, We the People Succumb To The Assault Of Our Second Amendment Right?

reply to post by RedmoonMWC


Lol, you guys will destroy yourselves and TPTB will simply come in and wipe up the bloody mess. Besides you mention nothing about the legality of these items.

reply to post by 1littlewolf


In America we have home invasions and there have been more than a few occasions where it has turned violent. Maybe you guys are just lucky.

Hmmm lets see.......Google........Hmmm........Ehhem.....Ermm.....Tsk Tsk..

www.telegraph.co.uk... tml
Nope you guys have the same problem. Too bad they didn’t have a pistol or a shotgun they probably wouldn’t have had bleeding on the brain or skull fractures.

What else .......Eww.....Its bad....OMG.....Poor girl.....I had no idea.
www.abc.net.au...
au.news.yahoo.com...
www.hotheadlines.com.au...
I see what giving up your guns has done. It has made you all easy targets. The more I look into it the more the statistics and facts show that a weapons ban has been a huge mistake on your part.


I tell you this much if meth or bath salts catches on in your country you guys will probably be changing the laws for home defense. It is a bad problem here in poorer states. My grandmother lives in Arkansas and I go out there twice a year a little hunting and fishing but you have to be weary because you can walk up on a lab fairly easy. So much wooded land out there it’s easy to hide a trailer.

Hmmm lets see somthing.....When did you guys ban guns? Lets see..2002.
www.aic.gov.au...
AUSTRALIA: MORE VIOLENT CRIME DESPITE GUN BAN
It looks like violent crime and sexual assault has risen in your country

•In 2006, assault rose 49.2 percent and robbery 6.2 percent.
•Sexual assault -- Australia's equivalent term for rape -- increased 29.9 percent.
•Overall, Australia's violent crime rate rose 42.2 percent.

Anyway facts are facts. I guess this has been the reason no one from the anti-gun camp has tried to present evidence to support their position. Usually when someone has a strong case you see them post links graphs and quotes.

You guys do not even boarder a third world country. You are secluded and as a nation without any outside pressure have shown without a doubt baning guns hasn’t effected murder rates and since doing so crime has risen in some cases doubled. Yet in America we relaxed the laws and crime including murder has dropped.

I am sorry but you haven’t provided any evidence to support banning guns. You are solely motivated by your disdain for them and your entire position is only backed by emotion. You have helped me realize that banning guns would be a huge mistake. Facts and evidence can sway me not emotion.

Your gun ban did nothing to drop the murder rate yet your crime rate jumped 46%.

I have had to use my gun twice and you find it unusual or completely ignore it. Fine here is hard data.


The above graph is for the US after restrictions on CC were losened the below graph well you figure it out.


These graphs are clear info.

This video shows that you are just plain wrong. These are your countrymen and women stating that.

Message from your coutrymen and women

Sure doesn’t look like a gun ban changed anything for the murder rate in your country. But your crime rate has skyrocketed.
BTW here is the graph you decided to not show.

And a quote from it

The number of murder victims fluctuated slightly from 1993 to 2007, whereas manslaughter remained relatively stable.

I like how you left that out. My case is simple banning guns in your country has spurred a crime spree you do not even have the illegal immigration problem we have being bordered with a third world nation your murder rate has remain stable dating back to 1993 it has only worked to embolden criminals who do not follow the law and could care less about gun bans.

You can still obtain illegal firearms in your country I have even heard your countrymen state that there is a problem with gun running there. The US being bordered to Mexico means that there will always be a flow of weapons into this country illegally. We can’t stop the drugs from coming in it would be idiotic to think we could stop them from bringing guns. A weapons ban here would do nothing to lower crime your country has proven that. It would probably cut down on mass shootings but if history has taught us anything a killer will only switch methods like this one.

www.abovetopsecret.com...



No one should be at the mercy of criminals but that is the path your country has chosen we have learned from your mistakes and will not repeat them.

Something does need to be done about these killers as for the schools we have already taken steps to employ armed guards which will at least provide some protection many schools have had them for decades almost all inner city already do. The other issue we need to tackle is the mental health system there is no doubt it is substandard and needs to be fixed. At least two of the shooting could have been prevented by a proper mental health system.

