Originally posted by PrplHrt
This thread is one of the reasons I hate the young.

We gave you a beautiful free country and you're pissing it away.

You don't deserve it.

Thank you, wounded one, and a star. Deserve sometimes has little
to do with earning it. I've got too many dead relatives to ever forget
what we were supposed to be fighting for-- now the chickens have
come home to make some noise covering the fox padding in.
Whatever is going to get this country back will cost plenty now, just
from not watching closely enough. I don't hate the young, but what
they don't know .. disgusting.
Like I said before I'm subscribed and interested in seeing where THIS
thread goes. Thank you again for your sacrifices.

Originally posted by TheMindWar
?
Wasnt the 2nd amendment to ensure no tyranical government could have total control over its people because that leads to tyranny?

Please enlighten me as to what has changed about this fact?

Like I said in another thread: Take your automatic weapons to the white house to overthrow our current tyrannical government and tell me how that turns out.

The problem is that with our current somewhat civilized country it shouldn't be necessary to overthrow our government with guns, the power to change government is in your vote.

Julie Washington:

This is an excellent article that explains the reasons the 2nd amendment was created, and how it's been used in the SCOTUS.

You are to be congratulated for this thread. The 2nd amendment is indeed outdated, and does not reflect today's American society, in fact, it is a chain around its shoulders, and needs updating or replacing entirely.

Jeffrey Sachs:

More basically, the idea that unregulated private gun ownership and trade protects us against tyranny, or that gun controls would threaten tyranny to us all, is baseless. Democracies around the world regulate guns, preserve their freedoms, and achieve firearm murder rates that are a tiny fraction of the rates suffered in the United States.

It really is as succinct as that. Many Americans will not think reasonably, logically, or empathetically, when it comes to discussions on the 2nd amendment. For many, it isn't even up for discussion! Many will not attempt a honest introspection of the subject, regardless of the cost in innocent human life.

As regards gun ownership safeguarding against a tyrannical government, I had this to say in another thread, I bring it here for thematic reasons...

These so-called uprisings, those of Eygpt and Libyia were successful simply because they had military help from other countries that wanted to see them succeed. Syria, is currently in its death throes, the rebels again getting outside aid from the countries that want the rebels to win...yours included. This now brings me to the point of my reply...

The nearest public face of a tyrannical government in America was that of George Bush's. The world watched in awe as Americans rose up to defend their constitution while the Bush administration set about shredding from it the bits that concerned the freedoms of Americans against unlawful arrest. If you actually believe that you could take on a tyrannical government without outside aid from other countries, you really are in for a rude awakening!

Let me say it to you in a nutshell...you wouldn't stand a chance! You are not defending against anything federal by having a gun. Your gun doesn't even 'protect', it just gives you the option to engage an attacker, and that does not mean you will be the one to come out unscathed! This belief that many Americans have about the 2nd amendment is total bull#!

The 2nd amendment might have been useful and practical in the 18th century, but in the 21st century, its only use is as an idealistic delusion. Today, it is as redundant as yesterday's perfume! You had a taste of soft tyranny with Bush, and Obama's administration has continued it...why are you not out on the streets with your guns?

Here's why...it is because you are not a united citizenry, you're all too paranoid with one another, making you incapable of uniting into a citizen force that would have even the most remote chance against a full-on, coming-to-get-you tyranny! There isn't an American alive today that knows what real tyranny is, or what it feels like...you've all read about it in books, and watched stories about it on your screens, but you have never experienced it! The irony of it all is that many Americans are not wholly concerned that their government exports its own brand of tyranny abroad...they seem quite happy with that.

Want to know what tyranny might be like if it arrives...watch the Waco documentaries, because that was just a microcosm of what you can expect when it comes time for you to truly resist them taking your guns...but hey, at least you'll go down fighting, eh? Meanwhile, over here in the mother country, we'll be walking down our streets enjoying the exact same freedoms without the need for a single gun to defend them. We are not paranoid or living in fear. We are not scared of each other, we do not fear each other, and we are absolutely not scared of our government!

By all means, stay in the 18th century with an eye towards your 2nd amendment and Bill of Rights, gaze upon them with loving fondness as the rest of the world awaits you to catch up to us in the 21st century. If you're honest, when it comes to your liberties and freedoms and rights, you really don't have much of a proven track record for their defence at all...do you?

Peace.

Originally posted by DirtyLiberalHippie
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

-Ben Franklin

I could not agree more, Ben. Thank you, and rest in peace. Although, I fear you may be turning in your grave at the moment...

Originally posted by DirtyLiberalHippie
It is our right to alter or abolish our government should it become destructive of it's own ends. That was put in there as a permanent right, for a reason. Should our government EVER become destructive of it's own ends. Should our government start turning it's guns on it's own people, well, we may not stand much of a chance in this day and age, but damn it, at least with our second amendment in place, we would at lest have a chance.

Are you sure you are not a DirtyLibertarianHippie?

All labels aside, I could not agree more.
Thank you for a good post. Starred.

I also agree with your assessment regarding the lack of resources for those with mental health conditions.

Considering we have the most fascist elements of the world determined to bring about a Fourth Reicht and doing away with human rights left right and center, conducting false flags at whim and murdering countless civilians, illegally conducting wars overseas and murdering civilians, in countries who are not in war with the US with drones, propping up Sharia type dictatorships overseas, and that they are poisoning all the land, soil, ocean, air, and destroying our food and nutrients, and declaring food drugs, and .....and....and....and....and....and....and... the list goes on ad nauseum, I would not think the purpose is long past as the actual purpose of arms is for civilians to protect themselves from tyrants and fascists.

