Standing water on Mars in PIA16550

Originally posted by qmantoo
Titled - Layered Martian Outcrop 'Shaler' in 'Glenelg' Area

To me, this is showing standing water beneath these shale-like ledges. I can see the reflection - just like you can when you go for a walk beside the river here on Earth.

If you had not been TOLD over and over again there was no water currently on Mars, wouldn't you just assume these were puddles of water? It suddenly came into my mind that this is what we are being shown here and maybe this is why the picture was taken. We all know that the best way to hide something is in plain sight and so to me, this is what it is.

C'mon scientists of the world - dont be so fixed - NASA are showing you this to move you towards an understanding that there is water on Mars. Realise what you are being shown.

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Original links
JPL.NASA
Photojournal page with tif format (not that it is much better at 8Mb)

Of course, I suppose it could be just me 'seeing' what I want to see. :-)

i too can see what appears to be gin clear water ,in some parts it looks like you can see through

it like as if there was water there ,

and where there is no water it looks like theres no water

so ill star and flag you for this

because even if there was water and it does look like there is

no one will say oh theres water on mars

Originally posted by qmantoo
I have been wrong before and I am quite prepared to be wrong again, but.... how do we explain the grey area and the dark shadow area.

As I said above, the grey area has NO detail, and the shadow dark area HAS detail in it. This is exactly how an area of water would appear with shadow on part of it and reflection of the lighter sky on the other part of it. This is what we have here. The image above with the two red arrows is correct. The area in question is the area the lower red arrow is pointing at.

The grey area appears to be finer sand and the more detailed area below seems to be pebble like. Think of a snow drift for the grey area. The shadow area is just that, a shadow of the rock above.

One thing I will say however is that the grey area and the more detailed area resemble many of the banks along my spring fed creek where the finer sand collects above the pebbles. So this may be a sign of water (who really knows for sure) but with all of the weather on Mars I would go with wind blown rather than water driven.

The grey area appears to be finer sand and the more detailed area below seems to be pebble like. Think of a snow drift for the grey area.

Yes 'appears' is the right word, however the finer sand also follows the outline of the upper slate part and this would not make sense. The whole area would be finer sand if this was the case. What you are calling the finer sand area goes abruptly into what I call shadow area where you can see the larger pebbles of the bottom.

Get the file and enlarge it to double the size and actually look at the part of the picture near that flat sloping slate piece on the left. In the shadow areas you can see the bottom and in the reflective sky areas you cannot.

reply to post by qmantoo


Liquid water cannot exist on Mars, the atmospheric pressure and temperature is simply too low.

reply to post by qmantoo


Explanation: S&F!



I agree that at face value I thought it was a pool of water!

However ... it may be a pool of some other liquid ... and I shall try and find a naturally occuring substance that fits within all the claimed 'known' facts to do with the Martian environment where Curiosity is located.

Yet I also know that where Curiosity is placed on Mars is possibly one of the ONLY places on mars where water could possibly even be in a liquid format [ie without directly sublimating from solid to gas and vice versa] due to its triple point nature and the 'special local environment' of the crater.

So lets not rule it out just yet.

Personal Disclosure: There are several other anomalous things in the photo that I would like to discuss .. but not here and not now.

It's finer and darker dust, not standing water.

If it was standing water, there would be bright spots where the sunlight hits it.

The other problem, as a previous poster has noted, the surface air pressure on Mars is simply not enough for standing water to exist.

Here on Earth, the boiling point for water at sea level is 100 deg C (or 212 deg F), that's under 101.325 kPa (kilopascals).

On Mars, the average surface pressure is only 0.636 kPa. Water will boil at 26 deg C (80 deg F) at only 3.0 kPa, and Mars surface pressure is much, much lower than that.

So any liquid water that makes it to the surface of Mars will sublimate quickly, leaving no standing water at all.

Would liquid water not simply boil off if exposed , assuming the temp was even high enough to allow water to exist on the surface of Mars ?

Explanation: Okay ...

Can Liquid Water Exist on Present-Day Mars? (27 Mar 2001 (Source: NASA Astrobiology Institute) NASA Astrobiology Institute. By staff writer, Science Communications [solarsytem.nasa.gov]

Many scientists believe that liquid water does not and cannot exist on the surface of Mars today. Although surface water may have been plentiful in Mars' past, they say, the current conditions of freezing temperatures and a thin atmosphere mean that any water on Mars would have to be deep underground. Moreover, if any water ice existing on Mars were somehow warmed, it still wouldn't melt into water. The thin martian atmosphere instead would cause the ice to sublime directly into water vapor.

