St Loius Police Chief says time to end "gun free" lunacy

reply to post by cripmeister


Here is some logic for you. 80% of the shots fired in this country were for self and home defense.

Originally posted by alldaylong
The people who carry out these crimes are mentally ill. They nearly always end up killing themselves. They won't be afraid if teachers have guns, because they want to die anyway.
You are all missing the blindingly obvious.

Yes they off themselves or have a gun battle with the police. They have made up their minds. Everyone wants to treat violence with violence. We need to find the real problem. These are people whom have in their eye's feel they have been crapped on all their life. Depression is nothing to mess around with. With a failing economy people are depressed out of work no money = no way to get help. Without a income getting help is virtually non-existent. When something like this happens everyone is in shock that it happen. You really want to know the root of the problem go look in the mirror. In the old days you had loving caring neighbors, community fairs, church meetings. Now it's every man for himself stuff like this never happened. Now we live in a dog eat dog world. Love really is the answer without it life has no meaning.

reply to post by alldaylong


So, then an armed teacher can give them what they want, before they harm any kids.

reply to post by Advantage


We don't have metal detectors and armed guards at our schools in Alaska, at least not to my knowledge.

I do know that they usually had a police officer in a squad car at my Highschool before/after and at lunch times. Teens were easy pickings for traffic violations.

reply to post by benrl

I wonder which school is more likely to be targeted, the "We Hate Guns Middle School" or the Valley Forge Military Academy.

When I was a kid, I found most of my teachers were barely competent enough to operate the pencil sharpener. This isn't a gun control issue, it's a mental health issue.

Canada had a spree of shooting when they opened up the gates for Jamaican and Somalian refugees a few years ago. It's just a simple fact. They came in, they got themselves into public shootings. Deemed "the year of the gun".

A number of them were criminals or had a pretty shifty upbringing. They didn't acclimate. Putting guns in the hands of everyone around them probably would have caused more innocent people to be shot. Gun control was in effect and had no affect.

Mental health problem, plain and simple.

Surely its better to not have nut jobs with guns running around in the first place? but the problem is that these young guys generally need help before they have reach the point of grabbing half a hundred weight of guns and ammo and deciding to make everyone into swiss cheese so if they're getting medication from the doc wheres the second line of shrinks to ensure they are looked after and if they're a potential danger to themselves and/or others get proper treatment as being doped up on lord knows what and sitting in moms basement playing COD isn't really going to be the best solution

But better physical protection so that its harder for a nutter to enter schools would also help as if theres only 1 entrance and its got x-ray and 2-3 armed guards along with a few more wandering at random around the school and the ability to lock the bullet proof doors/windows shut at a moments notice then it'll remove the temptation perhaps as it won't be worth it to get put down at the school entrance compared to being a 'hero'

reply to post by kozmo

The decline of morals and the loss of personal responsibility is to blame. That is an entirely different thread. We can debate prohibition on inanimate objects until we're all blue in the face, and bad people will still find ways to do bad things - despite any indignation.

How do you see there was a "decline of morals"... I'm a little confused about this one. Murder rates have dropped drastically in the past couple hundred years. The only thing that has really changed is marriage/divorce rate.

Oddly enough, the exact number of divorces now coincides with the number of murders 200 years ago. I guess when you don't believe in divorce..... "Death do us part" and all that...



Okay, okay, I made the last part up.

Sounds like a fantastic idea! Now when a teacher has a bad day and snaps, it'll be so much easier to wipe out a classroom of kids if he doesn't have to duck down to the car first. Yay! Guns for everyone!

Americans are free to own 50 gazillion guns each as long as the "trend" doesn't infect other countries. With so many guns around it guarantees international news time will a different riveting life of death story every day. Enough to keep me entertained for years to come!

Maybe the schools should learn to lock their doors and get a better security system.

Originally posted by homeslice
So the guns the murder got was from his mother - a teacher at the school. So now you want all the rest of the teachers in america to have guns?

According to the school staff including the principal no one there knew or has known her.

Originally posted by Merlin Lawndart
I am amazed at some of the responses here and around the web. Are people really being serious by saying if we arm the teachers, the teachers will one day go crazy and kill all of their students? What kind of teachers do your kids have? What kind of crazy school would employ such lunatics? Quit being such drama queens. One day you're buying a gun, the next day you're going crazy and you're shooting up a school. Give me a break. There are what, 200,000,000, 300,000,000 legal firearms in the country? These anti gun types are really disconnected and delusional. It's like saying everyone is going to start doing heroin and become a heroin addict if we legalized heroin.