What we will not due is surrender our means to protect our families or resist a tyrannical government. It will not happen. No one has provided a logical sane reason to do so. Anyone trying to change our minds without solid statistical reason is simply wasting their time. America views the gun ban in Australia as a failure.Americans will not make the same mistake.
www.aic.gov.au...
BTW just as a note people around here have accused me as being a liberal. Actually I am independent my views are not in line with either party but it should give you an idea of just how impossible it would be to get Americans to accept any kind of gun ban.

reply to post by 1littlewolf

you make a valid point or two, however, when you state this ...

when dealing with a nation-wide problem

i have to ask, what nation-wide problem ???

perhaps when you can define that then perhaps we can discuss a solution.
until a "problem" can be identified, there is no need for a solution.

you want to deter gun violence ?
eliminate gun free zones.

need an example ? see Vermont ... and their "safest state" awards.
or Kennesaw, GA or several other regions in America.

when you can provide evidence of a "nation-wide" problem, then you might have an argument, until then, it's nonsense.

ETA -- the only real concern that any country, including ours (US) should be considering is the simple fact that the greatest amount of violent crime (with or without a gun) occurs in GUN FREE ZONES, period.
this can be proven with almost every massacre regardless the country of origin.

guns are not going to go away but gun free zones certainly should.

reply to post by Grimpachi


Hey Grimpachi,
sorry for the delayed reply but the new year’s been pretty busy for me. Hope you had a great Xmas/NYE btw.

Originally posted by Grimpachi
reply to post by 1littlewolf

 

In America we have home invasions and there have been more than a few occasions where it has turned violent. Maybe you guys are just lucky.
Hmmm lets see.......Google........Hmmm........Ehhem.....Ermm.....Tsk Tsk..
www.telegraph.co.uk... tml
Nope you guys have the same problem. Too bad they didn’t have a pistol or a shotgun they probably wouldn’t have had bleeding on the brain or skull fractures.
What else .......Eww.....Its bad....OMG.....Poor girl.....I had no idea.
www.abc.net.au...
au.news.yahoo.com...
www.hotheadlines.com.au...
I see what giving up your guns has done. It has made you all easy targets. The more I look into it the more the statistics and facts show that a weapons ban has been a huge mistake on your part.
I tell you this much if meth or bath salts catches on in your country you guys will probably be changing the laws for home defense. It is a bad problem here in poorer states. My grandmother lives in Arkansas and I go out there twice a year a little hunting and fishing but you have to be weary because you can walk up on a lab fairly easy. So much wooded land out there it’s easy to hide a trailer.

Meth has been in Australia for at least 2 decades now and bath salts are here too, but the difference is our addicts aren’t robbing people with guns. I’ve never denied we have crime, but one thing you’ll notice about all those (once again one off) examples you’ve posted above is that nobody ended up dead. I can imagine a very different outcome if guns were involved.

I think the key thing we arguing about here, and something you seem to completely overlook is we’re talking about the very high number of murders and/or accidental deaths in the United States when compared to other westernized nations and how the massive amount of guns within the wider community as a whole contributes to this problem

All the stats about burglaries or assaults won’t change the fact that your firearm murder rate, your suicide by gun rate and your accidental shooting rate (which as I posted earlier is four times the rate of intruders shot) are all so incredibly high in comparison to any other western nation it’s beyond a joke. Once again I ask you what else do you think would be the main contributor to these problems if not for the ease of availability of guns in the United States?

Hmmm lets see somthing.....When did you guys ban guns? Lets see..2002.
www.aic.gov.au...
AUSTRALIA: MORE VIOLENT CRIME DESPITE GUN BAN
It looks like violent crime and sexual assault has risen in your country

•In 2006, assault rose 49.2 percent and robbery 6.2 percent.
•Sexual assault -- Australia's equivalent term for rape -- increased 29.9 percent.
•Overall, Australia's violent crime rate rose 42.2 percent.

Again I’m not denying we have crime, nor am I denying that various types are a little higher than yours…. But again, nobodies dying here. There’s been two occasions where someone’s tried to rob me. The first time I punched the guy in the face and moved on, the second time I just walked off. I’ve been assaulted before as well, mainly in pubs though.

Anyway facts are facts. I guess this has been the reason no one from the anti-gun camp has tried to present evidence to support their position. Usually when someone has a strong case you see them post links graphs and quotes.

I have done nothing but present concrete facts which are actually related to what the issue is which is far more than anyone else on this thread. This is the first time you’ve given me anything to work with at all except personal accounts and random news articles; and most of what you’ve posted really doesn’t have a lot to do with the issue at hand namely people dying from due to firearms. Also every point you’ve raised I’ve addressed yet you only seem to selectively pick various paragraphs of mine to respond to.

You guys do not even boarder a third world country. You are secluded and as a nation without any outside pressure have shown without a doubt banning guns hasn’t effected murder rates and since doing so crime has risen in some cases doubled. Yet in America we relaxed the laws and crime including murder has dropped.

