Set the gun debate aside for a moment and answer one question please...

Originally posted by khimbar
No. And here's why.

"But you can't just leave it at that!" said Anathema, pushing forward. "Think of all things you could do! Good things!"
"Like what?" said Adam suspiciously.
"Well ... you could bring all the whales back, to start with."
He put his head on one side. "An' that'd stop people killing them, would it?"
She hesitated. It would have been nice to say yes.
"An' if people do start killing 'em, what would you have me do about 'em?" said Adam. "No. I reckon I'm getting the hang of this now. Once I start messing around like that, there'd be no stoppin' it. Seems to me, the only sensible thing is for people to know if they kill a whale, they've got a dead whale."

Good Omens.
Terry Prachett and Neil Gaiman

Very interesting reply! Food for thought back at me....I think I want to read this book now.
Thanks!

Excellent question it goes to the heart of the problem, and helps me to understand Isa 5:20-23 much better.

Isa 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
21 Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!
22 Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:
23 Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!

Prov 8:33 Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.
34 Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors.
35 For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the Lord.
36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.


Br Ben

I would send an abortion doctor back in time to visit his mom. Oh wait, a coat hanger can be used for an abortion. I guess we must ban coat hangers now and start hanging our coats on coat trees. oh wait again, who is to say that trees don't have conscience as well, and that every time we sit around a campfire and rail against our neighbor and ourselves and the universe in general, we aren't doing it the expense of some stately oak and his beautiful sapling? In this culture of death, in which we refuse to acknowledge the certainty of our mortality, we have forgotten how to celebrate life. Either kill us all, and let God sort us out, or how bout we get back to living?

From a teacher's perspective.

I would gladly give my life to protect my children. Any adult would do the same. But arming all teachers isn't the way to handle it.

Think of it this way. There's a shooter in the building, classes are in lockdown, police are doing the SWAT thing looking for the shooter. I'm in my room, huddled in front of my terrified kids, a gun in my hands.

As son as that door opens I would shoot. And what if it was an officer or fellow teacher?


I don't want a gun. I don't want that extra burden and responsibility. Now, give me a taser, and I'd be okay with it.

I just think the more people who have guns in such a confusing situation, the more people will end up hurt.

reply to post by smyleegrl


Exactly, there are other ways. Death doesn't have to come in to the equation, for any party.

I honestly do not believe the shooter involved deserved death either. He clearly wasn't of "right" mind.

Another way of looking at it would be how would those children relate to their teacher in future, having watched them shoot and kill someone? We are talking tiny kids here rather than (arguably!) more rational teenagers.

And frankly, why should teachers be given that extra responsibility?

Originally posted by Flavian

And frankly, why should teachers be given that extra responsibility?

What extra responsibility?

If Ive been carrying since I was 21 and become a teacher at age 30 how is it an extra responsibility to keep doing the thing I have been doing everyday for the past 9 years?

It's a pointless nuisance to be told I cant do what I have been doing everyday for the past 9 years in one arbitrary place.

What I've been pondering lately is some sort of bullet-proof metal doors that can seal off a section of every classroom. They come down from the ceiling and can only be raised via special code. Kids would then be in a safe area. And just wait for rescue.

I don't know the logistics of this, or if its even feasible...but I'd rather do this than carry a gun.

reply to post by thisguyrighthere


Extra responsibility for those of us who aren't recreational shooters or have concealed and carry permits.

Originally posted by tjack
You don't even have to answer it with a post, just think about it and answer yourself.

If you could snap your fingers, and magically transport a gun through time and into the hands of the principal and/or teachers of Sandy Hook as the tragedy was starting to unfold, "Would you do it?"

Be honest with yourself. Would you?

Thanks in advance for your courtesy.

Yes, I would.

But, if you knew that this was happening in a school right now, and you could click your fingers to make every single gun in America useless, would you do it?

Be honest,

Originally posted by smyleegrl
reply to post by thisguyrighthere

 

Extra responsibility for those of us who aren't recreational shooters or have concealed and carry permits.

I haven't seen anyone advocate forcing teachers to carry. What I (and others) are advocating is that people who have CCWs and are teachers be allowed to carry in schools just as they would carry in other public places.

reply to post by Doc Gator


Now that would be okay with me, so long as they have to keep up certification and everything.

reply to post by smyleegrl


Thanks for your perspective, and thanks for being a teacher. You folks have one of the toughest jobs imaginable. I have school-age children myself and this event has caused me to do a lot of deep thinking.

