Every possible reason for gun ownership addressed and countered

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posted on Dec, 17 2012 @ 04:04 PM
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#9 Guns aren't the issue, we need to help mental people

Well, agreed here and on both counts. They aren't and we do. If we care to see where Mental Health in this nation failed and where to look for a place to work back to, it would be 1981/82. One of Reagan's opening moves as President was the dismantling of one of the better Mental Health systems in the world. As much as I love Reagan as a President? What he did wrong he did VERY VERY wrong. He was a man with little for half way...including good and bad action.

#10 But look what happened in the UK after guns were taken away

As noted above, the Knives are now the weapon of choice and a very busy one they've become. Criminal mindset wouldn't seem to change around the world, just the weapon being used.

In this case though, as you would agree I'm sure, we aren't the UK. What happened in the UK is no more relevant to argue for or against our gun laws than a reverse argument would be for opening gun laws in England. We have no business there..and they have no business here ...beyond personal opinions to toss into the mix, of course.


#11 Look at how little crime there is in Kennesaw where guns are Mandatory

Hmmm... I've never used this as an example and never plan to. One location went a little bonkers and got a little stupid about writing new regulations for their town. The fact it worked out for them is nice....but I still wouldn't want to live there. There are gun owners and then there are gun obsessed owners. Woe be the person who doesn't recognize the difference soon enough, IMO.

#12 I use it for hunting

I do...and Deer hunting here is nearly a state Holiday. I've also used an AR-15 with 30 round magazines for Hog Hunting, Ground Hog hunting and Coyote Hunting. All of these are extremely damaging little buggers that do massive damage to homes, outbuildings and private property. So food isn't all it's for and what the weapons are used for in this sense is simply not possible in other ways and with the same effect.

By the way, for perspective, in Missouri there were 590,499 permits issued for firearm hunting season on Deer. In the 2012 hunting season, over 59,000 deer were taken during the hunt.

# of Permits issued

Number of Deer Taken

Thats just Missouri of course... I understand Wisconsin had another 600,000 permits issued this season for their Deer hunt. That would be 1.2 million....roughly...between just 2 states. Hunting is a MAJOR MAJOR thing here. The revenue generated by those permits also funds the majority of state conservation programs and wildlife care efforts.

#14 America isn't the worst by far when it comes to gun deaths

This is a weak argument and I agree with you here. We aren't the highest but we ARE the highest in the Western World and outside of South Africa, the developed world as a whole. THAT has to change...although banning guns isn't the answer ...as the crime won't stop. It'll shift weapons perhaps...it'll change nature...but it won't stop by banning the first weapon of choice to criminals.

#15 I don't care I'm keeping my guns

LOL.... Okay, I figure you probably got a little chuckle out of this and I sure did. As an argument? I think of my Son when he was 3, stomping up and down over keeping a toy.
It may be a statement of fact, but goes without saying IMO. So voice this argument in a debate....would tell me, the person has lost the debate and they know it. They're out of good points..and can't even come up with bad ones anymore. This would be the last argument of the defeated in a SERIOUS debate.



(Sorry about time on this... Today's my B-Day and a lot going on here)
edit on 17-12-2012 by Wrabbit2000 because: minor corrections on first point in post




posted on Dec, 17 2012 @ 04:04 PM
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reply to post by IkNOwSTuff
 


I see that since I have thoroughly debunked the premise of your OP and have, in fact, schooled you that you have elected to ignore me and my responses. Very well. I will graciously accept that as a sign of your surrender and admission that the entire premise of this thread is thoroughly DEBUNKED.

I believe it would be appropriate to place this in the "DEBUNKED" forum... or, at the very least the "SCHOOLED" forum. Sadly we don't have those.




posted on Dec, 17 2012 @ 04:04 PM
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reply to post by IkNOwSTuff
 





8) I need it to keep my family safe

Everyone the world over worries about their families safety and security but most of us do just fine without a gun. The reason most of you have put forward is that criminals have guns so you need them. As addressed above the more guns in circulation the easier it is for the bad people to get them, it is a self defeating argument.


Armed criminals are not the only reason, a criminal armed with a knife or just hands is also dangerous. I wouldnt be surprised if an armed family in high gun abundance society is relatively safer than an unarmed family in low gun abundance one. After all, as you pointed out, most of gun victims are criminals, not innocent family members, so mere gun deaths can be biased.


