A worrying thought about The Divine

This thought has been worrying me from time to time, but lately more than usually.

As an incomplete and mistaking, limited human being - that is like a grain of sand in a galaxy - I can never hope to understand or comprehend the Universe or The Creator of it fully.

But I have been pondering about why and how was everything created. Did the Omnipotent Being become bored? Couldn't He cure his boredom with his omnipotence (which would make him non-omnipotent)?

According to one source, the Universe used to be just bright, sparkling energy, in it's purest form, and stayed that way for aeons. Then it suddenly started transforming itself, until different dimensions and layers were formed, and finally, the physical plane - and all that. The aforementioned source explains how there was no 'big bang', but more like 'descension of spirit into the plane of physical existence from higher planes, forming matter out of itself'. Then billions of suns were born into the misty-like 'substance', and twirling in a familiar vortex pattern, matter was gathered into ... well, in any case.

My point is that if the Omnipotent Being formed the Universe out of itself because of some reason, (and He must have had a good reason - but what? My theory is that although he could -know- everything, -be- everywhere and -do- anything and everything, there was ONE thing he couldn't do, be or know --- how to be NON-Omnipotent! So He fragmented himself into clueless bits who, can't do much (in comparison to Omnipotence) and can only exist locally, within the space of one fragment at a time - of course this process needed to be 'supervised', so he left half of Himself in the Omnipotent state, and the other half was made to experience this 'adventure'. And when the other half 'returns', a real experience richer, then the previously Omnipotent half would get his turn, and the other half would supervise - they would switch places, in effect) he must have KNOWN beforehand, what will happen.

And he still did it.

I mean, you can't be OmniPOTENT without being OmniSCIENT as well. And you can't be both OmniSCIENT and OmniPOTENT without also being OmniPRESENT (I know, this can be debated, but I have come to this conclusion, and for the purposes of my point, I am going to take it as given).

So, the Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnipresent being knew full well that there would be a planet Earth, there would be murders, torture, wars, bloodshed, there would be all kinds of pollutions, poisons, drugs, toxins and horrible, pointless destruction of many kinds. There would be pain, immense physical, psychological, emotional and spiritual pain! There would be such horrors that I can't even think about them without starting to feel awful physically. And there would be WARS.

I understand the laws of Karma, the concept of Free Will, how 'forced good' is not actually good at all - there has to be a selection of 'evil' to choose from for the 'choice to be good' to have any value, and so on.

But what I don't understand is - WHY create everything this exact way, when he knew what was to come? Did he _WANT_ wars, misery, pain, murder, toxins, poisons, violence and pollution? I mean, he was (and is) OMNIPOTENT, for crying out loud! He can create ANY kind of spiritual evolution or 'wild adventure' for himself (or anyone, if there is any 'one' outside of Him anyway) He wants! Does it REALLY have to be THIS EXACT WAY? I mean, it's true that He didn't create wars (directly), humans did - and He didn't pollute the planet, humans did - and so on.

But he _KNEW_ it was going to happen! Otherwise He couldn't have been OmniScient! And as I said before, it's pretty much impossible to be OmniPotent without being OmniScient (all three come with the package - if you have one, you have all the others - even if it at first seems this is not necessarily the case, for example with 'omniscience').

So my question is: Did the Great Spirit INTENTIONALLY create this kind of a future (or rather, intentionally NOT STOP it developing this exact way, although he had millions of years and plenty of opportunities to divert the direction of events even before the planet Earth was even formed!)?

How can we think of The Great Spirit as "GOOD", if he willingly let all this happen? I mean, why even create pain? Why create 'evil'? Why create people that wage wars? Why create selfish bastards? WHY?

At least couldn't there have been some kind of 'safeguards', or is free will really WORTH all this murder, war, etc.? Isn't that quite a hefty price to pay for free will (that's going to be manipulated until people are slaves anyway)?