To be fair though, among the award winning teachers in my high school, we had a paedophile, a pothead, an alcoholic, and a couple with serious anger issues.

Wouldn't trust them with sharpened pencils, let alone guns...



I look back now wondering how the hell these guys got hired in the first place.

Originally posted by studio500
Yeah until one Teacher gets pushed over the edge of life and decides to take out an entire classroom full of 4 year olds!

Then everyone will say Duh....How could we have let this happen......

edit on 17-12-2012 by studio500 because: (no reason given)

If that is what a teacher wants to do then all he or she has to do today is bring their own weapon.

Originally posted by alldaylong

Originally posted by thisguyrighthere

Originally posted by alldaylong
The people who carry out these crimes are mentally ill. They nearly always end up killing themselves. They won't be afraid if teachers have guns, because they want to die anyway.
You are all missing the blindingly obvious.

As are you. The sooner the attacker dies the better. A lot of damage is done while victims wait for cops to arrive.

So you are saying school teachers should have a gun ready on top of their desk in case an intruder walks in and starts shooting. That is never going to happen. He takes the teacher out first before she has time to get his or her gun out.

You are creating situations in your imagination right now,hollywood style.

Following that reasoning that you are giving so absolutely would require that school to consist of 1 classroom,1 teacher.

For instance, Is a shooter that enters a school and that starts shooting already in a classroom by definition ?
The answer clearly is : no

But lets assume that he is. If another teacher or most or all other teachers in the school in other classrooms hear the gunfire and have access to a gun somehow ,how does that example that you so definitely gave play out for the purp then?

I really cannot believe you think that the solution is to arm teachers. What happens if a child gets the gun out of the desk and starts firing it. Or do you suggest the teachers walk around with a holster.

If schools were to be outfitted with guns, lets say 1 gun in every classroom. Then do you think they would just say "okay lets dump a gun in every teachers drawer and be done with it" ....or.... they would install a metal gun box with a lock in each of those classes and have responsible training programs setup to support it.

Which method is more likely to happen after a lot of debate before a idea like this is ever to be purposed and used ,your own dreamed up unorganised solution or the one i just sketched ?

If this wasn't so ridiculous it would be laughable. So your answer to stop mental people using guns is to give more people guns.

The solution is to treat the disease.

I am sorry but the only ridiculous and laughable thing i see i responses like yours.

So lets assume guns are banned, illegal. Do criminals like murderers and such all of a sudden stop bearing guns? Killing someone is also illegal , do you suppose that someone that intends to kill people will care much about carrying guns illegally ?

reply to post by cripmeister

My argument is this: more guns = more gun violence. If you can't grasp this simple logic I am sorry.

If this argument were true, Switzerland would be in a state of Civil war. See here why
Yet this is clearly not the case, despite the very ready availability of military, fully automatic service rifles in Swiss households.
Also, the US State of Vermont seems to have very lax gun laws according to the Brady Campaign Homepage, yet I haven't heard of any mass shootings there. See here for yourself.

I think this is a multi facetted issue. It encompasses the following:
Primary aspects:
- Regional Culture (in the broader sense)
- Regional Mentality (Not mental health)
- Communal world view and way of thinking / handling issues(or perspective)

Secondary Aspects:
- Regional Law
- Regional "Gun" Culture (in the more specific sense)

Tertiary aspects:
- Familiary world view and way of thinking / handling issues(or perspective)
- Personal mental health
- Personal upbringing
- Personal education (in general and in the "Gun" specific)

And finally:
- possible medications/drugs
- The trigger that made the young man snap

In order to address and hopefully avoid such mass shootings, all of the above aspects have to be taken into account.

The idea that the culprit just one day awoke and said " Screw it, my life is crap, I wanna die and take some innocent kids with me" is reaching too short.

Also, the Idea that the tragedy could have avoided by simply denying him access to guns is, imho, whishful thinking at its worst. Yes, the amount of casualties might have differed with alternate means of wreaking havoc, but but the goal should be to avoid such tragedies, not to "manage" them or to lower the amount of casualties to "acceptable levels".

