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Every possible reason for gun ownership addressed and countered

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posted on Dec, 17 2012 @ 03:43 PM
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Originally posted by kozmo

Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff

10) But look at what happened in the UK after guns were taken away



Despite figures saying gun crime was up, death by guns remained largely static and within acceptable statistical variation.



Sooooooooo, you're saying your own gun ban doesn't even work. WTF are you going on about??? And then you go on to state that the gun deaths you do experience are "acceptable"???

I'm done with this ridiculous presentation! The OP can't even organize their thoughts in a rational and cogent way. Sorry OP, you cannot be taken seriously - not even remotely!


There was no significant increase in gun deaths after the ban came into play and I said ACCEPTABLE STATISTICAL VARIATION, that is not the same as acceptable. It simply means no significant increase.

And Im Australian not English




posted on Dec, 17 2012 @ 03:44 PM
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reply to post by muse7
 


kind of like arguing with people who still fight austerity measures even though their economies will tank if not followed and cause massive social upheaval....to millions of kids too....



edit on 17-12-2012 by zedVSzardoz because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 17 2012 @ 03:44 PM
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reply to post by IkNOwSTuff
 


You're a student incapable of in depth thought.. typical. Change majors, quick.

A history majory that can't understand how an armed populace could bring down a military? Why go to school if you can't pay attention.

A history major that doesn't know that every dictator disarms his population first.

And let me tell you this "history major (lol)" hating guns is ignorant, as you have no reason. What you mean is you are afraid of guns.
edit on 17-12-2012 by GogoVicMorrow because: (no reason given)
edit on 17-12-2012 by GogoVicMorrow because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 17 2012 @ 03:45 PM
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I read your OP and there is one thing that is nagging me about it.


Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff
Let me start by saying yes I hate guns


Every time I read one of your points, that very first point you made rang out in my head. It just made all the reasoning behind your points hollow, making it feel like they were just being bent to serve the purpose of that opening line.

I'm not going to dig on you for not being American. No snide remarks. But, you need to understand your culture and our culture are two different things.

I will post this from the conclusion of a study on guns and violence:

Gun control is a very minor, though not entirely irrelevant, part of the solution to the violence problem, just as guns are of only very minor significance as a cause of the problem. The U.S. has more violence than other nations for reasons unrelated to its extraordinarily high gun ownership. Fixating on guns seems to be, for many people, a fetish which allows them to ignore the more intransigent causes of American violence, including its dying cities, inequality, deteriorating family structure, and the all- pervasive economic and social consequences of a history of slavery and racism.
Credit: Gary Kleck
Guns and Violence: A Summary of the Field



posted on Dec, 17 2012 @ 03:46 PM
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Threads speed is picking up.

Please address this post of mine
www.abovetopsecret.com...



posted on Dec, 17 2012 @ 03:47 PM
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You should know anytime anyone breathes that 'they' want to take
our guns away...tempers will flare,our voices will scream: never,out
of our cold,dead hands!
It is an american thing and I am a proud gun owner and an american.



posted on Dec, 17 2012 @ 03:48 PM
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You hate guns...you feel you have wisdom to rain down on us ignorant Americans...well gee...thanks. I am sure I could find something similar to that opinion on the bottom of my shoe....I guess it depends on where I carelessly step.

We do not need your help...we do not need your opinions. I can pretend we appreicate your opinions but we don't. We were there to bail almost every other country out at some point or another and the best way they can express true gratitude is to mind their own business. If your country has never reeived a dollar in foreign aid...then feel free to add your opinion...if it has...then you need to shut up...you have no voice here.

to make a long story short ...oh sheep of the big softie world...





...we do not need or want your help.
edit on 12/17/2012 by Jeremiah65 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 17 2012 @ 03:49 PM
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Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff

Originally posted by kozmo
Simply reply: BULLOCKS!

The right to bear arms is protection from tyrannical government. In your OP, you found the notion of tyrannical government laughable. Ends the debate right there - you DON'T KNOW HISTORY or you selectively choose to ignore it in support of your ideals.

Either way, history has demonstrated repeatedly that an unarmed population is one that is forced to succumb to the will of the government - who, ironically, IS armed.

You can pull all of the mental and verbal gymnastics that you like. But any premise contrary to the facts outlined in history is both disingenuous and illogical.
Actually Im a history major

I dont find the notion of a tyrannical gov laughable, I find the notion of fighting tanks helicopters and drones with handguns laughable.

A peaceful revolution is the only revolution worth having, if it gets to a stage where its you guys with your hand guns and semi autos VS the military industrial complex your screwed.

Dont let it get that far and you wont need guns.
It seems you all dont mind other liberties being stripped away as long as its not your guns, I just dont get it


If you are a history major, you have a very limited view of history - or perhaps received for poor marks for your studies. Who defeated the British in the Colonies, an organized army or a rag-tag bunch of farmers? Who defeated the Russians in Afghanistan? An organized army consisting of helicopters and tanks or rag-tag army or farmers? Who defeated the Bolsheviks in Russia? An organized army or a rag-tag bunch of farmers? Who defeated Catherine the Great? An organized army or a rag-tag bunch of farmers?

