Are Jesus' Prophecies Subject To Question?

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by Deetermined

 

The Jewish messiah is a leader anointed by God, physically descended from the Davidic line, who will rule the united tribes of Israel and herald the Messianic Age of global peace also known as the World to Come.

en.wikipedia.org...

That's right. And the one who has been appointed as the anointed one (Messiah) over "global peace" in the "World to Come" is Jesus.

reply to post by Deetermined


Except, we know that Cyrus was a messiah, because the Bible says so, and that he didn't come from the line of David.

Jesus did not deliver the Jewish nation from bondage or restore Israel's golden age. Jesus is only a "messiah" in the imaginative minds and hearts of Christians.

In Judaism, the expected king of the line of David who will deliver the Jews from foreign bondage and restore Israel's golden age.
The term used for the messiah in the Greek New Testament, christos, was applied to Jesus, who is accepted by Christians as the promised redeemer.
Messiah figures also appear in various other religions and cultures; Shiite Muslims, for example, look for a restorer of the faith known as the mahdi, and Maitreya is a redeeming figure in Buddhism.
www.merriam-webster.com...

Originally posted by windword

Except, we know that Cyrus was a messiah, because the Bible says so, and that he didn't come from the line of David.

We only know that the Jews considered him to be a messiah to them, but he was never their king.

Jesus did not deliver the Jewish nation from bondage or restore Israel's golden age. Jesus is only a "messiah" in the imaginative minds and hearts of Christians.

Why should he have? They didn't listen to him and he was killed. That's why Jesus will be the Messiah during the Messianic Age.

In Judaism, the expected king of the line of David who will deliver the Jews from foreign bondage and restore Israel's golden age.

They lost their chance and now they're going to have to wait.

The term used for the messiah in the Greek New Testament, christos, was applied to Jesus, who is accepted by Christians as the promised redeemer.

Yes, we accept Jesus as our Messiah who will return to reign over the earth in "global peace" (during the Millennium).

Messiah figures also appear in various other religions and cultures; Shiite Muslims, for example, look for a restorer of the faith known as the mahdi, and Maitreya is a redeeming figure in Buddhism.

www.merriam-webster.com...

It just goes to show that there may have many Messiahs, but only one begotten Son of God who will bring peace to all of the earth.

reply to post by Deetermined

It just goes to show that there may have many Messiahs, but only one begotten Son of God who will bring peace to all of the earth.

Really?

I just posted this in another thread.

How many "Sons" does God have? Many people will now complain "but the Bible clearly says that Jesus is the Son of God". Well then, how many sons does God almighty have?.

The Bible tells us that Jacob is God's son and firstborn: "Israel is my son, even my firstborn" Exodus 4:22.

Solomon is God's son "He shall build an house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever. I will be his father, and he shall be my son": 2 Samuel 7:13-14.

Ephraim is God's firstborn: "for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn." Jeremiah 31:9 (who is God's firstborn?. Israel or Ephraim?).

Adam is the son of God "Adam, which was the son of God." Luke 3:38.

Even common people are the sons of God: "Ye are the children of the LORD your God" Deuteronomy 14:1. "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God" Romans 8:14.

Well then, is Jesus the only begotten son of God?.
www.turntoislam.com...

reply to post by windword


That's why all of those verses have "son" in lower case and not capitalized.

Jesus is the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:16

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by windword

 

That's why all of those verses have "son" in lower case and not capitalized.

Oh, okay. It all makes sense now. lol

Jesus is the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:16

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Oh well, if it's in the Bible, it must be true.

Just before Jesus (supposedly) spoke these words, he (supposedly) said:

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. John 3:14-15

That's right. Jesus believed in the snake-on-a-pole story of Numbers 21, God's 23rd Killing. He believed that God sent fiery serpents to bite and kill the people for complaining about the lack of food and water. And he believed that God told Moses to make a brass serpent and put it on a pole so that those who looked at it would be magically cured. And he was OK with all that. In fact, Jesus said his own death would be just like that. If you believe in Jesus' magical death, you'll be saved just like the people that had been bitten by God's fiery serpents were saved by looking at Moses' magic snake on a pole.
dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com...

I don't believe in Jesus' magic death or that he resurrected from the dead, and especially not for the sins of the world.

If Jesus was, in fact, a begotten "son of God", then his death was the prescribed penalty that was ordered by GOD in Psalms 82, because of a failure to fulfill GOD's mandate.

Psalm 82 1
A Psalm of Asaph. GOD standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.

3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.

4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.

5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.

6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

Originally posted by windword


If Jesus was, in fact, a begotten "son of God", then his death was the prescribed penalty that was ordered by GOD in Psalms 82, because of a failure to fulfill GOD's mandate.

Psalm 82 1
A Psalm of Asaph. GOD standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.

3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.

4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.

5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.

6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

That's probably why Jesus repeated Psalm 82:6 in John 10:34.

The Jews were not fulfilling their mandate or recognizing the fact that they were the ones chosen to spread the gospel of the kingdom ("unto whom the word of God came") through Christ.

John 10:30-38

30 I and my Father are one.

31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

reply to post by Deetermined


Or, it could explain his persistence in claiming to be a "son of God" and why he was being persecuted. If Jesus was Yahweh incarnate, maybe he had to pay for the sin that he led his people into, and atone for it by preaching the original mandate, as his mission.





Star for your recognition that Jesus quoted the Psalm!

Originally posted by windword

Or, it could explain his persistence in claiming to be a "son of God" and why he was being persecuted. If Jesus was Yahweh incarnate, maybe he had to pay for the sin that he led his people into, and atone for it by preaching the original mandate, as his mission.

