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Originally posted by ajay59
What I have a hard time understanding is, why would someone in another country be so bent on our disarmament? Maybe they are not who they claim to be or where they claim to be from? One more time for the slow learners.
As I have stated before, as long as there are those with the ability to do harm with guns, I will retain the ability to stop them with guns! Truly, if you are able to convince those in power to relinquish their weapons, you may have a chance of convincing the rest of America to lay down their weapons. Come back and let us know when this has been accomplished, (with undeniable proof), of coarse!
That is fairly well cut and dried!
Originally posted by Grimpachi
reply to post by 1littlewolf
Here is where your argument falls apart. Less guns means less gun deaths but does it mean less deaths if those statistics are not substantially different then it only means killers found a different way to kill.
Do you know how many crimes are stopped by legal gun owners? I have had to use mine twice. I can say with a degree of certainty if I hadn’t that at least one person would have been killed by a person wielding a knife the other instance was when my wife was attacked in both instances I was justified in using my gun.
My other question was if your country bordered to a third world nation. If not your countries situation is not comparable to ours.
If you are trying to convince me to give up the defense of my family you need to show better info. Your graph is extremely skewed it doesn’t even have Mexico on there.edit on 24-12-2012 by Grimpachi because: (no reason given)
If you could show me statistics proving that immediately after a country banned guns that murder and crime dropped by any noticeable amount then it would be worth considering however it has been my understanding that the reality is the opposite has come to be true.
Furthermore there are cities here in the states that have passed laws where every home legally has a firearm and the citizens overwhelmingly carry concealed firearms and the statistics have shown those cities to be the safest in the nation and violent crime as well as theft like burglary to be near nonexistent so the logical conclusion is a well-armed populace is much safer than a disarmed one. If you have factual data that disputes that I ask you to please post it.
The graph you show there is near worthless in my opinion because it only shows what tool has been used in murders it does not indicate anything other than that.
Originally posted by ajay59
reply to post by 1littlewolf
Something you need to realize is that your country is on that chart. This means you still have gun violence. Just suppose upon the next printing of that chart you, a family member or even a close friend are included on that chart(heaven forbid). Just how important are them numbers going to be to you, or a family member or even a friend? Think deeply about that and you might be able to understand why we are who we are.
Originally posted by Grimpachi
The point is I had to use my gun twice which is hard data as far as I am concerned. Most crimes that are stopped by legal gun owners go unreported. I have flashed my gun more than I care to remember in areas like Miami where the would be muggers decided I wasn’t worth it. Many others will tell you the same thing. A ban wouldn’t take guns off the streets and the only people that would turn them in are the people who already abide by the law.
My point about the graph is this. If someone is murdered does it really matter how they were murdered the end result is the same. The worst school massacre in US history was done using explosives which are not hard to make from my own experience. Where there is a will there is a way.
One of the countries that you brought up as an example is South Korea which I was stationed at for a year and a half. It isn’t bordered to a first world nation so I am not sure how that compares but there is quite a bit of violence just not as deadly. I have seen a few people killed there but gangs pretty much extort the people and they do have guns. It has a huge military presence with checkpoints all through the country and people will sometimes just disappear. It isn’t a good example to compare.
Mexico is a good reason for us to remain armed drugs, guns, gangs, and all that comes with it flow across the border daily. Those that live near the border have to defend against this element daily. If those people were not armed there would be nothing stopping that element from home invasions. It still happens on occasion but imagine if people knew they weren’t armed. Being shot at from across the border is a daily occurrence and from what my uncle has said you don’t leave the house without being armed because he has on several occasions come across smugglers on his property. Couple that with the gangs set up in the states and illegal grow operations and the fact is it just isn’t safe.
I am sure if the UK was bordered to Mexico they would be as heavily armed as we are.
Well the data that satisfy me or persuade me is if you could show that after a nation disarmed that crime fell.
A murder is a murder to me I don’t care how it was done. From the numbers I have seen crime actually went up immediately following a disarmament which is unacceptable the medicine in those cases is worse than the disease.
