Masons VS Non-Masons

I'm new to ATS and I have noticed a lot of fairly, shall we say 'heated' debates going on between defensive Masons and speculative non-Masons regarding the true nature of Masonry and the supposed sinister plans behind it all. All this arguing back and forth about the Masons is fruitless for a few reasons:

I. Those who have never become a Mason will never be able to provide solid proof for their theories simply because they are outside of the loop.

II. Those Masons who have not reached the uppermost level of the Masonic heirarchy wil never be able to provide solid proof that the theories are incorrect, because as a lower level Mason, they are not privvy to any secrets if there are any to be revealed.

III. Those who have reached the highest level of the heirarchy would not be willing to divulge secrets, again assuming that there are any to divulge.

So the ordinary Masons are arguing that they there is no minotaur in the labyrnth because they walked two steps inside and didn't see one. The non-masons are arguing that there must be a minotaur simply because there is a labyrinth. And the upper echelons of the Masons aren't talking.

Stalemate.

Some of the research tools that are available to support some of these theories are:

1. Former Masons who, after reaching a high level, have left the order and divulged secrets.
Masons claim that these supposed Masons are actually frauds, and there is no way to prove otherwise. It would not be too incredible to think that some researchers, frustrated by solid proof of their theories, would make up a story or too and post it on a website or publish it in a book. The good old "names have been changed at the request of the persons involved" is very useful in avoiding confirmation of stories.

2. Writings by prominent Freemasons such as Albert Pike's "Morals and Dogma".
The Masons have in the past claimed that his name was falsely attributed to the writings in question (not sure as to the accuracy of this one), or that he was just one Mason and doesn't represent the Freemasons as a whole. One would then have to ask how he became a Mason of the 33rd degree - Sovereign Grand Commander of the Scottish Rite's Southern Jurisdiction. And if the Freemasons do not agree with his writings, then how did he even attain such a high level within the brotherhood? Nor was ever removed from that position, even posthumously.

3. Books and writings intended for lower level Freemasons and the general public.
Refer to point II. above.

4. Symbols used in Masonic rituals that have supposedly occult roots.
The use of a symbol does not necessarily mean that the user(s) aligns with, or even understands the true meaning of the symbol itself. I used Roman numerals for my first three points above, but that doesn't mean I have secret plans to see Nero's Empire restored.

So I implore the Masons here to flame a little less when anyone suggests there may be something more to the Freemason organization than meets the eye. And I implore the non-masons to be a little less sweeping in their generalizations; if every Mason was "in on it", "it" would have been revealed long ago.

edit spelling

[edit on 2004/10/24 by wecomeinpeace]

"something more to Masonry" . . . ?

"More" as in the attainment of significant politcal, economic and social power, to be used to whatever ends? (Just like ANY powerful societal forces would do.) Certrainly, not all Masons partake of this sort of thing.

Or . . .

"More" as in Satan-worshipping, devil-loving, baby-eating, magic-wielding, and other such activities?

I do not mind allegations of the former, for some of it actaully makes sense, but is nothing to complain about, really. Historical truisms. I can simply ignore those. By the way, Powere qua Power, does NOT presuppose "evil" (another idiotic word used by Mason-haters) or sinister intentions.

The latter theory, however, I take exception to, and I will defend against.

By the way, it IS NOT Masons vs. Non-Masons. Many non-Masons are here to ask questions, to learn, and to participate in meaningful discussions. It is Masons vs. anti- Masons.

[edit on 24-10-2004 by LTD602]

True, but not for the reasons you assume...



Assumes facts not in evidence. There are NO higher levels of masonry in the sense you infer.



again, assumes facts not in evidence. There is NO higher levels of masonry.



Again, assumes facts not in evidence. There IS a labyrinth, to be sure, but there is no minotaur. Assumption of facts not in evidence. Or, more accurately, a lack of evidence is not evidence...



Not really. You seem to miss the PURPOSE of the debate. It is NOT to convince the ignorant and hateful that they are wrong. It is to provide to the curious that have no preconceived notions that there IS another side, and that proof is available contrary to the hateful lies posted by masonic critics.

Are there things to be critical of masonry for? Sure, but its not the things these hatemongers are posting. Will I tell you what they are? No. Why? Mostly because as non masons it is none of your business, and, as I have pledged my honor to keep the secrets of the fraternity, I guess you will just have to take my word for it that the issues are purely internal...



Please provide proof of your contention. What I have read by ex-masons have nothing to do with "higher levels", but are, instead, related to revealing what they purport to be the rituals and signs and such of masonry, and to be honest, those are NOT the secrets... they are secret, to be sure, but you cannot learn the secrets of masonry by reading...



Well, you are right on both accounts. Though I would consider the use of the word "researcher" to be a little too much credit to the frauds that post against masonry for the most part.