If you find a hint of that in the Bible, let me know, but so far everything I know about the Bible says that Jesus was sent as a lamb sacrifice for them because they couldn't keep the laws and kept following other gods.

Star for your recognition that Jesus quoted the Psalm!

Thanks. Here's another Psalm that Jesus quoted from...

Psalm 22:1

22 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by Deetermined

 

It just goes to show that there may have many Messiahs, but only one begotten Son of God who will bring peace to all of the earth.

Really?

I just posted this in another thread.

How many "Sons" does God have? Many people will now complain "but the Bible clearly says that Jesus is the Son of God". Well then, how many sons does God almighty have?.

The Bible tells us that Jacob is God's son and firstborn: "Israel is my son, even my firstborn" Exodus 4:22.

Solomon is God's son "He shall build an house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever. I will be his father, and he shall be my son": 2 Samuel 7:13-14.

Ephraim is God's firstborn: "for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn." Jeremiah 31:9 (who is God's firstborn?. Israel or Ephraim?).

Adam is the son of God "Adam, which was the son of God." Luke 3:38.


Well then, is Jesus the only begotten son of God?.
www.turntoislam.com...

Pretty easy to answer when you know OT scripture. Israel, is Ephraim. Ephraim was the nickname of the Northern Kingdom. When Solomon fell into Idolatry, God punished him by having his kingdom (which was called Israel) split into 2, but because God loved David, that punishment fell on Rehoboam instead. During Rehoboam's reign Ephraim and Judah split into 2 kingdoms.

Now inregards to being God's "firstborn", it is speaking about his firstborn nation, the first nation he created, getting personally involved in world affairs since the tower of Bab'El.

Even common people are the sons of God: "Ye are the children of the LORD your God" Deuteronomy 14:1. "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God" Romans 8:14.

Ah, clever but not all common people are filled with the Holy Spirit "For as many are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. Being filled with the Holy Spirit requires a personal relationship with Christ, without which you remain the walking dead. Not all people are sons of God and even then there is only ONE Begotten Son of God and that one my friend, was around before Creation.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


Whatever, there is more than one son of God.

When your days are fulfilled and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring after you, who shall come forth from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever.

I will be his father, and he shall be my son.

WHEN HE COMMITS INIQUITY, I will chasten him with the rod of men, with the stripes of the sons of men; but I will not take my steadfast love from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away from before you.
(2 Samuel 7:12-15)

Psalms 2:7
I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me (David the king), Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Jeremiah 31:9
They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.

Matthew 5:48
Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Your entire hypothesis of Jesus being the only begotten son of God comes from one word in one verse from one book of questionable authorship.

That word is "only."

For God so loved the world, that he gave his ONLY begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

I don't believe that Jesus actually said the word "only." It's inconsistent with his teachings and with scripture.

reply to post by windword


There's no doubt that the Bible is full of mystery, but I'm going to attempt to explain this from my point of view, as that's all it is.

I have every reason to believe that the "sons of God" are the descendants of Seth (which led to the line of Abraham, Issac and Jacob and eventually Jesus) and the "sons of men" are the descendants of Cain (leading to Ishmael and Esau).

Genesis 4:25

25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.

I think this may be another reason why we see the "sons of God" co-habitating with the "daughters of men" to create the giants in Genesis 6 (there's many a debate on that subject alone). After a certain number of people populated the earth, certain Israelites were strictly forbidden from mixing and marrying the Canaanites, and for good reason, most of them were destroyed.

If you do some research on the "wheat and the tares", the seed planted by God, the seed planted by Satan, and the seed of Abraham, you have to wonder if God didn't specifically have the "seeds" separated for a reason to fulfill his ultimate will and plan here on earth.

Here are some interesting verses from Paul:

Galatians 4:22-31

22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

That's just my two cents.

Kind of reminds you of what's going on in the Middle East today, doesn't it? The seed of Isaac against the seed of Ishmael? Jews vs. Muslims?

reply to post by Deetermined

I have every reason to believe that the "sons of God" are the descendants of Seth (which led to the line of Abraham, Issac and Jacob and eventually Jesus) and the "sons of men" are the descendants of Cain (leading to Ishmael and Esau)

Well your theory contradicts Deuteronomy 32:8. Also, why did Jesus call himself the "son of man" if the "sons of men" were the descendants of Cain?

Were any of Cain's descendants on Noah's Ark?

Originally posted by windword

Well your theory contradicts Deuteronomy 32:8. Also, why did Jesus call himself the "son of man" if the "sons of men" were the descendants of Cain?

I think Jesus was also referred to as the "Son of man" from the same standpoint that it's written in Deuteronomy 32:8. He was both special as the begotten "Son of God" as well as a human, making him a "son of Adam" or "Son of man". But I think "sons of men" has a different connotation.

Were any of Cain's descendants on Noah's Ark?

If I'm not mistaken, I think one of Noah's sons was married to the daughter of a Canaanite. I'm definitely going to have to freshen up on this info, as I'm not sure.

Either that or we know that there may have been a cursed seed again when Noah put a curse on Ham's son, Canaan and possibly his descendants.

reply to post by windword


Continued...

Romans 8:14

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

So, I'm guessing that the "sons of men" are those who follow the spirit of the world (Satan) and not God.

I still don't think it's a coincidence how the bloodlines flow and who ends up led by the Spirit of God and who doesn't.

reply to post by Deetermined

I'm going to attempt to explain this from my point of view, as that's all it is.

I have every reason to believe that .........

So, is it just your point of view, or do you HAVE EVERY REASON to believe? What are your reasons?

Can you back ANYTHING of your "reasons" on ANYTHING but The Bible?