The 2nd Amendment Verses Mental illness

I understand the purpose of the second amendment, have guns in the hands of the populace, so they can protect themselves. What I don't think the founding fathers could have ever foreseen is the level of mental illness and pure rage that would exist in the 21st Century. I understand why people want to own guns. But what is the solution to the increasing wack jobs that either own guns, or as the recent shooter showed had access to them.
I don't have an answer, but I will admit the guns are not the problem it is the crazies firing them.
More people are under intense stress for a variety of reasons and there ability to cope is diminishing, some express this via anger. American civilization is in serious trouble, and gun ownership is a catch 22 now.

reply to post by Blue_Jay33

What I don't think the founding fathers could have ever foreseen is the level of mental illness and pure rage that would exist in the 21st Century.

There have been plenty of mentally ill people throughout history. Just look at some of the heads of state we’ve seen over the last 100-200 years! Pol Pot? Stalin? Hitler? Jung Il? Ahmadinejad? Milosevic?

Obama!

But what is the solution to the increasing wack jobs that either own guns, or as the recent shooter showed had access to them.

I believe people, as a whole, are more civilized today than any time in history. We just didn’t have a powerful MSM before to politicized and sensationalize every incident that happened.

reply to post by Blue_Jay33

Your point is the disturbing one, isn't it?

As you note in your last lines.....it's a building and evolving situation we're facing now with stress getting worse and people in general starting to show it and crack in some cases. There is no way to anticipate that in gun sales that may have happened long ago as often as recently. Laws change nothing because the problem as you're pointing out, is evolving in real time .....not Congress time and looooong term program time. So it's moot and over one way or the other before a ban would work regardless, if we don't get a handle on why people are going outright postal to begin with.

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
I understand the purpose of the second amendment, have guns in the hands of the populace, so they can protect themselves. What I don't think the founding fathers could have ever foreseen is the level of mental illness and pure rage that would exist in the 21st Century. I understand why people want to own guns. But what is the solution to the increasing wack jobs that either own guns, or as the recent shooter showed had access to them.
I don't have an answer, but I will admit the guns are not the problem it is the crazies firing them.
More people are under intense stress for a variety of reasons and there ability to cope is diminishing, some express this via anger. American civilization is in serious trouble, and gun ownership is a catch 22 now.

They had sanitariums back then. Someone decided that they were inhumane and we no longer have them. Where are the nutters now? On the streets.

There is no catch-22.

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
I understand the purpose of the second amendment, have guns in the hands of the populace, so they can protect themselves. What I don't think the founding fathers could have ever foreseen is the level of mental illness and pure rage that would exist in the 21st Century. - More people are under intense stress for a variety of reasons and there ability to cope is diminishing, some express this via anger. American civilization is in serious trouble, and gun ownership is a catch 22 now.

