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Dunblane School Massacre....ended handgun rights in UK

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posted on Dec, 17 2012 @ 08:45 AM
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Originally posted by Logarock

Originally posted by michael1983l

Originally posted by marg6043
reply to post by blupblup
 


Guess what it is an unique document that still stands in our nation and until this day not politician or congress has been able to get rid of it even if they will love too.

So the argument is obsolete, the Constitution will stand even longer than any other document ever drafter and passed has done this far.

US constiution is unique and will ever be.


I wouldn't say unique I would more say outdated.

What did Winston say...."We will fight".


You are aware that was regarding a world war and Germany trying to invade England right? Not relatable to everyday USA really.




posted on Dec, 17 2012 @ 08:45 AM
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Originally posted by Honor93
reply to post by Merriman Weir
 


So, again, why isn't the US more like Switzerland?
disproportionate gun ownership.
not enough US households are armed and the Swiss mandate EVERY household be armed.



Swiss homes have guns primarily because of the way they've substituted their military with a mandatory basic service. However, ammunition is very different. Very few of the households who have guns because of this demographic (the main demographic of gun holders) keep ammunition at home, and since 2007 only specialist police units keep ammunition for the military-issued arms.


and, as mentioned previously, the Swiss don't have gun-free zones, either.


Because their 'carry' laws are very, very different. Permits to carry are heavily restricted to certain occupations.



posted on Dec, 17 2012 @ 08:46 AM
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Originally posted by blupblup

Originally posted by marg6043
reply to post by blupblup
 


Guess what it is an unique document that still stands in our nation and until this day not politician or congress has been able to get rid of it even if they will love too.

So the argument is obsolete, the Constitution will stand even longer than any other document ever drafter and passed has done this far.

US constiution is unique and will ever be.




You guys will get there one day, you're on the right road.

We adapted, laws changed, things move on.... The Magna Carter was the Foundation the cornerstone, the starting point.... unlike you guys, we didn't cling on to it and unlike you guys, we have history and have been through, many, many changes as a nation.

When you get some years under your belt, come back and talk to the UK.



Oh yea....many changes. Yet yous were still subjugating the Welsh language into the 1960s? We stoped doing that here with the natives in the late 1800s.



posted on Dec, 17 2012 @ 08:48 AM
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reply to post by Logarock
 


We never performed Mass Genocide on the Welsh like you Americans did with the Natives. In fact you were one of the first ever nations to perfomr ethnic cleansing on the industrial scale.



posted on Dec, 17 2012 @ 08:48 AM
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Originally posted by Logarock
As a whole maybe they value life more. Or we have many more amoung us that dont.....so we stay armed.
edit on 17-12-2012 by Logarock because: n


Then, as I said, it's no point comparing the guns and the laws, you need to be looking at people and society.



posted on Dec, 17 2012 @ 08:51 AM
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Originally posted by SpearMint

Originally posted by Logarock

Originally posted by michael1983l

Originally posted by marg6043
reply to post by blupblup
 


Guess what it is an unique document that still stands in our nation and until this day not politician or congress has been able to get rid of it even if they will love too.

So the argument is obsolete, the Constitution will stand even longer than any other document ever drafter and passed has done this far.

US constiution is unique and will ever be.


I wouldn't say unique I would more say outdated.

What did Winston say...."We will fight".


You are aware that was regarding a world war and Germany trying to invade England right? Not relatable to everyday USA really.


They were fighting for their rights and way of life were they not? Thats all I am saying. Germans! England! It used to be Britian did it not? What did that famous Welsh guy say....when he first heard the english language he knew it was the end for us.



posted on Dec, 17 2012 @ 08:52 AM
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reply to post by michael1983l
 


Outdated is in the eyes of the beholder in the eyes of the believer it very much stands and still as powerful as the day it was drafted.

You can compare the Constitution with any other document but where are those documents right now? in the "annals of lost history" to the nations that once thought with their heads and minds and not with their pockets and greed.

The US constitution has served the US for 200 years and will serve the nation for another 200 or more.

The only people that the constitution of the US is hurting is terrorist, NWO greed and any other countries that can and never achieve what US have for so long regardless of been right or wrong in the eyes of the spectator, while many countries has lost their sovereignty to the greed of their leaders pursuing unification in order to gouge other countries of wealth American will never be allowed to do that with the Constitution as it stand

You can trash the America constiution any way your want like those before you and like you it will still be here long after we all are gone




posted on Dec, 17 2012 @ 08:54 AM
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Originally posted by Logarock
Oh yea....many changes. Yet yous were still subjugating the Welsh language into the 1960s? We stoped doing that here with the natives in the late 1800s.