Here in my own country the cities and states that have the strictest regulations on firearms are some of the most dangerous. The places where guns are banned are murder capitols now. So all the statistics have actually pointed to the fact that a disarmed citizenry is worse off than a legally armed one.
For whatever reason you seem to have been exposed to much more potential violence than what I gather the average US citizen has, but the point I made above still stands. You cannot factor in individual experiences when dealing with a nation-wide problem. The fact you’ve had these experience in my opinion makes you less able to view the situation from a non-biased point of view and your first sentence above only goes to prove this.
Murder and violence are far more easily committed with a gun than any other hand-held weapon. Obviously there are deeper issues as to why the US is such a violent place in comparison to other first world countries but the ease of available weapons certainly doesn’t help this situation. It is my opinion that because owning and using a gun has become so normalized in US society it actually blinds you to the harm that having a society completely saturated with guns is causing.
Yeah South Korea probably isn’t the best example but that still leave quite a few other countries on that list.
I’m sorry but third hand information from your uncle just doesn’t cut it. I need some sort of hard data if this discussion is to progress. But even if what you say is completely true there are much better solutions against the Mexico problem than simply arming every citizen of the United States with a gun.
I have, please check my above post to you.
I keep here this statement yet no one seems to be providing any data to back up these claims. And until this happens I am simply going to dismiss this clam as NRA propaganda.
Again a little hard data would be nice, but this claim I do actually believe. The problem here is creating ‘gun free zones’ within a country saturated with guns is paramount to a bad joke. If you want to implement an effective solution it has to be done on a nationwide basis.
Originally posted by 1littlewolf
Originally posted by sconner755
reply to post by hounddoghowlie
The founders simply acknowledged the obvious -it is an inalienable right of all people to defend their life. As the power of weapons has increased, the need to have equally powerful weapons for self-defense is even more important, not less. A ban on weapons that level the playing field is going to lead to a powerless society.
So let me know when you're able to buy nukes and rocket launchers. Also I've always wanted one of those unmanned drones. That would be fun...
There are downsides to owning guns illegally. The big one, from my perspective, was that I couldn’t go shooting at a range. The folks at the Westside Rifle and Pistol Range probably had as dim a view of permits and registration as I do, but they weren’t about to risk their own freedom just to let me put a few holes in paper targets. So I applied for a permit to purchase a .45-caliber Model 1911 and keep it at home. The sales clerk at the gun shop was helpful—he should have been. I paid a premium to have my paperwork submitted to the proper city paper-pushers by experts retained by the store. Although the term was never used, I assumed that meant the store made use of New York City’s peculiar breed of middlemen known as “expediters” to get the permit processed. Eternally controversial, expediters are known for their detailed knowledge of the city’s byzantine regulatory procedures, their working relationships with bureaucrats, and their willingness to grease palms to make sure clients are given favorable consideration.
Even so, I waited. And I waited. And I finally blew my stack.
As the saying goes, I knew a guy who knew a guy. It took an email, a phone call, and a friendly meeting, and for less than 300 bucks, I was the proud owner of a semi-automatic variant of an AK-47—the famed assault rifle of the old Soviet bloc and of guerrilla fighters everywhere. It was legal in much of the United States, but strictly verboten in New York City.
Such connections can be found elsewhere in the world, too. Flush with money made satisfying Americans’ appetite for intoxicants out of favor with U.S. government officials, Mexico’s drug gangs have eagerly armed themselves, the better to squabble with one another—and to battle the police and even the army. While popular mythology blames the flow of guns to Mexico on purchases in America’s legal weapons markets (Mexico has tight restrictions on private firearms ownership, including outright bans on guns in calibers used by the military), the gangs have increasingly fielded grenades, rockets and machine guns—firepower unavailable in the average Texas gun shop.
So, by imposing restrictions on one type of product, governments have driven people to the black market where all forbidden products and services are available, and likely increased the wealth and power of active sellers in that market. If you were trying to enrich and empower the folks who thrive beyond the reaches of polite society, you couldn’t come up with a better plan. Hmmm … but those guns come from somewhere, right? Before black marketeers turn them into illicit commodities to be sold alongside coc aine and tax-free cigarettes, they have to be manufactured. So, what about putting tighter controls on the companies that make these killing machines and cutting off the supply?
then you have a very limited imagination.