Finally someone begins to make sense in looking at the whole gun issue.
When people always claim that europe is disarmed I always point out that most european FARMERS own guns. Farms usually have a bits of forest within their lands and the farmer is the gamewarden of his plot. But not assault rifles. Rabbis is a common problem and foxes are in europe mostly to blame. So sure he checks his resident wildlife on his farm Yet the city is pretty gun free, Some european countries, Switzrland for example have ther conscripts bing theri full gear, incl. the AR and ammo HOME. In cas of war these guys then are informed how to report to their units much faster than having to actually 1st go to their respective baes and gear up and then deploy. From the living room to the frontline in an hour or so. Yet the gun violence is absent.
We all agree that we need a permit to drive cars and fly planes and what ever. But we seem to forget that the permit is a misnomer. Permit we associate with taxes and fees to be paid. The permit to sell alcohol in your diner. But this is not what the permit means. The permit is a test of competency! When I hear the gun debates i always hear about the 'safety course'. Thats not enough. Why would I need a gun is the most pressing question. A friend of mine in europe was 17 when his father died and when he was forced into the postition to take over the family farm. With this responsibility came also the need to patrol his little forest. He went for 9 months to night school to obtain his permit. It was not just how to handle a gun, what game is in season at what month and so forth. A lot of the class was concentrated about his rights, do and don'ts of how to be a 'citizen enforcer/citizen arrest'' simply in apprehending a poacher for example or assist in a manhunt on a dangerous fugitive. A scenario mostlikely never to happen. Yet he had to do it. When is a holding a gun cuasually o problem and what move fo example means 'business'? all things they crammed down into his 17 yo brain.
Whee I have a problem with ameican gun culture is thei argument that the citzen needs arms to protect itself from a rouge government. Well anyone who has looked at revolutions can se onething over and over. That the citizens simply take the guns fom the local cops and army. Any "partisan/guerreilla" manual descibes in detials HOW to get the 1st guns. Revolutions also tend to split the armys into 2 camps, those who join those who devend the status quo. IF a nation/people WANT a revolution they will do so with guns or with pitchfork. It has always been this way and always will be so, no matter how sophisticated the governemnt is with its police, secret services and army. And once a bullet is fired it can't be called back. And unlike an out of control car that I can SEE, I can't see a 223cal coming at me past the speed of sound. So the more densly populated a region is the less the need of guns, since it is not a question so much as to what I shoot at, but rather what will I hit when i MISS?
Add to this the stress of our modern society, we dont wake up with the rooster no more and go to sleep at sundown. Add to this the many medicated people with reactions to drugs we have not even yet a clue what they can do? and you asking for a nightmare. And also as brutal as it may sound, many of today's people would not have made it to adult hood back then. Many today are alive with illnesses and disabilities that would have had them die as children. Heavily medicated and a ticking time bomb
Parents both are working, economic insecurity, stress and no supervision and w got all kinds of apparently "normal" behaving people with severe mental problems. Just take a look at the mugshots of many serial killerrs. They look so "Normal" almost handsome! So the weapon is a tool, but this tool has to be guarded. And then again when people argue a knife can do the same. Not too often. Also now all will point at the sicko in china that cut down 20 some people. A knife is close up and personal and this means close up and personal the attacker can also be manhandled by a few other guys. And it does not take a black belt to knock him out. In many places a bar fight is quickly ended by simple average people joining 3-4 bodies together and overpowering the attacker.

How are mentally disturbed young men being identified and set up to be the patsy in domestic covert actions designed for 'problem-reaction-solution' programming of lawmakers and the general public in order to further the 'New World Order' agenda?

Early reports from Sandy Hook mentioned two or multiple shooters involved. This was reduced to one 'lone nut' as was the case in Aurora and many, many cases going all the way back to the original 'lone nut' in modern history: Lee Harvey Oswald.

Covert actions are usually set up in ways that one 'lone nut' (who fits the profile) is blamed and then it's an open and quickly shut case, case closed. This m.o. has been done successfully for years, RFK hit, MLK hit, mass shootings, John Lennon hit, you name it. As soon as lawmakers and the public are satisfied that the 'lone nut' in the media did it all by his lonesome, the secret agenda moves forward. Even in the case of 9/11, Osama bin Laden emerged quickly as the media's 'lone nut' just as Saddam Hussein had been the 'lone nut' who gave the USA 'no choice' but to invade Iraq and in so doing make the military-industrial complex and defense contractors much wealthier in the process.

I don't have any evidence that Sandy Hook was a covert op. But I do not rule it out, seeing as there is now such a big push to ban at least some types of firearms.

I think that the early makers of automobiles would be horrified at the annual statistics on automobile crash deaths also!

America has a culture of gun worship. Guns are not the problem, but we put guns on a holy pedestal. We immortalize killers, from Billy the Kid, to Bonnie and Clyde, to today's sick bastards. We remember the murdered for a brief time, but always remember the murderer.

Add to that, there are too many gun owners who are simply not responsible owners. They leave their weapons out in the open at home, loaded for the kid to find. Whether that kid just accidentally fires off a round or takes it to school, there is absolutely nothing in place to make a gun owner responsible.

Consider this: If someone get into an auto accident, kills the driver of the other vehicle, and is found to be intoxicated, the bars he went to, and the bartenders who served him are all liable criminally and civilly. Switch out a drunk driver for a gun taken by the owners son, who then shoots up a school of kids, and neither the gun owner nor the gun seller have any liability...