Anyway, I would agree with a tighter gun regulation, but not too restrictive. Because in the end, you are restricting the rights of a 300+ million innocent people to potentialy save a miniscule fraction of this number. So the equation is heavily biased towards freedom as a default option.



posted on Dec, 17 2012 @ 04:09 PM
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i still haven't had my post addressed.

www.abovetopsecret.com...



posted on Dec, 17 2012 @ 04:11 PM
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reply to post by shaneslaughta
 


in that situation, we better have some ready state militias to take over when law enforcement goes home to their families....and some self protected people to fend for themselves in a SHTF scenario.
edit on 17-12-2012 by zedVSzardoz because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 17 2012 @ 04:13 PM
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in that situation, we better have some ready state militias to take over when law enforcement goes home to their families....and some self protected people to fend for themselves in a SHTF scenario.
edit on 17-12-2012 by zedVSzardoz because: (no reason given)



but most states have outlawed militias.



posted on Dec, 17 2012 @ 04:18 PM
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reply to post by shaneslaughta
 


Militias are us. Organizing us wont take much. If it has to just establish order the people will form one naturally. The state government would be the first order established. The federal government is screwed.



posted on Dec, 17 2012 @ 04:19 PM
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Originally posted by shaneslaughta


in that situation, we better have some ready state militias to take over when law enforcement goes home to their families....and some self protected people to fend for themselves in a SHTF scenario.
edit on 17-12-2012 by zedVSzardoz because: (no reason given)



but most states have outlawed militias.


That's not accurate. Most states no longer organize their OWN militias. But labeling a group of citizens as a militia will not bar them from organizing legally. in MOST states anyway, the grassroots Militia is in fact, protected.



posted on Dec, 17 2012 @ 04:24 PM
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Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff
reply to post by AlaskanDad
 


As stated in the OP hunting is an exception to the rule for me.

Legalities and constitutions aside how do you feel about non hunting Americans having semi automatic weapons?

For me this isnt a kneejerk reaction, Ive always been against guns but whats been happening has just brought it to the fore
edit on 17/12/2012 by IkNOwSTuff because: (no reason given)


To tell you the truth being an old country boy who has never carried a firearm out of fear of other people, nor have I lived in a big city, I am not sure if I am qualified to answer your question.

I will add that gun bans are like any other form of prohibition, guns will still be sold everyday and there will be none registered nor will there be any waiting period from black-market arms dealers.

How do you feel about diesel fuel and fertilizers, Timothy McVay murdered mass people in Oklahoma city by combining these two easily purchased items.





edit on 17-12-2012 by AlaskanDad because: spelling and typos



posted on Dec, 17 2012 @ 04:26 PM
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reply to post by IkNOwSTuff
 


Well this threads done. People around the world think guns are taboo? They donnt want them? Are you that naive? Do you know nothing about arms trade? You seriously think when 3d printers are standard people won't make them.

Then with the constitution your argument is even weaker " its not a full stop its a comma, this TO ME IMPlIES blah blah blah" more blathering, no point.

Apparently you haven't kept tabs on afghanistan. We didn't take out their govt,the have small tribal govts, and we are losing there. Before we went there Russia lost to them and their small arms.

As for the military here not firing on us or destroying us and our "puny" guns, it isn't black and white. You are apparently incapable of considering it realistically. Don't ever become a writer. There would be some military rebel, some defend. Police would likely take on civilians at first, and the news would painnt the rebels as terrorists. Its complicated guns would be nnecessary though.
edit on 17-12-2012 by GogoVicMorrow because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 17 2012 @ 04:27 PM
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LET'S ALL GET THIS CLEAR PEOPLE!!

When an "Anti-Gunner" tells you that there have been political change, you will find them bringing up India and Egypt as examples.

Please note that these two examples are the ONLY examples where a government change has happend non violently. By the people anyway. The governments? Well, before they were dissolved, they made sure they Massaquered and slaughtered as many peaceful unarmed citizens as possible before they reliezed all they did was empower the WHOLE nation not to accept their rule..

MANY MANY people died in both these "peaceful regime changes" and they all died violently.

Again, solidifying the FACT that an armed citizenry is necessary to the security of a free state. Need we really say more?
edit on 12/17/1212 by foodstamp because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 17 2012 @ 04:28 PM
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reply to post by GogoVicMorrow
 


Lol, Word....



posted on Dec, 17 2012 @ 04:30 PM
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reply to post by MikeNice81
 





So, I guess the guy in Arizona shot a senator because she just happened to be there? The guy that shot up an immigration office chose it because it was convenient?


The guy who shot the senator never said why he did it, if it was a political statement its kind of weird he didnt make any political statements after he did it.
Sorry but Im not familiar with the other shooting but I dont see how this helps your argument





You also forgot to include the article that helps prove it isn't just an American problem.