But Dr. Gilbert Levin of Spherix, Inc., and his son, Dr. Ron Levin of MIT's Lincoln Laboratory, believe differently. They say that liquid water-in limited amounts and for limited times-can exist on the surface of present-day Mars. They have based their theory on data collected from the Viking landers and on the 1997 Mars Pathfinder mission.

This father-son team has suggested a diurnal water cycle on Mars: water vapor in the air freezes out by night, then during the day the ice melts. As the day progresses, the heat of the Sun causes this liquid water to evaporate back into the air.

It has already been established from Viking photographs that a thin frost does form overnight on certain areas of the martian surface. Unlike many scientists, the Levins believe that this frosty layer does not instantly revert back into water vapor when the Sun rises. They suggest that, in the early hours of the martian morning, the atmosphere more than one meter above the martian surface remains too cold to hold water vapor. So the moisture stays on the ground.

Data from the Mars Pathfinder support this theory, as the Pathfinder temperature readings noted that temperatures one meter above the surface were often dozens of degrees colder than the temperatures closer to the ground.

This layer of cold air, say the Levins, provides a form of insulation, trapping the water moisture below. Since the atmosphere is too cold to hold the water as vapor and the ground is warm enough to melt the ice, the water melts into a liquid. This liquid water, the Levins believe, remains on the surface until the temperature of the atmosphere rises enough to allow the water to evaporate. In this way, they argue, the martian soil becomes briefly saturated with liquid water every day.

"The meteorological data fully confirm the presence of liquid water in the topsoil each morning," says Gilbert Levin. "The black-and-white as well as the color images show slick areas that may well be moist patches."

Such a scenario is certainly possible, admits Christopher McKay. McKay is a planetary scientist at NASA Ames Research Center in Mountain View, CA, and a member of the NASA Astrobiology Institute.

"At the surface the frost may melt to form a very short-lived layer of liquid," says McKay. "The experiments show that this is the case." But, he cautions, "how long it persists is not yet accurately determined.

Water on Mars [wiki]

The Phoenix lander exposed ice as it landed, watched chunks of ice disappear, detected snow falling, and even saw drops of liquid water.

Recent images have also detected yearly changes on some slopes that may have been caused by liquid water. Although Mars is very cold at present, water could exist as a liquid if it contains salts. Salt is expected to be on the Martian surface.

Perchlorate (ClO4), a strong oxidizer, was confirmed to be in the soil. The chemical when mixed with water can greatly lower freezing points, in a manner similar to how salt is applied to roads to melt ice. Perchlorate may be allowing small amounts of liquid water to form on Mars today.

On July 31, 2008, NASA announced that Phoenix confirmed the presence of water ice on Mars. During the initial heating cycle of a new sample, the Thermal and Evolved-Gas Analyzer's (TEGA) mass spectrometer detected water vapor when the sample temperature reached 0 °C.[110] Liquid water cannot exist on the surface of Mars with its present low atmospheric pressure, except at the lowest elevations for short periods.

Personal Disclosure: Uhm ... Houston ... we have a problem! :shk:

Very good find. Very clear picture too! And not the only standing water. They photoshop the other pictures of water/lakes.

Originally posted by Meldionne1
I'm. Ot seeing the water..where is the water? ...the big slate rocks in the middle look like a big fossil to me, or flat fish rib bones...just saying you can see what anyone wants to see...

OMG, eyes engage. The rocks are standing in a glistening puddle of WHAT PREY TELL?

Do you think that a bunch of words covers the evidence in a picture?

Originally posted by Chadwickus
reply to post by qmantoo

 

There is water on Mars.

It's just not in liquid form.

I can't see what you're talking about in the pictures either, can you circle it or something?

This pic is LIQUID FORM.

Words don't cover evidence, and anyone using that trick should be in jail for enslaving humans.

photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov...

One example, and doesnt need to be circled. Where the word 10 cm is to the left, is written over a puddle of water that then you see, under the rock.

It did look a lot like water at first glance...but I'm almost 100% sure it's just sand.