If you can't keep your weapons safely locked away, you shouldn't have them, as you are simply not responsible enough to own them.

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
I understand the purpose of the second amendment, have guns in the hands of the populace, so they can protect themselves. What I don't think the founding fathers could have ever foreseen is the level of mental illness and pure rage that would exist in the 21st Century.

This is no mental illness, but rather mental programming. If you want no gun related crimes, you just ban first person shooters and unrated movies or at least restrict access to them for those who are mentally 'ill'. The rest is a pile of BS. Without the model to follow they won't be able to invent their own. At least it could greatly reduce the number of crimes.

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


People are going to continue to get crazier until McIndustrialized society lets go of its arrogant ethnocentrism long enough to learn and practice the wisdom of traditional societies. We must stop banning discussion of and research into entheogens so that they can be used to treat the mentally ill.

If we can't get over ourselves long enough to do that, then maybe we don't deserve to make it to the 22nd century.

This was a tragedy, but hardly anything new. Mass murder by crazy individuals has been around a long time. There is no more of it taking place now than in the past. The largest mass murder of school children in the US was in 1929 and it didn't involve any firearms. The largest mass killing of school children in the world that I know of at a school took place in 2004 in Beslan Russia, with at least 186 children killed and not a single firearm or bomb used was likely legally owned. As far as mass murders by an individual in general. The largest in the US was in 1990 with 87 people killed and the weapon was a jug of gasoline. China has had a very big problem of nut cases breaking in schools and knifing are bludgeoning random children to death. Mass murder by nut cases has always happened and will always happen, with guns or without. In 2003 a lone nut case in South Korea killed 198 people. His only stated reason was that he was suicidal but didn't want to die alone, his weapon was gasoline by the way. There are hundreds of mass killings by lone individuals or disenfranchised groups that could be named throughout history and all these murders throughout history will not even add up to 0.001% of the mass murders committed by legitimately recognized governments against there own people just in the last 100 years. In each case of mass murder by the government, the people were first disarmed. These are just a few facts people should keep in mind before they let their emotions about this tragedy override there reasoning.

reply to post by billy82269

With respect to your points, I wouldn't compare the Beslan School Massacre to this in any form. Those were Terrorists who saw themselves as soldiers and basically in a head to head fight with the Russian Government while using little kids in the middle of the whole thing. It was as political as it was evil and I have to say...however bad we see it in the West, Russia and their close enemies seem to have a whole different definition of atrocity. Hopefully, it remains that way.

I think the only comparison is that first responders and those who tried to stop the Beslan massacre are screwed up for life about the same as I expect many of the guys in CT will be after having to work that scene there. That's the whole second tragedy out of these incidents......the people who have to work the crime and clean the aftermath.

I think the wholesale and casual nature of the violence IS getting worse though and measurably so. The frequency of it, if not the outright severity is getting a little ridiculous. It's far far too simple to suggest the weapon being chosen in the select examples is the culprit....but the fact people seem to be seeing life as less and less valuable is hard to argue, IMO.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

Beslan was an act of willful mass murder committed by a disenfranchised group of nut cases. You are right, it doesn't compare and was much worse. A Beslan style attack by terrorist in the US has been one of the greatest fears of US LE since it occurred. Gun control would never stop a group from perpetrating an attack like that, not much would short of a company of soldiers stationed at every school in the nation.
You really believe life is less valued now than in the past? I would say that life is more valued now than in the past and that is the reason these tragedies seem so horrendous to us now. I also believe and history shows that we have no more violence now than in the past. The thing is, that now that violence touches each and every one of us through a TV or computer screen and we are bombarded with it. Something that happened to someone else hundreds or thousands of miles away is now right there in front of you even as it is taking place. This has never been the case in history and is the real cause of your perception.

Some posters aren't understanding what I am saying, I have different thread where I discussed how many more people are on legal drugs because they can't cope. In fact a major company had it's mental & emotional support drugs through it's insurance program rise 70% in 10 years. These are from people depressed or full of anxiety, they can't cope with the stress of whatever life has thrown there way. Some may have lost there job, some may have had there spouse leave them, maybe they feel trapped at very bad job, some were abused as children.....whatever causes it, and sometimes it's just chemistry in the brain not situational.
And more people are snapping.
I have had to calm myself down many a time on the road because of fools driving like insane manics.

