Why mystic experiences are hard to discuss?

1) Most mystic theory is about death and the ego shuts down interest at first sight of danger?
2) The energy body (psi) that is described in most peoples threads reacts with belief, so how
non-believers / atheists / rationalist could even try anything (assuming their egos could allow
a minimal try) with a psi body so weak that it does not respond?
3) Most people dont care about anything as long as they are on the perceived "winning side"?
4) The earth is the right place for people get their lessons of corruption and power and does
not need much on the spiritual side for these lessons?

I would also add: mystic experiences are much like plato cave allegory.

What do you think?

reply to post by RobertPaulsim


It is really really hard to argue about something that is just in your head.
Your mind is playing tricks with you

reply to post by RobertPaulsim


I think that language is an almost an insufficient tool to explain the intangible. This clip from waking life explains it well.

If I can reword that slightly. Why are mystical experiences so hard to discuss?

Because they are a uniquely personal experience. Not only do those experiences pass through the mental filters of the one who had the experience, they then are filtered again and again by the belief system of the person(s) you discuss the experience with.

Interpretation is just one of those filters. As you can already see in the few posts this thread has.

Originally posted by Klassified
If I can reword that slightly. Why are mystical experiences so hard to discuss?

Interpretation is just one of those filters.

mystical is other worldly...out of the practical mainstream, the mundane &^ usefull


mystical and metaphysical involvement is satisified with the religious belief systems
anything further goes right into the 'fringe' element... the more-or-less poo-pooed group of free thinkers


but hey, back in the 50's the beatnicks were not really shunned but never received an Ambassadors position either...i remain a bohemian at heart
www.urbandictionary.com...

Discussing the truth with one that knows the truth would be easy and delightful. Discussing the truth with someone who does not see the truth would be like discussing red with blind men. The blind men have heard a lot about this colour that is red, they all have their own ideas about what red could be but none have ever actually experienced the colour red.
The true mystic also knows that what 'it' is, is unspeakable, it is prior to concept, prior to any thing. It has no name.

Originally posted by RobertPaulsim

2) The energy body (psi) that is described in most peoples threads reacts with belief, so how
non-believers / atheists / rationalist could even try anything (assuming their egos could allow
a minimal try) with a psi body so weak that it does not respond?

You're referring to the sheep-goat effect. It's an interesting problem.

"The data convinced me. Repeatedly, average ESP scores of subjects who rejected any possibility of ESP success (whom I called goats) were lower than average ESP scores of all other subjects (whom I called sheep). This was inexplicable by the physical laws we knew; it implied unexplored processes in the universe, an exciting new field for research. From then on, naturally, my primary research interest was parapsychology." -Gertrude Schmeidler


"Gertrude made one of the most important discoveries ever in parapsychology, one with strong spiritual implications and one which I think none of the spiritual traditions knows about, for while it's something that can happen in everyday life, it's pretty much unobservable except under laboratory conditions. She gave many classes of students ESP tests, guessing at concealed cards, but, before giving or scoring the tests, she had students fill out questionnaires that asked, among other things, whether they believed in ESP.

When she analyzed the results separately for the believers - the "sheep" - and the non-believers - the "goats" - she found a small, but significant difference. The sheep got more right than you would expect by chance guessing, they were occasionally using ESP. The goats, on the other hand, got significantly fewer right than you would expect by chance.

Think of it this way. If you were asked to guess red or black with ordinary playing cards, no feedback until you'd done the whole deck, you would average about 50% correct by chance. If you got 100% correct, you don't need statistics to know that would be astounding. But if you got 0%? Just as astounding!

The sheep thought they could do it, they got "good" scores, they were happy. The goats knew there was no ESP, nothing to get, they got poor scores, they were happy, that "proved" their belief. These were not people who were sophisticated enough about statistics to know that scoring below chance could be significant…

Many other experimenters replicated this effect over the years.

The only way I've ever been able to understand it is to think that the goats occasionally used ESP, but on an unconscious level, to know what the next card was and then their unconscious, acting in the service of their conscious belief system, influenced them to call anything but the correct one." -Charles Tart

So, how can 'goats' experience psi on their own? They can't. They need patience and assistance and compassion from 'sheep' in order to overcome their handicap.

That's one of the reasons why mystical experiences are so difficult to discuss. 'Goats' are incapable of grokking them. Like a wise man said, it's like showing the blind red.

Hey guys,

Sorry for the delay.... I had a heavy lunch and decided to nap a little! Still human, heheh...

@krzyma

Hehe... thanks!

@Shneal

Saw the film other day... But I disagree, the symbols are easy
in this case... the hard part is the belief system in place,
protecting and shielding the ego...

we think that the meat avatar is Us, that the corpse 'evolve'...
IMHO is just a gateway and interface.

@Klassified

Sorry.... im from brazil, you can blame on me! hehe.

Yeah, but im referring on to the theory part of the experience.

yes, reality = perception (interpretation)

@St Udio

people get stuck with labels, IMHO.... dimensions, levels of the
subconcious, entities.... you have to be in constant translation
mode.... when you say 'x' I must understand this as 'y' in my own
book of equations.

@Itisnowagain

Im familiar with the nameless.. I suggest some Allan Wats for you!
Very clever fella.... in one of his videos he shows how things need
a background for us to see, but the thing was always there... like
you have a black sheet if you need to see things written in white..
get it?

@BlueMule

Wow.... this escaped my research! (what a sloppy one i am)... great
find! Let me dig this a little deeper....

This video is great.... covers just what im trying to understand!

Self.

The unbelievable only becomes believable when it happen to you.

That's why I don't talk about experiences I have had.