Ive seen that article but didnt include it because its bogus, its not total deaths or deaths per capita its total deaths per gun owner. That article is an example of using and manipulating stats to suit your agenda.
Of course in a country with 100 million gun owners your going to be low on that list.

The more appropriate figures are total deaths in which your 4th or deaths per capita in which you are 12th.
But seriously, check out the countries higher than you on those lists, being behind them is absolutely nothing to brag about.




60% of convicted felons admitted that they avoided committing crimes when they knew the victim was armed. 40% of convicted felons admitted that they avoided committing crimes when they thought the victim might be armed


First thing Ive read that is actually good for gun ownership, still doesnt take into account the fact that most of these criminals have guns because they are so easy to access.




A 1994 survey conducted by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention found that Americans use guns to frighten away intruders who are breaking into their homes about 498,000 times per year.[20] "Estimating intruder-related firearm retrievals in U.S. households, 1994." By Robin M. Ikeda and others. Violence and Victims, Winter 1997. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...
Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18]


Glad you brought this up, if you check the data from this survey its actually extrapolated from a phone survey of 2000 people.
Its been proven that people very readily lie in phone surveys so apart from these figures being basically pulled out of the air as averages if even 200 people lied in that survey the margin for error is a few hundred thousand!!!!

Not exactly compelling evidence




Every day 550 rapes, 1,100 murders, and 5,200 other violent crimes are prevented just by showing a gun. In less than 0.9% of these instances is the gun ever actually fired.


Once again these figures are taken from surveys and are not even close to being accurate, where are the police reports for all these attempted rapes and murders? They dont exist because its not even close to being a reality




However a key finding is that "the illegal market is the most likely source" for these people to obtain a gun. "In fact, more than half the arrestees say it is easy to obtain guns illegally," the report states. Responding to a question of how they obtained their most recent handgun, the arrestees answered as follows: 56% said they paid cash;


Yes but the fact is at one stage or another these guns were in the system legally, why would you import a gun when they are so easy to get in the US

Unless someone somewhere has an Illegal production line producing perfect glocks and AKs all guns in the US that are illegal were once upon a time legal. Thats a fact




According to Victimization During Household Burglary, Bureau of Justice Statistics, September 2010 over 100,000 guns are stolen in home robberies every year. Could this not be a bigger market than the 23,775 guns reported stolen or lost from FFLs in 18 years? The criminal may not have stolen it directly, but chances are the person he bought it from probably did according to Targeting Guns:


How does this support your stand that guns should be readily available to law abiding citizens



posted on Dec, 17 2012 @ 04:32 PM
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You ask for a rational debate yet you ignore my post.

Ive tried time and time again to get you to respond.

This thread is clearly to incite arguments not to have a debate.



posted on Dec, 17 2012 @ 04:33 PM
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reply to post by IkNOwSTuff
 




We need them to defend ourselves against the government


I'm pro gun control (not gun prohibition) but often they go hand to hand. I see no problem in having sane measures to give a person a gun license, we do it with cars. but I see the above point not rely countered by you and one of the major reasons I have lately changed my opinion that there should be any other reason why one should be able to own a gun.

I agree with you that in a 1 on 1 confrontation there is really no point on having guns to fight a government but as soon as you change the ratio it starts to make more sense. The Black Panther Party and other similar movements in the US showed that it works as a government motivator, violence is only the recourse of those unable to come to a compromise the threat of violence is always a powerful motivator and should not be singularly owned by the state.

Consider what would have happened on Greece, it wouldn't never had reached the present state. Imagine it on other nations and their own social problems, most of them would have had to address them sooner.



posted on Dec, 17 2012 @ 04:36 PM
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Originally posted by GogoVicMorrow
reply to post by IkNOwSTuff
 


Well this threads done. People around the world think guns are taboo? They donnt want them? Are you that naive? Do you know nothing about arms trade? You seriously think when 3d printers are standard people won't make them.

I picked up on that "People around the world think guns are taboo" statement too and had myself a giggle.

I know that someone has posted a link to this article in this thread and in the OP's original thread that they abandoned.

Gun homicides and gun ownership listed by country

Just running down the list and of some NON-USA numbers.

Average total all civilian firearms
Brazil - 14 million
China - 40 million
France - 19 million
Germany - 25 million
India - 46 million
Mexico - 15 million
Pakistan - 18 million

Yes really, really taboo...........



posted on Dec, 17 2012 @ 04:38 PM
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Originally posted by shaneslaughta
You ask for a rational debate yet you ignore my post.

Ive tried time and time again to get you to respond.

This thread is clearly to incite arguments not to have a debate.