Papua New Guinea is our nearest neighbor (only 7 miles off the coast off the Torres Straight Islands) and it’s far less developed than Mexico. In fact its capital Port Moresby is one of the top 10 most dangerous cities in the world. Our other neighbor is Indonesia (again only 70 miles away), also a third world country and also the largest Muslim country in the world. Personally I would feel safer bordering Mexico. I also do not believe Mexico has much do with your crime rates for if this were the case then one would expect Texas and Arizona do lead the States in the crime stats. This is of course not the case for the states which have the highest crime rates, although located in the South are not bordering Mexico but are probably the poorest states in the US. This shows the reasons for your crime is largely internal and probably has very little if anything to do with your proximity to Mexico. As pointed out in an earlier post there are other westernized countries which border far nastier countries than Mexico and still have lower murder rates (and crime rates overall) than you guys.

As you can see here the states with the highest murder rates do not border Mexico at all
libertarianhome.co.uk...


Below you can see that the 3 cities with the highest murder rates are nowhere at all near Mexico.



And as you like to blur the lines between general crime and murder by firearm let’s have a look at that…

As you can see apart from New Mexico (which still isn’t even the highest) the states with the highest crime rates do not border Mexico at all.



en.wikipedia.org...

All of this above shows that Mexico has very little if anything to do with the very high firearm murder rates in the US. This again is also supported by the fact that there are many other countries out there bordering far nastier countries than Mexico which still have far lower murder/crime rates than you guys.

I am sorry but you haven’t provided any evidence to support banning guns. You are solely motivated by your disdain for them and your entire position is only backed by emotion. You have helped me realize that banning guns would be a huge mistake. Facts and evidence can sway me not emotion.

I have presented fact after logic after fact wholly supported and which you’ve chosen to ignore and then presented me with skewed personal accounts, a few random news stories and a bunch of stats that either have nothing to do with the immediate issue or have been misinterpreted (see below). I don’t have a disdain for guns per se I have a disdain for them being used to murder innocents. You cannot deny this happens at a much higher rate in the United States than any other westernized country. You also cannot deny that America has the highest rate of gun ownership in the entire world. So if not for the availability of guns in your country then what I ask again is causing so many people in your country to get shot?

Your gun ban did nothing to drop the murder rate yet your crime rate jumped 46%.

Wrong. From the very page you source in your 2nd post (the Australian Institute of Criminology) it says

Over the past 18 years the rate of homicide has decreased from 1.9 (per 100,000 I think) in 1990-91 and 1992-93 to the second lowest ever rate of 1.3 in 2006-07

It’s embarrassing mistakes like these one gets when you go try chasing facts from websites with an agenda to push. Also you’re comparing murder rates with just general crime which is like apples and oranges. Again I do not deny we have crime, and the main reason for it increasing is because of drugs and alcohol. But a few drunken punch ups or the odd burglary is a far cry from being shot.

I have had to use my gun twice and you find it unusual or completely ignore it. Fine here is hard data.

I’ve hung with some pretty subpar crowds in my time which were involved in various crimes and saw a little high level gangster action. Only one person ever I saw carried a gun. I do not know ANYONE who has ever had a gunned pulled on them or indeed has ever found themselves in a situation in which they needed one. The fact that you’ve had to use yours twice and then think that this is somehow normal is actually a little scary.

The above graph is for the US after restrictions on CC were loosened the below graph well you figure it out.

Got it figured. You guys still have the highest rate of gun related deaths in the western world and you still have no explanation for this. A source for this graph would also be appreciated.

These graphs are clear info.

Again you’re comparing a crime completely unrelated to guns at all and trying to convince me this proves anything. For better or worse I’d far more rather be burgled than shot.

This video shows that you are just plain wrong. These are your countrymen and women stating that.
Message from your coutrymen and women

edit on 27-12-2012 by Grimpachi because: (no reason given)

The video if you’d actually watched it is not only sensationalist but is mainly full of whingers lamenting the fact they had to give there daddy’s guns away. It has very little crime related info in it and is sadly quite out of date.

Originally posted by Grimpachi
Sure doesn’t look like a gun ban changed anything for the murder rate in your country. But your crime rate has skyrocketed.
BTW here is the graph you decided to not show.

And a quote from it

The number of murder victims fluctuated slightly from 1993 to 2007, whereas manslaughter remained relatively stable.

I like how you left that out.