USA Civil Rights... 1964 was it?



No country is perfect.... nobody has the monopoly on morality.


My point was SOLELY about the US Constitution not being original nor exclusive nor revolutionary.


That was it... nothing else.

All of this other stuff is petty crap because you don't like the fact that your constitution is not as amazing and trailblazing as you've all been lead to believe.




posted on Dec, 17 2012 @ 08:55 AM
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Originally posted by Logarock

Originally posted by SpearMint

Originally posted by Logarock

Originally posted by michael1983l

Originally posted by marg6043
reply to post by blupblup
 


Guess what it is an unique document that still stands in our nation and until this day not politician or congress has been able to get rid of it even if they will love too.

So the argument is obsolete, the Constitution will stand even longer than any other document ever drafter and passed has done this far.

US constiution is unique and will ever be.


I wouldn't say unique I would more say outdated.

What did Winston say...."We will fight".


You are aware that was regarding a world war and Germany trying to invade England right? Not relatable to everyday USA really.


They were fighting for their rights and way of life were they not? Thats all I am saying. Germans! England! It used to be Britian did it not? What did that famous Welsh guy say....when he first heard the english language he knew it was the end for us.


They weren't just fighting for their rights, they were fighting to protect their country from destruction, invasion and mass genocide. It's a lot different, about as comparable as guns and cars. I don't even know why you keep talking about the Welsh.
edit on 17-12-2012 by SpearMint because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 17 2012 @ 08:56 AM
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Originally posted by Merriman Weir

Originally posted by Logarock
As a whole maybe they value life more. Or we have many more amoung us that dont.....so we stay armed.
edit on 17-12-2012 by Logarock because: n


Then, as I said, it's no point comparing the guns and the laws, you need to be looking at people and society.


Ok then I will make a note of that and keep it in mind. It sounds to me though that the Swiss have a form of our gun ideas. The 2nd was to serve as a way to keep the weapons in the hands ot the people. We just get to keep our live rounds with the gun rather than going down to the collection point.



posted on Dec, 17 2012 @ 08:57 AM
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Originally posted by SpearMint

Originally posted by KingIcarus
So? Less people get shot with handguns now. We haven't had a school shooting either.

It does still happen, of course, but when it does it's news because it's rare.

Suits us just fine.


Not that rare. In the US there was two in 2012, one in 2008, 2007, 2006, 2005, two in 2001, one in 1999, two in 1998. Before then it gets a little rarer, it seems like it's becoming more and more common, as are massacres not in a school.


And yet, we have more gun control in that timeperiod than any other in the past, indicating that more laws just don't do it.



posted on Dec, 17 2012 @ 08:59 AM
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Originally posted by NavyDoc

Originally posted by SpearMint

Originally posted by KingIcarus
So? Less people get shot with handguns now. We haven't had a school shooting either.

It does still happen, of course, but when it does it's news because it's rare.

Suits us just fine.


Not that rare. In the US there was two in 2012, one in 2008, 2007, 2006, 2005, two in 2001, one in 1999, two in 1998. Before then it gets a little rarer, it seems like it's becoming more and more common, as are massacres not in a school.


And yet, we have more gun control in that timeperiod than any other in the past, indicating that more laws just don't do it.


It does not mean that at all, it means the laws you have choosen are ineffective. Try an outright ban then if gun related deaths are not significantly reduced then you can get on your soap box.



posted on Dec, 17 2012 @ 08:59 AM
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Originally posted by NavyDoc

Originally posted by SpearMint

Originally posted by KingIcarus
So? Less people get shot with handguns now. We haven't had a school shooting either.

It does still happen, of course, but when it does it's news because it's rare.

Suits us just fine.


Not that rare. In the US there was two in 2012, one in 2008, 2007, 2006, 2005, two in 2001, one in 1999, two in 1998. Before then it gets a little rarer, it seems like it's becoming more and more common, as are massacres not in a school.


And yet, we have more gun control in that timeperiod than any other in the past, indicating that more laws just don't do it.


It doesn't indicate that at all. Were people still allowed to own guns in that time period? Yep, and that is the result. Nearly all, if not all of these massacres are done with a legally owned gun.
edit on 17-12-2012 by SpearMint because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 17 2012 @ 09:00 AM
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Originally posted by SpearMint

Originally posted by Logarock

Originally posted by SpearMint

Originally posted by Logarock

Originally posted by michael1983l

Originally posted by marg6043
reply to post by blupblup
 


Guess what it is an unique document that still stands in our nation and until this day not politician or congress has been able to get rid of it even if they will love too.

So the argument is obsolete, the Constitution will stand even longer than any other document ever drafter and passed has done this far.