Look at this Extensive list of revolutions and rebellions and learn from history. Do you know what MOST of them had in common? They were a simple people raging against tyrannical rule which was supported by superior armies! PUH-leeeeeeeeeeeeez!

Again, any other representation of these FACTS are a disingenuous attempt to support an illogical and fallacious argument.



posted on Dec, 17 2012 @ 03:49 PM
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reply to post by zedVSzardoz
 


It is part of our cultural identity like the samurai sword is to Japanese culture. You just don't understand.
You don't understand what culture is...
sublime....




Not sure how to describe that....



posted on Dec, 17 2012 @ 03:50 PM
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reply to post by Atzil321
 


that is not representative of my country.

You want me to post videos of chavs next? or your red necks?


your post is representative of the ignorance surrounding Americans and our gun laws, It is also why you will never understand. Many if not all of my friends are well read, educated and damn fine human beings, and have guns. Responsible citizens and do well socially and economically.

They practice every now and again. They dont entertain themselves with their guns. Its not play time. It is something serious to them.

edit on 17-12-2012 by zedVSzardoz because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 17 2012 @ 03:52 PM
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reply to post by shaneslaughta
 


He left that out on purpose. Besides owning him on his other b.s. points (as I've done again here) I got him with that one in another thread and got nothing back but an "aw shucks" reply. He is just someone with a gun phobia that has an agenda. I've already countered every "point" he has made.



posted on Dec, 17 2012 @ 03:54 PM
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reply to post by GogoVicMorrow
 





Your trolling and intentionally ignorant on the topic, but ill reply.


Not trolling and just because Im not American doesnt mean Im ignorant on the topic, what news or insights can you get there that I miss out on here? genuinely curious




First the amendment is only ambigious if it fits your agenda. In reality the two lines are all that is necessary.


If you look carefully theres no full stop only a comma, this to me implies that a militia and armed citizens is 1 and the same not 2 separate entities.




Here again you sho a lack of actually understanding in the real world. A population could without a doubt overthrow a government such as the US.


I agree I just disagree they can do it with guns




You seem to live in a fantasy world where the US can just carpet bomb the public, sorry not a reality. In reality citizens run these miltary installatins so all bets are off.


If youd read the OP you would have seen I said the exact same thing, either the military wouldnt fire on the people or they would use all the tools at their disposal making your puny handguns redundant




If you can't beat the US with aks then explain afhanistan.


What about afghanistan

You easily removed the former regime and planted a puppet one, yes theres still fighting but only in sparsely populated mountainous regions.
I would argue its international pressure thats stopping the US from carpet bombing them, If the US attacked its own citizens I doubt it would care what the world thought




I've only responded to two of your arguments and shown your complete lack of though on the subject, shall I go on?


By all means, Id love to hear something that is actually valid and hasnt already been addressed in my OP



posted on Dec, 17 2012 @ 03:56 PM
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Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff

Originally posted by kozmo

Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff

10) But look at what happened in the UK after guns were taken away



Despite figures saying gun crime was up, death by guns remained largely static and within acceptable statistical variation.



Sooooooooo, you're saying your own gun ban doesn't even work. WTF are you going on about??? And then you go on to state that the gun deaths you do experience are "acceptable"???

I'm done with this ridiculous presentation! The OP can't even organize their thoughts in a rational and cogent way. Sorry OP, you cannot be taken seriously - not even remotely!


There was no significant increase in gun deaths after the ban came into play and I said ACCEPTABLE STATISTICAL VARIATION, that is not the same as acceptable. It simply means no significant increase.

And Im Australian not English


So again, the gun ban DID NOT WORK by your own admission. Argument over. OP claims invalidated. Notwithstanding the cultural, Constitutional and divine protection from tyranny that drive the NEED for a free people to possess the right to protect and preserve said freedom. Thanks.



posted on Dec, 17 2012 @ 03:56 PM
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Our Constitution starts with "We the people of The United States, in order to form a more perfect union...

The operative word here is "people".

It is also the operative word below:

The right of the PEOPLE to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

People. Thats us. The citizens. And further: it Shall. Not. Be. Infringed.

It's very easy to understand. The people can have arms, and bear arms. And don't infringe upon that.



posted on Dec, 17 2012 @ 03:59 PM
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reply to post by IkNOwSTuff
 


In response to your valid points I'd like to digress.