I mean - I'd rather be a slave than have someone murdered! Omnipotent Being could have left the physical plane completely out, so that it would never have existed, He could have changed things so that spiritual evolution would be painless and euphoric from the beginning to the end, and yet just as meaningful and eventful and glorious and great (after all, he IS OMNIPOTENT, isn't He?)!

So the question really is - is the Omnipotent Being sort of 'evil', wanting people to wage wars (because he could have stopped all that from happening before any human souls were even created)?

Or.. could it be that the being that Created us, ISN'T Omnipotent - or Omniscient, or even Omnipresent? Just really, really, really, really powerful, but not ALL-powerful? Could it be that He made a mistake?

I mean, either it's purposeful, which makes it mean (I would never let things develop into what they are now, if I could help it - why would the Great Spirit be more evil than me?), or it's a mistake, which makes the Being not-so-Omnipotent after all.

If it's mean, we can't really say that The Great Spirit is GOOD...

If it's a mistake, we can't really say that The Omnipotent Being is really all that Omnipotent!

What was His motive for letting all this evolve this exact way? Why didn't he EVER inform his 'helpers' (lower beings than him, but higher than us) that all this will happen, unless they prevent it? Why almost go out his way (milky way? Heh.) to ENSURE this would all happen exactly like it did?

I do have questions about Karma, regarding causal-postulate as well,.. but I might not be able to include that thought fully here. But the point about Karma is that how did it begin?

(Almost ALL the beginnings are shrouded in mystery, it seems, like the chicken/egg-thing - my opinion is that of course they had to develop a fully functional chicken that can reproduce, before they could have those reproduced eggs)

I mean, for simplicity's and thought's sake, let's assume there are only two, purely good humans in existence.

Neither have done anything bad, ever.

One of them starts becoming a little evil though, and decides to punch the other. Let's say Hugo punches Kei. *punch* *ouch!*

Now, the law of Karma tells us that Hugo will experience a punch, or a punch-like, painful experience. Then all is balanced and good (running out of chars btw).

BUT! WHY did Kei get punched? He never did anything bad, and yet he got a punch! That's not fair, that's not right, and that's not consistent with 'balance' or 'fairness'! However, Karma HAD to begin SOMEHOW.

Kei had no bad Karma. Unless Karma works beyond causal-postulate - Kei got punched, because he punched Hugo in the FUTURE. Maybe this is how eye-for-an-eye began..?

Karma seems to require reverse causal-postulate - but can a cup suddenly become shards, and THEN break? How?

God created the world and all of us so that God might behold God. That's the generalized answer from mystery schools since time immemorial. The full expression of this thought and everything else that goes with it is quite the rabbit hole.

That was my first thought while getting started reading your OP. I'll probably post again after I finish reading it all.

You are the creator of the universe as am I. We are doing this because a relative, individualized perspective gives us much more to see. It is the best and most efficient way to explore ourself. I am not this body that is typing this. This body is just a relative perceiving window that I look through. I am the creator. I see all.

The solution to your problem is that things are neither good nor evil. Yeah, god created everything as it is on purpose. Nothing is bad. Nothing is good. These are subjective terms. What's bad to you might not be bad to the black widow spider and what's cold to you isn't going to be cold for fish that live in Alaska. You see?

God sees things as they really are. Not how we have subjectively interpreted them to be. Things just are. Is an ant small?

Easy answer: He wanted to experience all emotions, not just the good ones.

I was thinking.. I read some post about other universes, maybe they were created by other deity's? Maybe they can't communicate with eachother, maybe they don't want to. Maybe they are all the same and maybe there is no other "universe."

reply to post by smithjustinb


There are things that are bad for all sentient life as we know it. Like breaking physical form.

OP, you put a lot of thought into that didnt you. I must admit, i often ask the same questions, but never seem to come up with any answers. I can go with the God experiencing God thing, but why the evil.
il be back later. got mum things to do first.