I don't suppose for a minute that the authors imagined a nation of 300 million plus, coast to coast, with nuclear weapons.
When officers arrived, they found one robbery suspect fatally wounded; the suspect was pronounced dead at the scene. The homeowner was also shot and was transported a hospital with non-life threatening injuries.
This article lists individual gun owners as a percentage of each state's population, as of 2007.
This data is relevant to national and state elections, particularly the 2012 presidential election, as it clearly explains why candidates President Obama and Republican Mitt Romney refuse to meaningfully address gun control and ownership issues, at least before the November 2012 election day: thirteen of fourteen 2012 battleground states have gun ownership rates of 30% or more.
Originally posted by Alfie1
The 2nd Amendment would obviously have sounded sensible at the time ( 200 + years ago ) but things move on.
I don't suppose for a minute that the authors imagined a nation of 300 million plus, coast to coast, with nuclear weapons.
.
Originally posted by Grimpachi
I am not that out of the ordinary. It just proves that there is a need for them. What is an acceptable number of people being victimized in your opinion to warrant disarmament? For me I don’t believe anyone should be victimized when it is preventable.
Murder and violence are far more easily committed with a gun than any other hand-held weapon. Obviously there are deeper issues as to why the US is such a violent place in comparison to other first world countries but the ease of available weapons certainly doesn’t help this situation. It is my opinion that because owning and using a gun has become so normalized in US society it actually blinds you to the harm that having a society completely saturated with guns is causing.
I am not so sure about that. No one has shown me statistics or studies that prove that. Owning weapons in Israel is commonplace more so than here yet crime rate is lower than the UK.
There are many more that are worse look at Honduras where firearms are illegal to the public but the criminals have them actually most of central and South America is like that but crime, violence, and gun death is statistically higher than the US. It is probably better to compare country’s that are actually in the same region anyway.
I’m sorry but third hand information from your uncle just doesn’t cut it. I need some sort of hard data if this discussion is to progress. But even if what you say is completely true there are much better solutions against the Mexico problem than simply arming every citizen of the United States with a gun.
It is easy enough to find I am actually surprised you didn’t know it’s on the news all the time.
First hits from google
www.dailybulletin.com...
www.nytimes.com...
Just google plenty of info there.
I have, please check my above post to you.
That is a skewed graph which only shows gun death. If each country has a hundred killings but 1 is all by gun and the other is 20 by gun and the rest by knife the problem is still the same. Different tools were used but the same murders happened. Taking away guns didn’t solve anything. It just made it to where some people couldn’t protect themselves. It makes the problem worse.
I keep here this statement yet no one seems to be providing any data to back up these claims. And until this happens I am simply going to dismiss this clam as NRA propaganda.
Almost every gun thread on here has shown the data. I am tired right now if you can’t find it by tomorrow I will post it for you.
www.humanevents.com...
what the hell you can start reading there. All the info is real easy to find if you look. thousands and thousands of hits when you google.
Again a little hard data would be nice, but this claim I do actually believe. The problem here is creating ‘gun free zones’ within a country saturated with guns is paramount to a bad joke. If you want to implement an effective solution it has to be done on a nationwide basis.
You mean gun free cities and states. Considering some states are as big as others countries I think it is a good indicator of what will happen with a ban. Also keep in mind disarming America would be impossible and spark off more violence than our civil war. Another case of cure being worse than the disease.
Like I said if you can show some honest data showing less guns significantly reduced murders and crime you may have a point but no one has provided that in any thread.
Originally posted by ajay59
reply to post by 1littlewolf
Originally posted by ajay59
You gun ban People can preach, present charts and graphs and try to guilt American patriots till your blue in the face. You are wasting your time until you disarm the governments of the world! WE WILL MAINTAIN THE ABILITY TO PROTECT OURSELVES, OUR FAMILIES, FRIENDS AND OUR PROPERTY! PERIOD, THE END!!!
We get it, you do not like America in it's present state. Easy fix. Stay where you are! Do not visit us, do not move here and most importantly, do not try to invade us as you are unarmed and we are not!