Won't even address each comment individually. There is no, maybe it's sand, maybe water. Its 100% definitely water as all pictures on earth like that are, and our eyes work.

This thread has a NASA picture of standing water, a big puddle, so why doesn't it have a 1000 flags and stars?

I'll monitoring this one.

Because if there is barely an ordinary citizen on ATS that might make sense, however, otherwise, there would be no free will left on this planet and I'll be starting SOS, all day long and each night for a massive intervention from on high, if thats the case, and I suggest everyone join in. Without free will, any semblance of school is gone.

Anonymity is a wonderful thing, otherwise lying and pretending you can't see an obvious thing, wouldn't look good on many careers. A doctor for example who can't see something would not be considered competent, same with any kind of scientist, etc.

Originally posted by Unity_99
Won't even address each comment individually. There is no, maybe it's sand, maybe water. Its 100% definitely water as all pictures on earth like that are, and our eyes work.

This thread has a NASA picture of standing water, a big puddle, so why doesn't it have a 1000 flags and stars?

I'll monitoring this one.

Because if there is barely an ordinary citizen on ATS that might make sense, however, otherwise, there would be no free will left on this planet and I'll be starting SOS, all day long and each night for a massive intervention from on high, if thats the case, and I suggest everyone join in. Without free will, any semblance of school is gone.

edit on 18-12-2012 by Unity_99 because: (no reason given)

Nope, sorry, not standing water. Doesn't even have the right look to be water, unless you think some alien came by with a stick and stirred it up to make it muddy looking.

Again, at 0.636 kPa surface pressure, standing water can not exist. It will very quickly sublimate directly into what little atmosphere is there, or, if it happens to be a very cold day on Mars that day will freeze solid.

I swear the educational system is really letting people down. Can't even understand basic science.

sigh.

The trouble is we have been duped to believe that what we see is not possible. Hence all of you are telling me that this CANNOT be water due to what we have been told by scientists and what the instruments have reported. There do seem to be a lot of people saying this but then if I was a Conspiracy Theorist then I would say that threads like this attract the ones who want to keep the illusion of Mars going.

OK, so it may not be actual water - H2O but it may be some other kind of liquid. If is is, then we are STILL not being told the truth since NASA are not acknowledging it or investigating it. I realise it is a big IF, but many different people have spotted what they think is liquid on Mars and they are not all following one report but using different evidence to bolster their case. Really, the circumstancial evidence for a water-like liquid on Mars is growing.

Has anyone explained to me yet how the shadow area can show the detail and the reflection area can not show any detail? Oh.. because it is fine sand and been blown into that particular rock shadow pattern. Amazing this martian wind.

Yes, I think there are a lot of other anomalies in this picture too, so maybe we start another thread?

reply to post by eriktheawful


YES IT IS, NOT HARD TO SEE, NO STRETCH, FIRST THING YOU NOTICE WHEN YOU LOOK AT PICTURE: BIG PUDDLE.

I don't know if its drinkable, of if has a strange gas in it, but its what we here on earth call WATER!

Its very clear looking water however.

Its in liquid form.

I really suggest a visit to the optometrist.

Here we have a so called legitimate photo by most people's views, it's NASA, of standing liquid water, and the skeptics are using the I CAN'T SEE IT, WHEN ITS OBVIOUS, and no normal human being would do this, but I'm not allowed by the rules to state how sickening and twisted this is and what it implies instantly for anyone making a post like that, because ordinary people wouldn't. WOW.

Is that how they handle outstanding evidence that would make history: I can't see it!

reply to post by qmantoo


So: every observatory on Earth is in on the conspiracy?

Every place of higher education that has science and astronomy departments are in on the conspiracy?

Every space agency in the world (there is more than just NASA) that are from other countries are in on the conspiracy?

That the conspiracy is: Mars has a thicker atmosphere than we are being told and standing water can exist because..........why exactly?

You see, in your OP you made your very first mistake:

You asked people to accept as fact that they are being lied to. And by doing so it means that standing water on Mars must be a fact, no mater how physically impossible it is.

All based on you: You must pretend that you are being lied to.

Why lie about the atmosphere on Mars (an atmosphere that can be studied from a MULTITUDE of facilities around the world)?

Why lie that there is standing water there?

To cover something up?

What exactly are they covering up?

reply to post by GoldenBrain71


I stand corrected.