Not quite accurate. Pike did write Morals and Dogma. What has been disputed, and factually shown, is that Pike did not write the letter purporting to worship lucifer. It was written by Leo Taxil, a fact he confessed to in public, of his own free will and accord after making fools of the vatican, which was his own stated goal. Look it up right here on ATS. I posted his transcribed confession.



No, again, you misunderstand. Pike WAS the sovreign grand commander of the southern jurisdiction, and a great mason, and a great mover in masonry. He just did not write the fraudulent letter ascribed to him.



Again, you misunderstand masonry. EVERY brother is entitled to his own opinion. Masonry is NOT the Catholic church, the expells men for their opinions, instead, masonry encourages men to contemplate the lessons and symbols and history, and to reach their own understandings. Pike was a great man, and his book Morals and Dogma is a great book, OF PIKE'S PHILOSOPHY. But no mason agrees with every word he wrote, or is even expected to agree with anything that Pike wrote.



No such thing. Again, assumes facts not in evidence. There are no higher or lower level freemasons, though if you have any proof at all that there are, I would like to see it. This whole "higher level" thing is a ploy, created by detractors, to denigrate what millions of men say, as a way of saying, well, you just don't know the truth because... when, carefully examining their own logic, you would have to ask, then how do YOU know, not even being a mason? In other words, the whole higher level nonsense has no intellectual honesty to it... its circular reasoning.



Bingo. Gosh, its good to see someone actually use their brain as more than an ear spacer!



Uh, here I diverge with you. Masons have NOT been flaming anyone. We have been answering the lies and trying to spread truth as opposed to fertilizer.



Or, more accurately, because there is no THERE, there... Masonry is what it appears to be... a group of good and honest men trying to make themselves better by associating with other good men, and having a little good, clean, honest fun while doing it, and serving the community.

Thanks for your honest post...

[edit on 10/24/04 by theron dunn]

VERY good point, LTD. I clicked on this thread expecting to see something about non-Masons vs. Masons. It should have been anti-Mason.
I am a non-Mason. From my amateur perch, your arguments about upper echelons and occult symbology sound as if you may be anti-Masonry?

You also suggest that Masons should "flame a little less" when folks attack their Brotherhood. If you were in their position, I doubt you would graciously remain silent during these attacks.

"A witty saying proves nothing." - Voltaire

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- Robert Anson Heinlein (1907-88), American writer, "Stranger in a Strange Land"

"Anti-Masons" there's that word again - there is no such thing outside of Freemasonry, it is a deception to make cult members believe there is an invisible enemy out there that has to be stopped.
Very convenient because you can instantly lable anybody who says anything that is out of line with the cult dogma as such and invoke the unthinking wrath of the mob.
You don't see anybody referring to themselves by this term - its a bit like how "Fox news" calls anyone that opposes US troops (even after being invaded in their own countries) "Terrorists."

Incidentally has anyone seen Gadfly - I surface posted some items to him a couple of weeks ago for the first time and haven't heard from him since.

My mail is monitored as far as I'm aware, so I am a little concerned someone may have tracked him down and silenced him up, which is quite common with Freemasonry.

[edit on 24-10-2004 by MrNECROS]

Speaking of using your brain for more than an ear spacer, and there he is, the poster child for NEEDING a brain... MrNecros... lets hear it for him and his paranoid schizophrenia folks!

Hey, necros, welcome back... they let you near a computer again?

If your mail was monitored, and if we really controlled things, don't you think that YOU would be one of the first on the list to vanish? I mean, get real...

I have never styled you as anything more than a pathetic paranoid with delusions of importance... but YOU seem to set yourself as antimasonic. There is that term again... perhaps because it accurately describes you and your attitude and your ilk? What would you rather be referenced as?

A masonic critic? No, critic implies a certain level of critical thinking and rational thought which, by your posts, seems to be lacking. Hmmm, I don't know, necros... you seem confused about masonry, rosicrucians, illuminati, bug eyed aliens, greys or men in white coats...

So, what IS your point then?

As for gadfly, he was soundly thrashed about the head and shoulders for posting general foolishness, and ran with his tail between his legs for other, warmer climes, where he doesn't have to subject himself to folks that disagree with him... in other words, like yourself, he is probably mumbling to himself while someone wipes the drool off his chin...

but seriously folks, don't get the impression by this that I take necros any more seriously than he takes himself...

The object of this forum, this board, is to DENY IGNORANCE. MrNecros, you come here embodying ignorance. If you want to play, put up or, frankly, shut up... you post nonsequiteurs and half baked irrational concepts. Its about time that you either put up some proof or folded your tent and crawled back under the tent at FW, where no one challenges your spew...

Meantime, thanks for trolling an otherwise interesting thread. Do you have anything to write that is even vaugely on point?