It pays to actually look at the graphs closely and read the information accompanying it in full rather than quickly skimming it to try and cherry pick various quotes that seem to support your cause.

The graphs show overall that both murder and manslaughter are down overall since the 2002 gun restrictions were put in place. Fluctuations obviously happen but look at the graph man. The lines at the end of both manslaughter and murder are plunging DOWN. I must have missed that one otherwise I would actually have used it in my prior post. Cheers for posting it for me.

My case is simple banning guns in your country has spurred a crime spree you do not even have the illegal immigration problem we have being bordered with a third world nation your murder rate has remain stable dating back to 1993 it has only worked to embolden criminals who do not follow the law and could care less about gun bans.

You can still obtain illegal firearms in your country I have even heard your countrymen state that there is a problem with gun running there. The US being bordered to Mexico means that there will always be a flow of weapons into this country illegally. We can’t stop the drugs from coming in it would be idiotic to think we could stop them from bringing guns. A weapons ban here would do nothing to lower crime your country has proven that.

My case is even simpler. More guns overall = more innocent people getting shot. I really don’t see how you can gloss over this fact and pretend it’s not the case. It’s as simple as 1+1=2.

We have a massive illegal immigration problem here so I’m not sure why you think we don’t. It’s actually one of our biggest political issues currently in the media. We border two third world countries worse than Mexico and our population is small so we’re far less able to cope with the trouble that comes along with that. But yet I’m not blaming either of them for our crime issues. Please post any reliable (that is impartial) data which indicates your country’s proximity to Mexico is a significant causal factor in the high amount of deaths by firearm which you have. And then tell how arming every single citizen is somehow a better solution than effective border control. The fact that you feel the need to arm yourselves because of Mexico indicates to me either paranoia or a government which has completely lost control of its borders.

In fact please show me how arming every single citizen actually decreases the death by firearm rate because to me its like saying if we give every kid a box of matches will somehow decrease the rate of people getting burnt.

Your information about gun violence increasing after restrictions were put in place is so wrong it’s not funny and this has been proven by your own link.

It would probably cut down on mass shootings but if history has taught us anything a killer will only switch methods like this one.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Really…. 1947. Don’t look too far back otherwise we’ll start hitting the civil war era and then you might actually have a case worth arguing.

No one should be at the mercy of criminals but that is the path your country has chosen we have learned from your mistakes and will not repeat them.

Our crime rates are hardly out of control in comparison to yours. Here’s a fantastic impartial website which compares our two countries crime wise.

www.nationmaster.com...

As you can see even with non-gun related crimes the US hardly comes out smelling like roses. But this is not what we’re discussing here. Here’s some of the more relevant facts. Feel free to look yourself and find anything on this website which proves me wrong.

Gun violence: The US is 142 times worse than Australia.
Murders committed by youths: The US is 92 times worse than Australia
Murders with firearms: The US is 158 times worse than Australia

So just by living in the States you’re 158 times more likely to get shot than if you were to visit Australia. And you still think we have the problem?

Here’s another interesting stat from the same site

Perception of Safety – walking in the dark. Australia ranked 14th in the world, America ranked 2nd

You see what this says… you think guns are making your lives safer, but yet I’m 158 times more likely to be killed in the US than Australia. As I’ve already said you guys hold on to your guns like a lethal security blanket yet in the end their presence only makes your country a far worse place to live.

Something does need to be done about these killers as for the schools we have already taken steps to employ armed guards which will at least provide some protection many schools have had them for decades almost all inner city already do. The other issue we need to tackle is the mental health system there is no doubt it is substandard and needs to be fixed. At least two of the shooting could have been prevented by a proper mental health system.

The issue here is that you need armed guards in your schools in the first place. Take away the ease at which these kids access weapons. How many guns did Adam Lanza’s mom have? I’m pretty sure it was around 11. This is just ridiculous and yet you have been conditioned to think this is normal. See you seem to exist in a black and white world where there are goodies and baddies and this simply isn’t the case. Good people go bad all the time. Security checks mean nothing if a criminal has never been caught. As for mental health well yes I agree however few of these mass shooter kids ever displayed serious mental health issues prior to blasting away the lives of their fellow class mates. What are you going to do, ban emos from owning guns?

What we will not due is surrender our means to protect our families or resist a tyrannical government. It will not happen. No one has provided a logical sane reason to do so. Anyone trying to change our minds without solid statistical reason is simply wasting their time. America views the gun ban in Australia as a failure. Americans will not make the same mistake.
www.aic.gov.au...

edit on 28-12-2012 by Grimpachi because: (no reason given)

BTW just as a note people around here have accused me as being a liberal.