I second this. I have made logical arguments too. Then OP quotes a single line and responds to it briefly so he never fully answers. This thread is either to troll or push an anti gun agenda. I think all that's happened here is we have seen the reasons we should have guns reinforced with logical responses.



posted on Dec, 17 2012 @ 04:38 PM
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reply to post by IkNOwSTuff
 


My biggest concern is big government. To me my gun is a way to protect myself from tyrannical government and just because the government may have a technological advantage doesn't mean I want to give up the only thing that might help me balance the odds. And you can tell me all day that taking away guns will somehow saves everyone but if you look toward your own lands the number of deaths from gun related crime hasn't changed according to you own words. Perhaps there is less gun related crimes over all, but can you actually provide supporting evidence to support what you claim as far as criminals only using guns against other criminals because I'm pretty sure non criminals get mugged all the time. Besides I believe Austailia might have started using a gun ban and I hear people from there bitch about how much worse crime has gotten since then. I could be wrong about the whole Australia thing but it certainly rings a bell. I would like to write more on this but I'm using a cellphone at work to respond presently so this will have to do.
edit on 17-12-2012 by GrimReaper86 because: (no reason given)
edit on 17-12-2012 by GrimReaper86 because: (no reason given)
edit on 17-12-2012 by GrimReaper86 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 17 2012 @ 04:51 PM
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As to your Pt #14 I think Brazil is 1st with over 35,000 which makes the US 5th instead of 4th (had to get that out of the way). Let me say that I appreciate the time and thought that went into your argument and the concern and compassion that you demonstrate for victims of violence. That being said it must be understood that America was founded as a unique experiment in government; a true democratic republic (no figure of head monarchy either). Our Founding Fathers drafted a Constitution to complement the virtues extolled in the Declaration of Independence from King George's Great Britain. The colonists were treated like second class citizens. You could not even make finished commercial goods in the colonies from the vast raw materials in America....the commodities had to be shipped to England and the finished products sent back to the colonies. Then there was the "taxation without representation" which hit a nerve. Of course, the last straw came when the red coats marched on Lexington to take the guns, powder and ball ammo from the store house. The shot heard round the world at Lexington and Concord gave impetus to the colonial rebellion which history records as The Revolutionary War. So our birth as a nation comes from resistance to increasing tyranny (many other abuses not delineated) and attempted gun confiscation. The 2nd Amendment to the Constitution (in the Bill of Rights which enumerated individual rights to the citizens was short and to the point; the main point being that the "right to keep and bear arms (an inalienable right by divine authority) shall not be infringed (by government)" and the modifying point being that "a well regulated (as in timing or trained and dependable) militia (people's defense vs a standing army) being necessary to the security of a free state". This modifying phrase implies a collective meaning to an individual right. That means if the security of a state is at risk it is ultimately up to the people themselves to secure that liberty for themselves individually and collectively as a free state. The means to that end lies in the access to (fire)arms. Individually a person or even a remote compound (ie Waco) can not stand up to a concentrated force of law enforcement or especially military power. But it is the right of free people to resist tyranny (see the Virginia state flag and motto: "Thus unto Tyrants"). Look what has has happened in the mid east (ie Egypt) without citizen's use of guns.

Guns can be a great equalizer. WWI was started with an assassination by a lone gunman. Our President Kennedy was killed (albeit multiple shooters) with a gun. The turning point of the Revolutionary War itself was the Battle of Saratoga and the turning point of the battle was when a patriot marksman shot the red coat general with his rifled barrel musket and the leaderless Brits floundered with the broken down command structure. I am not advocating gun violence on anyone just merely stating the history of the gun and the citizen's right to use it to defend freedom. Thomas Jefferson once said that our greatest risk as a country came not from outside our shores but from within (this was before the rise of communism obviously)....he also said that "resistance to tyranny is obedience to God" and he was right on both counts.



posted on Dec, 17 2012 @ 04:51 PM
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reply to post by Wrabbit2000
 


Oh.. man I have to say something to you. Ok last month I was driving down to georgia around the 5 points area to meet my girlfriend who was driving home from Fla. Anyway I wanted to choose somwhere safe to stay, but didn't know where (I had protection, but still this is atlant georgia we are talking about and I was worrieed about her). So I was googling small towns outside atlanta and she said what about Kennesaw? I googled it and i saw "every household has a gun by law, also one of the safest towns in the country" so that's where we stayed and it was a super nice town, we walked safely to a pizzaplace/bar and saw teens hangingoutside and talking. All was fine,all was safe.

So if you are traveling through Goergia, or staying near Atlanta, stay in Kennesaw. Lots of good food, and plenty of hotels.
edit on 17-12-2012 by GogoVicMorrow because: (no reason given)





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