Theron - Oh excellent, now you are seeing invisible messages from aliens in my posts as well.
If you didn't pad everything out so heavily I'd find you quite amusing but you make threads so long as to be illegible.
You rants are quite impressive though - I received 2 warings for simply calling Freemasons pathalogical liars and cowards.
You routinely abuse anyone in this forum on a personal basis and seem to get away with it - maybe its because most people don't go begging to a moderator even are receiving a barrage of this nonsense.

NECROS:

When are you going to address the accusations and allegations you have made wholesale against Masonry? Namely:

1.) That Masons have vandalized your toilet.

2.) That Masons have drugged you.

3.) That Masons have caused yoy to lose your job, your girlfriend.

4.) That Masons actually had the time and energy (they have jobs and many have families) to pursue you not simply over several countries, but over more than one continent, and also cause you to lose jobs in those countries, too.

Names? Dates? Details? If you really want to perform a public service and show that you are indeed serious and telling the truth, you would have posted explicit details a long time ago (after MANY requests and opportunities, I might add) so that others can learn exactly what happened to you, so that they might better be able to prevent this from happening to them.

By the way, since you have www.freemasonrywatch.com in your profile, do you actually run that trashy website, or do you simply promote it?

At least address the allegations you have made in detail, before you continue to accuse Masonry of every evil and its dog in the world.

As for Gadfly . . .

"The mayfly (Gadfly?) only lives for one day . . . . . and sometiems it rains."



[edit on 25-10-2004 by LTD602]

Great - now LTD is off his leash again.
Down Zealotous Brother...down...down!

Incidentally I just got word from Gadfly - false alarm, call back the troops.

I am not affiliated with FW - I have just corresponded with its owner via email and thoroughly recommend everyone check it out, it is one of, if not the best places to start when researching Freemasonry.

Or, more accurately, perhaps its because I DON'T do what you accuse me of doing. And I am sorry my posts are too dense for you... most folks with an IQ about their shoe size don't have problems understanding my thoughts...

My brother Christian, you forgot in your list that Necros first ranted over masons, accusing us of drugging him and trying to force him to join, and then changed his accusations to the Rosicrucians, and then back to masons. Fact is, Necros is just a confused tin foil hat wearer...

As for aliens, that is a bit of rhetoric, to point out how ridiculous his rants really are... he is clueless, and a demonstration of ignorance in motion. The purpose of this site is to DENY IGNORANCE, which is why he has been repeatedly warned.

As for the FW... no, I know who the mastermind (hahahaha) behind FW is, and it certainly is not necros... he is just a hanger on... he actually thinks FW is the truth

Good to see things are the same around here as ever.

Good work Theron and LTD. I wish I had more time so I could get in my two cents here and there. MrNECROS's comments are as always off base and deluded. It would be amusing if it wasn't so pathetic.

On a positive note I am supposed to go to the local lodge for a kind of get-to-know-you dinner this week. It seems the ball has finally begun rolling. Let the journey commense.


Oh, and BTW good post wecomeinpeace. I am interested to see which way you go with your opinions. If you are an intelligent rational person as you seem to be, there is no doubt in my mind that the trash that comes from Necros and others like him will have a small effect on you if any. Honest questions get honest answers. There are plenty of good Masons on this board who will help you understand. You have to have a little faith, though, there is cerainly alot more that people don't know about Masonry that you simply won't learn without joining. Good luck.

[edit on 10/25/04 by The Axeman]

Brother Theron:

Indeed.

At our Lodge, not everyone is a Master Mason. There are some who are content to stay 1st or 2nd degree. The main reason that I and others of the 1st degree are gently encouraged to advance (it is assumed that we want to) because that will allow us to travel to other Lodges. An apprentice cannot travel without the company of a Master Mason. Also, if you are above the 1st degree, you can siot through more of the Lodge functions and see more of the rituals. So, advancing is a good idea because we will have the opportunity to enjoy Masonry on the same level. But it is not required. You can advance at your own pace, or not at all. Whatever suits you best. In fact, some members who are keen to advance, have to wait now and then due to scheduling challenges.

I apologize if I'm being cryptic here, but I'm cautious about what I am permitted and not permitted to say. I'm not even comfortable with using terms such as "Entered Apprentice" and "Fellow Craft" (there, I said it!)

Anyhow, a person will never be penalized for simply "staying put" at either a particular degree, or even an Officer position. No one is forced to go beyond the 1st degree. Some Lodge members take the first degree and are hardly heard from again. They only show up during certain events, exhange hellos and pleasantries and off they go. No one is forced in any way to advnce to the appendant degrees. Your choice. Masonry is what you make of it. You can simply hang around, come to Lodge and do nothing. Might not help you get the Master's chair, but it's no problem. Do what you like.