Originally posted by JackyMenace
reply to post by smithjustinb

 

There are things that are bad for all sentient life as we know it. Like breaking physical form.

Death?

Originally posted by Shoujikina
This thought has been worrying me from time to time, but lately more than usually.

As an incomplete and mistaking, limited human being - that is like a grain of sand in a galaxy - I can never hope to understand or comprehend the Universe or The Creator of it fully.

But I have been pondering about why and how was everything created. Did the Omnipotent Being become bored? Couldn't He cure his boredom with his omnipotence (which would make him non-omnipotent)?

He created a rock that He couldn't move and has spent most of His time since
distracted and focused on possible ways to shift the fecking thing from on front of the fireplace.
He constantly kicks himself (especially on cold winter nights) for putting it there.

Everything we see around us is a manifestation of said frustration.

reply to post by smithjustinb


No, like breaking a limb. Spiders and humans both agree, breaking limbs = bad.

Originally posted by JackyMenace
reply to post by smithjustinb

 

No, like breaking a limb. Spiders and humans both agree, breaking limbs = bad.

What do lizards think?

reply to post by smithjustinb


They don't like it either. I can regrow my hair but I don't like it being pulled out.

We're getting off topic. Sorry bout dat dere misteak


I do not believe I am wrong. I without a doubt do not believe it is "orgasmic." I could say the same about you not wanting to admit you are wrong. I believe there are some universal "bad things." I don't know why you are getting so into this anyway. Go gives a #?


Actually, I'm wrong. I looked it up and they apparently DO orgasm when their limbs are removed. Especially it's legs which it cannot grow back. /sarcasm

Mostly a reply to the guy below. Don't want to add more off topic posts about lizards who get off on their legs being broken.

Originally posted by JackyMenace
reply to post by smithjustinb

 

They don't like it either. I can regrow my hair but I don't like it being pulled out.

We're getting off topic. Sorry bout dat dere misteak

edit on 18-12-2012 by JackyMenace because: (no reason given)

For all you know, it could be orgasmic to them. You can't claim to know. We're not getting off topic, you just don't want to admit you are wrong.

reply to post by Shoujikina


You are assigning human logic to a god. Have you ever noticed a fly caught in a spider web?

Did you help to release it? I doubt it.

Is it right or wrong for flies to get caught in spider webs? Neither, because it is what it is.

When is the last time you had a deep, rewarding conversation with a chimpanzee?

Now imagine a god moving spirit-like through the universe, and with a knowledge so far beyond us that it makes us utterly insignificant, like the fly, and so ignorant as to be mindless compared to this god, like chimps to us. This type of logic compels us to accept that we are not the reason for the building of the universe - we aren't even on the stage.

reply to post by smithjustinb


If this is true, then there cannot be an agreed upon truth, not even acceptance or freedom because how would we know that they don't enjoy slavery or intolerance to life (and therefore struggling) if we can not know for sure anything?

Originally posted by Shoujikina
I can never hope to understand or comprehend the Universe or The Creator of it fully.

But I have been pondering about why and how was everything created.

There is only ONE way you will ever hope to find the answers to all your questions.

Go to the SOURCE...

Nothing wrong with ATS, it's an awesome source of knowledge.

But the questions you ask are best directed towards the one with ALL the answers.

You can only achieve what you were called to do when you connect with God.

God made each one of us for a specific REASON.

CONNECTING with God and our purpose in life should be every ones goal in life.

The biggest loss for humans is to die without finding out who they really were and WHY they were really born.

I believe that the key is to focus your entire life around connecting with your PURPOSE

Francis Chan talks about one of your questions in this video @18 mins.:



Also these links relate to this as well for those seriously looking for answers:
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by arpgme
reply to post by smithjustinb

 

If this is true, then there cannot be an agreed upon truth, not even acceptance or freedom because how would we know that they don't enjoy slavery or intolerance to life (and therefore struggling) if we can not know for sure anything?