Interesting that you'd accept being armed with a taser, I get that and understand the "extra burden" as to why you wouldn't want a firearm. It's better than your bare hands, for sure.

reply to post by Doc Gator


Doesn't affect me (in the UK). However, as an ex teacher i would be concerned about guns being left unattended, accidental discharge etc.

I really like Smyleegrl's idea of a safe area. I suspect it would cost a fortune but frankly, if it isn't a problem for the Fed to print more money for QE, then i would suspect printing money for something like this would get popular support. You would hope so anyway as it least it wouldn't be wasted on bailouts for the financially inept companies out there.........

Originally posted by smyleegrl
What I've been pondering lately is some sort of bullet-proof metal doors that can seal off a section of every classroom. They come down from the ceiling and can only be raised via special code. Kids would then be in a safe area. And just wait for rescue.

I don't know the logistics of this, or if its even feasible...but I'd rather do this than carry a gun.

I suggested panic rooms between classes.

If a teacher hears a shot, they hit a panic button, the doors of the panic rooms all open (they could be disguised behind pin boards etc) all internal doors of the school close, all kids from two classes go into the room between and hit a button, sealing the panic room doors. It's equipped with a considerable medical kit, supplies to last three days, a phone directly connected to the local police chief and control room, which is immediately manned by all available non-responding officers (could be 911 staff).

The same time the panic button is pressed an audible "shooter" alarm sounds in the local police, fire service and hospitals. All are immediately on route or preparing for casualties.

The internal doors of the school all have bullet proof glass and internal shielding, with reinforcement against explosives.

This would be expensive to do in every single school, but I think the NRA should pay for it.

reply to post by tjack


I'd only accept the taser if it came with a LOT of training.

Here's something else to consider. I read in a journal (can't remember where, sorry) that teachers were among the most stressed and most medicated for stress of all the professions. More of us get treated for depression, anxiety, and stress related issues.

Do we really want to arm those teachers who are already stressed so much? Just a thought.

Originally posted by detachedindividual

Originally posted by tjack
You don't even have to answer it with a post, just think about it and answer yourself.

If you could snap your fingers, and magically transport a gun through time and into the hands of the principal and/or teachers of Sandy Hook as the tragedy was starting to unfold, "Would you do it?"

Be honest with yourself. Would you?

Thanks in advance for your courtesy.

Yes, I would.

But, if you knew that this was happening in a school right now, and you could click your fingers to make every single gun in America useless, would you do it?

Be honest,

Absolutely, but only if it was every gun in the world, not just America. Fair enough?

edit to add: GREAT question!

I don't think anyone can specifically know how they would react in a situation such as this until it actually happens to them. So this thread is a bit pointless really.

Even if you were a trained, responsable gun owner and were carrying. Fight or flight would still come into the equation.

there could be a few different scenarios;

You act calm, manage to maim or shoot the perpetrator before any damage is done and it's all over.

You act somewhat calm, manage to maim or kill the perpetrator, but you were not fast enough and the perp was still able to injure and kill, but not as many, leaving you with awful guilt that you were not able to stop the perp in time.

You get scared, hide under a desk and take pop shots without thinking rationally, missing the perpetrator and possibly injuring or killing others in the process.

You completely freeze up and are unable to do anything.

If all Teachers were allowed to carry guns in schools, not eveyone would be able to act the same in a mass shooting scenario where their own lives and the lives of the Children they teach are in danger.

Also, do you want your Children in Schools where everyone is carrying a gun?

People may have background checks when they purchase a weapon, but background checks can't predict the future. What if due to a build up of stress a Teacher flips out and shoots their class up?

reply to post by skitzspiricy


All true points that I don't disagree with, however we know what the alternative is as we've lived it over and over....fish in a barrel.

reply to post by tjack


Sorry for going off topic OP but hows about rather than any new legislation, the existing legislation is properly enforced (regarding checks, monitoring, etc). Hand out huge penalties (for example 15 years prison, no parole) for any found to be violating.

That way, America gets to keep it's guns and those that aren't fit to hold them really won't get the chance to buy them, Lets be honest, if you are a gun shop owner and you face threat of a minimum 15 years for failing to carry out proper checks, etc, you would do everything in your power to ensure that ALL checks are carried out.

Really, it is the same as many other issues that blow up in the media. New legislation isn't needed, proper enforcement of existing legislation is needed.