Originally posted by RobertPaulsim


@Itisnowagain

Im familiar with the nameless.. I suggest some Allan Wats for you!
Very clever fella.... in one of his videos he shows how things need
a background for us to see, but the thing was always there... like
you have a black sheet if you need to see things written in white..
get it?

The background is always present yet never makes an appearance - i am that.
Are you familiar with it or are you it? Has it not been realized?

reply to post by Itisnowagain


I guess the black board and the white writting are just a metaphor that illustrates
that for anyone to see (what anyone talks about) you must have the experience first....

-RP

Originally posted by RobertPaulsim
reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

I guess the black board and the white writting are just a metaphor that illustrates
that for anyone to see (what anyone talks about) you must have the experience first....

-RP

Without the space for thingness to appear no thing can appear. You are the space of awareness that is empty for the appearance to beable to appear and disappear. All things appear and disappear - they are transitory.
You (the aware space) are the one constant that has to be there prior to any thing arising.

reply to post by Itisnowagain


you are talking about choice and then the observer effect - interesting. I also might
add the required attunement and focus required for a experience to happen... karma?

A mystical experience can be defined as a visit to a supersensory realm, or realities that are of a kind not accessible by way of sense perception.

Therefor these 'realities' are merely dream-states, drug-induced breaks from reality and self-hypnotized views. All of these 'mystical experiences' amount to nothing more than tricking the brain and senses into seeing something that is not actually there, and then endowing it with some sort of truth to perpetuate a religious way of thinking. The purpose of this seems to be escapism or because life is not fulfilling enough.

reply to post by LesMisanthrope


Typical scientism dogma. Mystics reject dogma be it secular or religious.

Ever traveled to the astral realm during a dream? Ever woken up in the deep blackness of dreamless sleep? Ever shared dreams simultaneously with other dreamers in other locations? Ever had a string of events in your dreams come true? Ever been guided through danger by dreams?

Well, I have... and much much more. Compared to all that, the lame dogma of the dominant paradigm of-the-day doesn't hold a candle.

reply to post by BlueMule

Originally posted by BlueMule
reply to post by LesMisanthrope

 

Typical scientism dogma.

Ever traveled to the astral realm during a dream? Ever woken up in the deep blackness of dreamless sleep? Ever shared dreams simultaneously with other dreamers in other locations? Ever had a string of events in your dreams come true? Ever been guided through danger by dreams?

Well, I have... and much much more. Compared to all that, the lame dogma of the dominant paradigm of-the-day doesn't hold a candle.

edit on 21-12-2012 by BlueMule because: (no reason given)

I agree. Much is possible in the dream world. I've seen unicorns there.

Sure the real world isn't as cool as the dream world, because where else can someone talk to the dead and sleep with Jessica Alba? Nonetheless every time and sooner or later, you must wake up.

scientism is an extreme erring on the side of caution.

mixing paranormal experiences with talk of mystic experiences , shows how chaotic and confused that direction is.

its like talking about 'outside my neiberhood' as one place. so another city , another continent and another galaxy are the same.

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
A mystical experience can be defined as a visit to a supersensory realm, or realities that are of a kind not accessible by way of sense perception.

Therefor these 'realities' are merely dream-states, drug-induced breaks from reality and self-hypnotized views. All of these 'mystical experiences' amount to nothing more than tricking the brain and senses into seeing something that is not actually there, and then endowing it with some sort of truth to perpetuate a religious way of thinking. The purpose of this seems to be escapism or because life is not fulfilling enough.

@LesMisanthrope

Hey Les, how are you?

Well, another realities = dream-states.... interesting.

Its been evidence of contemplation that people can solve problems more easily
if they can sleep over it, so the 'mind' gets more imaginative and by dream state
you get a full brain activity instead of just left brain imperative or dominant logic
processing when awake.

www.talentculture.com...

So, in a way, the "dreams" are incorporated into real life. BUT, remember a
dream is difficult, so by these results in productivity that processing is relayed
subconsciusly.

Dream-state also is reality. Our body is shut down by some phisiological process (couldnt
find the link, sorry) to prevent us to jump the window while sleeping. So the brain
is aware that what IT is experiencing is NOT real... but, as said earlier, much is
retained in subc memory, acessed after.

Ever tryed to retain memory of dreams? Its hard. One needs patience, journals and
serious motives to keep on doing that.

Question is: if altered states of the brain is good for a human being to hunt better
in the forest, why he cant keep all that processing information at bay? Why it has
to go down the rabbit hole?

Another question: how people day dream? isnt it dangerous for the body to have that
period of contemplation and not to pay attention to the environment? it could get
you killed...

Seems like bad design to me, or the function serves another purpose?

reply to post by RobertPaulsim


Good day sir and thank you for the kind response.

I agree with much of what you say. The dream world, as a necessary part of reality since we all go there, should be considered for what it is. But if we look at any research into dreams we always find, according to those who spend time in this area, physiological purposes to dreaming (ie. repairing neurons, resting the senses, restoring brain functions, deleting arbitrary information accumulated throughout the day etc.). Nothing shows that the dreamworld is in anyway a fundamental reality, but something that occurs out of necessity. This the mystic fails to admit.

I can lucid dream, but whatever I accomplish in the dreamworld cannot translate to reality, and I wake up having accomplished absolutely nothing save for having a decent dream. I awake just as I went to sleep, empty handed.

Sleep and the dreams that arise out of it have purpose, but it doesn't seem that the purpose is to remain there somehow to merely get a kick out of what goes on in the imagination.

Mystical experiences can only happen if the brain is stressed, asleep, intoxicated, injured, near death, oxygen starved or self-hypnotized. This is very telling to me. A method through which the brain and senses are deceived is required to have any mystical affect.