1. It's in the constitution
* I do understand your point of view that it would appear to relate to a militia specifically, however. Militia's ARE the citizenry. Therefore the citizenry must be armed. Weither or not the militia is organized by the State or the citizenry itself is irrelevant. Not too mention, the PROPER understand of this ammendment has been repeated over and over again in just about ALL our state constitutions. A topic that you do not bring up. In many of these State constitutions, you will find that the wording is even MORE straight forward so you don't "misunderstand it". And the general consensus for these various constitiutions are that the citizenry be armed WITHOUT question. So no, I disagree, the ammendment has not been misunderstood by the masses.

In fact, our state constitutions are what's saving us from gun grabbers. Because the federal government has misinterpreted the ammendment over and over again to the point of eviscerating it completely! It's the states "No frills, straightforward" wording of the right if citizens to keep and bear arms that protects from gun bans.

Your interpretation of the constitution regardless of what it is. Is invalid. The states constitution is the primary protector of each states rights.

2. Defense against the government

This comment by you is nieve at best. Many many MANY nations that have installed total gun bans have eventually lead to the stAtes turning around and using guns against it's citizenry. Usually during protest or the like. Not too mention, you will find that the countries that exist today that have total gun bans are also amongst the countries with the worst human rights violations in history.

You make it seem that because the governments gunsare bigger that somehow that makes this a valid argument. You either have not thought this out well or are ignorant to the fact that the government cannot function without it's people. So yes, an armed response by civilians is a REAL threat to the government. The world's histories of disarming the public over and over again is testament to this. Guns are necessary in order to defend a free state. It's a fact.

Imaging 250,000 armed citizens surrounding the White House and hopefully you'll get the picture.

3. US Is the where the problem lies.

Your argument here has NO bearing on the gun issue. In fact you reinforce what gun "lobbyists" have been saying for decades. There are many crazies here that do "crazy" stuff. and the citizenry must defend themselves and there communities. The guns didn't cause the problem. The crazy man did. And many of the same countries you speak also have gun laws that aren't as strict yet the prblem with mass shottings is non-existant. That should tell you something. Guns in a free society are not the issue. The people IN the society are the issue. Which is why you see tragedy's happen in the US but not in,say, Sweden for example, where every citizen is ISSUED an AK-47 by it's own government when they come of age.

4. It's our tradition

You bring up a valid point that tradition does not make something "correct" I agree. However. Guns are tradition not just because they happen to be "tradition". They are tradition because they've been around as long as we've had a constitution and before! And the framers of the constitution were correct in their views about absolute power and defense of the citizenry. That's why we have the nation we do today! You may not see guns as being "right". But judging by history and mans lust for power and money, I'd say you have your head WAY up your own butt.



posted on Dec, 17 2012 @ 04:00 PM
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reply to post by GogoVicMorrow
 





Oh I also noticed you didn't bother with the argument of protecting ourselves from others. The argument you can't even almost make.


UMMMMM..... yeah I did but I called them criminals not others.

So are you saying your scared of your fellow citizens with guns?




Or are you just gonna make 3d printers illegal so every nut with a 3d printer doesn't go on a shooting spree. Answer that!


In most other cultures guns are taboo, people dont want them and definately dont feel they need them.
As pointed out bad people if they want guns will most likely be able to find them but having them legal and readily available just makes it so much easier



posted on Dec, 17 2012 @ 04:02 PM
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reply to post by AlaskanDad
 


As stated in the OP hunting is an exception to the rule for me.

Legalities and constitutions aside how do you feel about non hunting Americans having semi automatic weapons?

For me this isnt a kneejerk reaction, Ive always been against guns but whats been happening has just brought it to the fore
edit on 17/12/2012 by IkNOwSTuff because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 17 2012 @ 04:02 PM
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Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff

Originally posted by kozmo

Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff

10) But look at what happened in the UK after guns were taken away



Despite figures saying gun crime was up, death by guns remained largely static and within acceptable statistical variation.



Sooooooooo, you're saying your own gun ban doesn't even work. WTF are you going on about??? And then you go on to state that the gun deaths you do experience are "acceptable"???

I'm done with this ridiculous presentation! The OP can't even organize their thoughts in a rational and cogent way. Sorry OP, you cannot be taken seriously - not even remotely!


There was no significant increase in gun deaths after the ban came into play and I said ACCEPTABLE STATISTICAL VARIATION, that is not the same as acceptable. It simply means no significant increase.

And Im Australian not English


His point is that nothing changed in any positive way, so it didn't work as intended.



posted on Dec, 17 2012 @ 04:03 PM
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reply to post by foodstamp
 


you´re damn skippy......
edit on 17-12-2012 by zedVSzardoz because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 17 2012 @ 04:03 PM
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reply to post by IkNOwSTuff
 


You are wrong, and you aren't thoroghly answering, don't quote bits of my text just answer me.
You don't disagree that people can overthrow a government,but you don't agree they can do it with guns? You should fail history! Others have shown you multiple real world instances of this. How dim can you be? So you think they will do it with what? Their words lol? Sorry, out of fantasy and into reality. They do it and always have down it with guns. Before guns swords, and so on.





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