The truth about everything is that it is. Our truth is that we are. If there is slavery, it is neither good or bad. It just is. Soo since that is the way things actually are, how should you be? Judgement free, in my opinion, is the way to be, and it is the way to be closest to the truth. If you are judgement free, you are also free.

reply to post by smithjustinb


You are ridiculous. Do you not do anything because everything is what it is? There is no better or worse? You're full of it, bra. I'm going to bed.

p.s. Everything you say has no credibility because you think lizards orgasm by breaking limbs.

reply to post by Murgatroid

God made each one of us for a specific REASON.

How very human of you to think that way.
Seven billion humans and the universe trembles each time one of us dies - oh wait, no it doesn't.

It seems that all of your thoughts and questions hinge on a central issue, and that is why isn't this 'heaven' on Earth'- E.g. why do we have to experience the results of evil here on this physical plane? You seem to keep coming back to this question. Our Creator did leave you words - inequity was found in His Creation, and it is this inequity within man which separates man from Him. 

Jesus summed it up succinctly:

“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.” John 3:16-21

Man loves darkness more than the light because of the love of evil - staying in the darkness let's man continue to do what man wants to do - basically being his own god defining his own good and evil. God IS good, and has sent His Only Begotten Son INTO this world to save those who WILL step into that light and who are WILLING to be transformed from the inside out by being born again. It is dying to sin and evil as defined by Him, not myself. HIS sovereignty, not my own. HIS will, not my own. HIS laws, not my own. He is GOD and CREATOR, not ME. The entire scriptures are about this; man rejecting HIM, the very one who created us.

Go back to Eden. What did the serpent say that was attractive to Adam and Eve?

"For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” Genesis 3:5

Israel rejecting His rule and sovereignty:

But when they said, “Give us a king to lead us,” this displeased Samuel; so he prayed to the Lord. And the Lord told him: “Listen to all that the people are saying to you; it is not you they have rejected, but they have rejected me as their king. As they have done from the day I brought them up out of Egypt until this day, forsaking me and serving other gods, so they are doing to you. Now listen to them; but warn them solemnly and let them know what the king who will reign over them will do.” 1 Samuel 8:6-9

Jesus came into this world and was rejected. The One offering peace and reconciliation was beaten, scourged and nailed to a tree by men. He told them truth, that men's hearts were wicked and evil, and that they'd all die if they refused to believe. Man does NOT want to hear that what man defines as good is truly evil in his Creator's eyes because he enjoys doing them. From start to finish, God has been honest and truthful with humanity - that inequity is within us and that it must be dealt with by dying to it. 

You mention karma and omnipresence, and these are terms used by all the serpent religions, all of which use the same serpent's tactics in Genesis; make man doubt in the truthfulness of God's words, promise a form of 'godhood' through 'hidden knowledge' and redefine good and evil. What these serpent religions do is tell you that you are a "god" and that good and evil are merely subjective. And man LIKES to hear that message - he can define his OWN good and evil - because as Jesus said "men loved darkness".

Jesus said that the world must learn that He obeyed all that the Father commanded. This is a bitter pill to swallow for mankind who largely prefer their own 'godhood'. The world doesn't want the peace that He left us with, but instead they want the darkness which tells them that good and evil is subjective and that as "gods" themselves, God's evil can be redefined as "good" with none of the consequences that "God's defined evil" brings. The 4,000 babies butchered in the womb today are no longer defined as murder by a society revelling in sexual appetites, but rather a "right". Using the same human logic, this world will end up attempting to redefine everything as "good" that God considers evil. Yet, no matter if we call it good, it will bring the results of choosing evil - misery and death. The death and misery in the world is due to sin - the transgressions of His law. And tragically, man is set on a course of rebellion of his own making -

man v. God
creation v. The Creator.

It is no contest. The End is known from the Beginning. Repent or not. Obedience to Satan or the Creator. The Kingdom of God is a theocracy, accept it or reject it.