My point is you can't blame or lock up all these people, a gun owner could be fine today, but then he loses his job after 15 years and comes home early to find his wife with another man in his bed.... and this triggers a crazy reaction with a gun. I am saying our society is causing way more stress than it did 100 years ago. That coupled with a processed diet effects the mind and emotions. It's a bigger problem.

Anybody who says well let's just lock all the crazies up or don't let a mentally unstable person own a gun doesn't understand the issue at all, it is much much bigger than that.

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


Did you ever stop to think that these people are so stressed out because the way they were taught life is through school, media and popular culture and their expectations of life don't match the realities of life? Realities that have existed for countless generations before. Our society has no more stress than it ever did, in fact with modern social safety nets I'd say it has less.

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
Some posters aren't understanding what I am saying, I have different thread where I discussed how many more people are on legal drugs because they can't cope.

There is a world of difference between entheogens and pharmaceuticals. Until we get over ourselves long enough to learn the difference we will continue getting crazier.

I doubt that McIndustrialized societies have what it takes to solve this problem. Too foolish and ignorant and too hooked on technology and consumerism and social media.

reply to post by billy82269


Then why all the legal and illegal drug use, even excluding alcohol people think they are using to medicate ?

What you say is true, I agree, but we have an issue that is tied to gun use and abuse and can't be ignored.

There is no easy answers, personally I think it has something to do with a decline in general morality in civilization, it's unintended consequences was more stress, mentally and emotionally.
So many gun owners and their families are effected.

Originally posted by billy82269
reply to post by Blue_Jay33

 

Did you ever stop to think that these people are so stressed out because the way they were taught life is through school, media and popular culture and their expectations of life don't match the realities of life? Realities that have existed for countless generations before. Our society has no more stress than it ever did, in fact with modern social safety nets I'd say it has less.

I would say its just the contrary! We have a 24/7/365 society today. We have too many tools and machinery to control today that demand absolute sobriety! We have a reason why we look at a guy with a beer at 8 am and call him an Alki. While in the pre industrial times a 9 am beer was a refreshment. Alcohol also kept the bacteria out of the water and food. We rose at sun up and went to bed at sundown. Just for a change go and take a week long meditation 'holiday' at a monetsary or go and live a historical reenactment and see how tha natural day and night cycle takes over your system. Even just 30 years ago we had no cellphones so if not at home no one answered. Today we can be called 24/7. We no longer have a family where the man works and has enough to feed the family and the wife keeps the house and cares for the kids with the grandparents helping in the baby sitting. Look at the school schedules of kids oday. 3 om shool out, 4 pm soccer practice , at 6 ballet and so on and on. When do we have time to relax?

The OP is correct in pointing out that our modern day society has literally fallen off of a cliff and landed into a huge pile of crazy.

We are overpopulated with mentally unstable people, whether they are currently unstable or capable of becoming unstable when faced with stressful modern day problems.

How many people are on pharmaceuticals of some kind ?
How many people are pouring their hearts out to psychologists/psychiatrists ?
How many people are unsatisfied with their life situation ?
How many people are depressed ?
How many people are angry at the powers that be ?
How many people are struggling from one paycheque to the next ?
How many people are both mentally and physically unhealthy in one way, shape, or form ?
How many people feel pressured to keep up with the Joneses ?
How many people are living in domestic un-bliss ?

Man, the list goes on and on.

Add to that a dangerous weapon (or two or three) that's easily accessable, easy to operate (even a 5 year old can figure it out), and easy to cause mass chaos in mere minutes... and we've literally got an uncontrollable helter skelter situation on our hands.

There is no such thing as an easy fix to this situation... and that's the scariest thought of all.

So some might be reading this and say, "yeah there are tons of crazy's out there, that's why I need a gun, and I need to carry it with me" And thus the cycle is perpetuated, as the person thinking that might be sane today, but a month from now, maybe they are the crazy one, because of something that has happened.