Actually I am independent my views are not in line with either party but it should give you an idea of just how impossible it would be to get Americans to accept any kind of gun ban.

edit on 28-12-2012 by Grimpachi because: add

Look, I completely understand wanting to protect one’s family. Heck if I lived somewhere where the murder rate was 158 times that of Australia I’d probably want a gun too. But this fear is only compounding the problem as everybody arms up which only increase the amount of guns which could fall into the wrong hands. Look around at the customers next time you do a panic stock up at your local gun store. Would you trust each and every one of them to remain law abiding citizens for the rest of their lives? Would you even trust that every single one of them is currently a law abiding citizen? I would hope not.

I’m not sure where you think I’m coming from Grimpachi, but all I’m doing is seeing a problem, and seeing the main contributing factor. Seriously I believe your country currently has a lot of problems and this whole gun issue is distracting you guys from dealing with them in an effective way.

Read again how the gun restrictions have worked in Australia. No one believes that even a majority of the newly restricted guns were surrendered. But the ones that remain are hidden and effectively removed from circulation. And you have a seriously hard time getting bullets for them. Essentially it removes them out of reach from your everyday mugger, drug addict, or your anxty teenager with a chip on his shoulder who by far cause the most gun related murders in the US. As for gangs, hey we’ve got them too. And they’re all armed as well. But their guns are mainly used against other gangs or police. They aren’t randomly blowing away innocent citizens for no reason and I’m pretty sure that’s not happening on your side of the globe either. Even having a gun in the home is more hazardous than not owning one as the accidental shooting rate in households with guns is 4 times that of the rate at which guns are drawn on intruders. The teen suicide rate for households with guns is 31 times that of non-gun owning households. This only demonstrates how good people can do crazy things with guns in the heat of the moment because they’re readily available, quick and painless.

en.wikipedia.org...

As for tyrannical governments, well this is a little ludicrous but at the rate in which your rights are being eroded (the ones that count at least - I do not think it should be anyone’s right to carry an instrument solely designed to kill is a right anyone should have) are being away maybe you do have a case. Take note however that the gun debate/outcry is far far louder than the outcry which occurred when your government introduced indefinite detention policy without trial for its own citizens. The government will probably let you keep your guns cos it doesn’t care about them. It could blow all of you away in a few seconds with just the press of a button, guns or no guns. It already controls you and as long as you have your false security blankets you won’t ever step up and take real action. Also, there are such things as peaceful revolutions. Look at India, Iceland, most countries in the former Soviet block. They did it peacefully. People don’t realize how much power they actually have when they come together. Guns create a society of fear, and when one lives in fear one is more easily controlled.



All I’m asking is to think in terms of the bigger picture, or how what kind of society do you want to live in. One where nearly everyone is armed, or one where almost no one is armed. One where if very few burglars or muggers carry guns and armed guards aren’t needed to be stationed in schools, or one where the complete opposite is true. If you want things to change for the better you have to look beyond just your immediate fears and wants for as it stands at the moment most of you cannot see the forest for the trees.

Originally posted by Honor93
reply to post by 1littlewolf

 

you make a valid point or two, however, when you state this ...

when dealing with a nation-wide problem

i have to ask, what nation-wide problem ???

perhaps when you can define that then perhaps we can discuss a solution.
until a "problem" can be identified, there is no need for a solution.

you want to deter gun violence ?
eliminate gun free zones.

need an example ? see Vermont ... and their "safest state" awards.
or Kennesaw, GA or several other regions in America.

when you can provide evidence of a "nation-wide" problem, then you might have an argument, until then, it's nonsense.

ETA -- the only real concern that any country, including ours (US) should be considering is the simple fact that the greatest amount of violent crime (with or without a gun) occurs in GUN FREE ZONES, period.
this can be proven with almost every massacre regardless the country of origin.

guns are not going to go away but gun free zones certainly should.

edit on 28-12-2012 by Honor93 because: ETA

If you look back I'm pretty sure I've said something about this before in this thread. Gun free zones within a country completely saturated with guns is one of the stupidist idea I've ever heard. If you want to make a real difference it cannot be be in select areas or with select gruops. It has to be everywhere and incude everyone.

reply to post by 1littlewolf

Gun free zones within a country completely saturated with guns is one of the stupidist idea I've ever heard. If you want to make a real difference it cannot be be in select areas or with select gruops. It has to be everywhere and incude everyone.

which is exactly why all 'gun free zones' should be eliminated, everywhere (in the US anyway) ... and clealy, you agree