For instance, one of my Brothers told me a story about a member:

This member eventually got to a certain Officer position in the Lodge, and he just stayed there, for over 2 years. Didn't want to go further. Well, they supposed he liked it. Although a Brother would ordinarily want to try out the flavour of all the positions, some could care less. So, the person who was supposed to occupy that position next simply "jumped" a position. Turned out nicely, because he is now our Lodge Master, and he got there quicker as a result of our Brother who "nested' at his position. The worst that has ever happened as a result of all this, are a few chuckles over dinner.

Yes, just like a soap opera you can leave and come back months later and the everyone is just as pregnant, dead, near death, cheating, missing, going to prison, in prison, just got out of prison, about to find out ____, and every other possible permutation of the human condition... just ATS doesn't have the commercials.

Good to hear about the dinner, ask questions, see what the guys are like, you'll know if it's for you or not.

Axeman:

Yes, the "open-house" events are the way to go if you choose to become a Mason. I went to three of them, got my application during the first. I attended the others for fun. Enjoy.

Well what finally did it is I was at a local farmer's market, kind of a block party, and the local Masons were out there cooking burgers and 'dogs for charity. I just walked up and started talking to them (most were much older gentlemen - I think there was one guy who might have been right around 30.). It was funny because when I asked them if they were having any open houses or anything like that the guy just cocked his head like he wasn't sure he heard me right (I think he was surprised that someone who looks like me was interested - black T-shirt and long hair and all), and he chuckled and said "Well we would if we had enough people that were interested". I said "Well I know of at least one", we had a laugh and he said to just come by the lodge meeting and have dinner. Seemed like real nice guys, not that I expected anything less.

I appreciate the encouragement guys, and MM - I know for certain that Masonry is for me. I can feel it in my bones. What remains to be seen is if Masonry thinks I am right for it, via the vote.

Thanks again for the well wishes.

Welcome aboard!



I completely agree.



When one joins the Masonic Fraternity (providing that he pays attention), he quickly learns that there is no static Masonic hierarchy, nor are there any "lower level" Masons. All Master Masons are full members of the Fraternity, and are eligible to vote, introduce motions, and hold office. Those who have been elected to leadership positions within the Fraternity serve their terms, then retire to the sidelines after having been replaced by other Brethren. All Masons have the opportunity to advance in Masonic leadership if it is their wish to do so.



The so-called secrets of Freemasonry involve what we call the modes of recognition, as well as certain portions of our ceremonies. Those who have reached the "highest level of the hierarchy", i.e., Officers, are privy to no more secrets than any other members. All esoteric Masonic information is divulged in the ceremony of initiation. For convenience, the Masonic initiation is divided among several steps, called "degrees", that require the Initiate to master the fundamental basis of Masonic philosophy before advancing to more difficult concepts; this is similar to requiring that a student master arithmetic before teaching him algebra.



Some of these have indeed been frauds, some have been basically correct, while most is a mixture of truth and fiction. An example is Jim Shaw, who wrote "The Deadly Deception". Shaw was a 32° KCCH member of the Scottish Rite when he resigned from the fraternity, but falsely claimed in his book he was 33°. He then used an old ritual in Jonathon Blanchard's book "Scotch Rite Masonry Illustrated" to describe his "initiation", and mentioned that a famous minister was present at the time. (Shaw knew that the Rev. Dr. Norman Vincent Peale was a 33° Scottish Rite Mason, and this was no doubt whom he was referring to...but, since this was a fictional account, he didn't name any names, and this is what has led to the false belief that Rev. Billy Graham is a Mason).
But if you take a serious look at anti-Masonic books written by former Masons, you see pretty much the same thing. These people don't claim that Masonry has any evil secrets, they just claim that Masonic universalism in religious tolerance violates their private sectarian beliefs, whatever they may be.



Albert Pike became Grand Commander of the Supreme Council 33° because of his excellent abilities as an administrator, not so much because of his personal philosophical or religious beliefs. Under the leadership of Grand Commander Pike, the Scottish Rite grew from just a couple of thousand members to over a million, and it was Pike who organized the Rite's first charities.
As for "Morals and Dogma", this book is relevant only in the Southern Jurisdiction of the United States, because only in that Jurisdiction are Pike's rituals used (the book is actually a collection of the lectures from the 1° - 32°).
I have studied that book, along with Pike's other writings, for many years, and certainly find nothing embarrasing in them. In actuality, about half of "Morals and Dogma" is composed of long quotes from other philosophers, liberally sprinkled with Pike's personal commentaries.
As for actually agreeing with the book, Pike is clear in the introduction that he does not expect every Mason to agree with it...in fact, Pike himself didn't agree with it all. The purpose of the book was to explain the evolution of religious dogma and moral philosophy from the dawn of man until the present, and naturally many of these beliefs contradict each other. Therefore, the book should be seen as an academic excercise in comparative philosophy rather than as a statement of some sort of Masonic creed.


Fiat Lvx.

Let me call Springer! I think we have a show here.