And that is what is running our world.

DirtyLiberalHippie:

What a silly thing to suggest that a RIGHT is a relic.

What a silly thing to suggest that a 'right' remains universal and relevant to all historic eras. In order for a 'right' to maintain its ideological power, it has to be constantly inspected against contemporary times, and if need be, must be updated, superceded (like laws), or dropped entirely. A 'right' must reflect the society it is aimed at in order to be the beacon around which people will allocate their consensus.

DirtyLiberalHippie:

It is our right to alter or abolish our government should it become destructive of it's own ends.

No. it isn't a 'right', it is a 'duty'. If you live under an oppressive regime, you don't need a 'right' to throw of its chains. When the colonists declared their independence from Great Britain, they had no 'right' to do so, they just went ahead and did it...rightly so in my book!

DirtyLiberalHippie:

Those who speak of destroying our constitution and abolishing rights are scared and emotional.

No. You have it the wrong way round. Those that fear their guns being taken from them are being 'scared and emotional'. No one is talking about destroying the constitution or abolishing any rights that are relevant to today's American society. They are talking about updating it. Where were you when George Bush was shredding your rights from the constitution during his administration? Where were the patriots, the gun owners, the 'bravehearts' that vowed to resist? Perhaps, you couldn't find the time to fit in to save the constitution because you were down at the rifle range shooting paper targets, or maybe out hunting squirrels? You are talking absolute tosh!

DrtyLiberalHippie:

You can ban guns, knives, baseball bats and lead pipes, but a person dead set on killing, will pick up a rock and start hitting people over the head instead.

That may indeed be the case, but he won't slaughter 20 kids and six adults with it. You need to get a grip on perspective!

DirtyLiberalHippie:

The problem is not guns. It's not.

Absolutely! Guns really are not the problem, more guns really are not the solution, either. The fact that it has such a wide and easy availability, the gun is the choice of weapon for both attack and defence. It is logical therefore to limit access to them, and one of the ways of doing so is to bring a greater strict control on what you can buy. By banning 'semi' and 'automatic' firearms, you criminalize their possession and ownership, which gives the authorities legal avenues to hunt them down and confiscate them, leading them to being withdrawn from society.

DirtyLiberalHippie:

Just like the war on drugs... That failed and a war on guns would fail just as badly.

The war on drugs is still ongoing, is it not? There is no war on guns. Just a sensible and common sense approach to reducing the amount available. Perhaps, you'd prefer no one did anything, to act as inert as your promise to defend the constitution?

DirtyLiberalHippie:

We need to focus our attention not on the piece of metal that we call a gun, but instead on those people who are clearly having issues and in this society...

So, you want a witchhunt on mental illnesses? You want to blame mental illness as the culprit for all gun killings? How would your witchhunt have stopped Adam Lanza? He couldn't own a gun legally, so he took his mother's after killing her. Are you going to arbitrate against gun owners whom have offspring with mental issues? Are you going to trample on their rights, just so you can continue to own your gun? Gun owners argue from paranoia, fear, and selfishness. Period!

It is not a relic if people stand up (a la Spartacus^X) and say "I AM THE MILITIA"....the Second Amendment most certainly applies to an armed citizenry that considers itself the militia (much more so than for collectors, gun merchants, hunters, target shooters or even for self defense).

Defuntion:

Can you tell me who exactly you think will come for our guns if it comes to that?
Some new goventment body perhaps? Our military maybe? Volunteers? Who? There are certain logistics to something like that. Any campaign to confiscate weapons from the American public would be an epic fail. Epic...

The logistics is easy. You first set up a timed amnesty for relinquishing guns that become by law illegal to own. You can set up centres for dropping them off, or you can simply take them to your local police station. Be under no illusion, once the amnesty runs out, if you have not handed in your illegal gun, robust policing will take them from you.

As you are quite well aware, all guns are serialised and entered onto a database containing names and addresses. If you've sold it privately, you should have informed the relevant authorities that you have done so, giving the name and address of the buyer. This you did because you are a law-abiding citizen, you are not a criminal. If the police have not received confirmation that you handed in your AK-47, or your M16, listen out for the knock on your door...what! you're gonna meet the cops with a gun! Let me know where I can send the flowers for your grave!

Originally posted by elysiumfire
The logistics is easy. You first set up a timed amnesty for relinquishing guns that become by law illegal to own. You can set up centres for dropping them off, or you can simply take them to your local police station. Be under no illusion, once the amnesty runs out, if you have not handed in your illegal gun, robust policing will take them from you.

Easy? Easy for you to say.
That approach would be a fail.

What you fail to acknowledge with this approach (or any)is that our police officers, our military, our government officials, etc. are also American Citizens. They have families who are also American citizens (also with guns).
There will be resistance. The majority of military/police/officials will not be turning their guns on their families.
Sorry.

I think you don't quite understand how important the issue is to the average American who values liberty.

But feel free fantasize about an easily disarmed American public.

Originally posted by PrplHrt
This thread is one of the reasons I hate the young.

We gave you a beautiful free country and you're pissing it away.

You don't deserve it.

I wish I could give this a million stars

People really don't need to assemble either. And their right to speak freely was thought of back before people realized how hurtful words can be. Certain religions are weird and should be banned too. We've all learned that searches by police are a normal part of life now and their kinda nice. Trials in court are also a bit archaic and could easily be replaced with something easier to administer like instant imprisonment. And everybody supports war these days and loves the troops, so we probably wouldn't mind having a few stay in our homes for a bit.
You're right, the whole stupid Constitution is outdated and irrelevant for today's brave new world. We are just so much smarter than the framers of the Constitution it's not even funny.