People, or perhaps the US society as a whole, should investigate why there can be circumstances, that lead a human being to disconnect from live in such a way. And this investigations should primarily encompass the "heart" Aspect. The emotions, the feelings of everybody.

Without such measures, all cries for gun bans or other kneejerk-reactions will use up time and resources (and risk political backlash), but the underlying issues are not adressed.

Drop a few hundred neutron bombs on the U.S, and re-populate it with sane people.

You guys and your gun lunacy have gone too far already.


Begin flaming now.

reply to post by thisguyrighthere


Its about time we had a real 'common sense' solution. If the schools aren't going to allow the teachers and administrators to carry, then they should be required to provide armed security.

And its good to see that more and more people with some political influence are starting to push for this over the last few days. We need some realistic solutions that will actually help prevent and minimize these types of incidents, instead of feel-good legislation that just hurts people who aren't guilty of anything.

Laws are like locks they only stop the honest.

Originally posted by Rubic0n

Originally posted by alldaylong

Originally posted by thisguyrighthere

Originally posted by alldaylong
The people who carry out these crimes are mentally ill. They nearly always end up killing themselves. They won't be afraid if teachers have guns, because they want to die anyway.
You are all missing the blindingly obvious.

As are you. The sooner the attacker dies the better. A lot of damage is done while victims wait for cops to arrive.

So you are saying school teachers should have a gun ready on top of their desk in case an intruder walks in and starts shooting. That is never going to happen. He takes the teacher out first before she has time to get his or her gun out.

You are creating situations in your imagination right now,hollywood style.

Following that reasoning that you are giving so absolutely would require that school to consist of 1 classroom,1 teacher.

For instance, Is a shooter that enters a school and that starts shooting already in a classroom by definition ?
The answer clearly is : no

But lets assume that he is. If another teacher or most or all other teachers in the school in other classrooms hear the gunfire and have access to a gun somehow ,how does that example that you so definitely gave play out for the purp then?

I really cannot believe you think that the solution is to arm teachers. What happens if a child gets the gun out of the desk and starts firing it. Or do you suggest the teachers walk around with a holster.

If schools were to be outfitted with guns, lets say 1 gun in every classroom. Then do you think they would just say "okay lets dump a gun in every teachers drawer and be done with it" ....or.... they would install a metal gun box with a lock in each of those classes and have responsible training programs setup to support it.

Which method is more likely to happen after a lot of debate before a idea like this is ever to be purposed and used ,your own dreamed up unorganised solution or the one i just sketched ?

If this wasn't so ridiculous it would be laughable. So your answer to stop mental people using guns is to give more people guns.

The solution is to treat the disease.

I am sorry but the only ridiculous and laughable thing i see i responses like yours.

So lets assume guns are banned, illegal. Do criminals like murderers and such all of a sudden stop bearing guns? Killing someone is also illegal , do you suppose that someone that intends to kill people will care much about carrying guns illegally ?

Let us look at some of your ridiculous replies.

Teachers hear gun fire coming from a class room and run to help. How many children have been shot in the meantime? What happens if the shooter barricades the door to stop entry by anyone else?

The gun is locked in a steel box within the classroom.. Does the teacher say "Hang on Mr Gunman you can't start shooting untill i have unlocked this box and got my gun out?

What happens if the gunman is a parent of one of the children at the school who has a legitimate reason for being in the school? Do you bar all parents from attending schools?


You my friend live in a fantasy world. The fruitcakes who carry out these horrendous acts do not think like sane people. As i said, you treat the disease. Anyone in the US who applies for a gun license needs to have a written testimony from their Doctor to say they are of sound mind, and that should be updated every few years.

As a final question, would you want your child to be in a school classroom where a loaded gun is kept? Putting yet more guns into the system is never going to be the solution.

Originally posted by alldaylong

As a final question, would you want your child to be in a school classroom where a loaded gun is kept? Putting yet more guns into the system is never going to be the solution.

Yes. The child already lives at home with carrying parents. The child already shoots with the local clubs rifle and pistol teams.

The only place the child isnt around guns in at school where kids are herded into little rooms left to cower in closets and wait for the people with guns to arrive.

How the hell is it that gun grabbers dont trust anyone to have guns yet are totally willing to sit and die while they wait for the guys with guns to come save them?