US constiution is unique and will ever be.


I wouldn't say unique I would more say outdated.

What did Winston say...."We will fight".


You are aware that was regarding a world war and Germany trying to invade England right? Not relatable to everyday USA really.


They were fighting for their rights and way of life were they not? Thats all I am saying. Germans! England! It used to be Britian did it not? What did that famous Welsh guy say....when he first heard the english language he knew it was the end for us.


They weren't just fighting for their rights, they were fighting to protect their country from destruction, invasion and mass genocide. It's a lot different, about as comparable as guns and cars.
edit on 17-12-2012 by SpearMint because: (no reason given)


We here see our gun rights as protection of our country from distruction from home born tyrants.....and who ever else. When England came over in 1812 many of the men who came out to meet them took their weapons from their home and formed up into fighting units. Same with our first war with you guys. We cant let this capacity of a free people to be subjugated over some nuts that go crazy.
edit on 17-12-2012 by Logarock because: n



posted on Dec, 17 2012 @ 09:02 AM
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Originally posted by Logarock
What did that famous Welsh guy say....when he first heard the english language he knew it was the end for us.


Which is pretty much a nonsense as many of the supposedly 'celtic' tribes that spoke P-Celt languages/dialects had always been living alongside 'English' speakers. The rate of adoption of (Old) English by people on the British mainland across what's now England and the lowlands of Scotland post-Anglo Saxon invasion can only really be explained by the fact that many of the 'celtic' tribes before the Anglo Saxon invasion were already speaking an (Old) English dialect and not a P-celt tongue. Many of the 'celt' tribes were coming from Germanic areas of Europe.



posted on Dec, 17 2012 @ 09:03 AM
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reply to post by Logarock
 


Yep and those people that took up their guns would have been rolled over if it wasn't for a planned withdrawal by the Redcoats due to an iminant invasion on the UK by France. Your guns did not protect you then, the French did. Your guns will not protect you now either.



posted on Dec, 17 2012 @ 09:03 AM
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Originally posted by Merriman Weir

Originally posted by Honor93
reply to post by Merriman Weir
 


So, again, why isn't the US more like Switzerland?
disproportionate gun ownership.
not enough US households are armed and the Swiss mandate EVERY household be armed.



Swiss homes have guns primarily because of the way they've substituted their military with a mandatory basic service. However, ammunition is very different. Very few of the households who have guns because of this demographic (the main demographic of gun holders) keep ammunition at home, and since 2007 only specialist police units keep ammunition for the military-issued arms.


and, as mentioned previously, the Swiss don't have gun-free zones, either.


Because their 'carry' laws are very, very different. Permits to carry are heavily restricted to certain occupations.


However, those only apply to issued arms and ammunition. A Swiss citizen can have a semi-auto AR-15 and ammo that he bought himself.



To purchase a firearm in a commercial shop, one needs to have a Waffenerwerbsschein (weapon acquisition permit). A permit allows the purchase of three firearms. Everyone over the age of 18 who is not psychiatrically disabled (such as having had a history of endangering his own life or the lives of others) or identified as posing security problems, and who has a clean criminal record (requires a Criminal Records Bureau check) can request such a permit.[citation needed]
To buy a gun from an individual, no permit is needed, but the seller is expected to establish a reasonable certainty that the purchaser will fulfill the above-mentioned conditions (usually done through a Criminal Records Bureau check). The participants in such a transaction are required to prepare a written contract detailing the identities of both vendor and purchaser, the weapon's type, manufacturer, and serial number. The law requires the written contract to be kept for ten years by the buyer and seller. The seller is also required to see some official ID from the purchaser, for such sales are only allowed to Swiss nationals and foreigners with a valid residence permit, with the exception of those foreigners that come from certain countries (Croatia, Bosnia, Macedonia, Turkey, Sri Lanka, Albania, Algeria), to whom such sales are not allowed even if they do have a residence permit. Foreigners without a residence permit or from countries on the ban list must ask for a special permit.[citation needed]
After turning 18, any individual can buy singleshot or semiautomatic long arms (breech-loading or muzzle-loading) without a permit (so-called "free arms"). Likewise, members of a recognized rifle association do not need a buying permit for purchasing antique repeaters, and hunters do not need one for buying typical hunting rifles.[citation needed]
Basically, the sale of automatic firearms, selective fire weapons and certain accessories such as sound suppressors ("silencers") is forbidden (as is the sale of certain disabled automatic firearms which have been identified as easily restored to fully automatic capability). The purchase of such items is however legal with a special permit issued by cantonal police. The issuance of such a permit requires additional requirements to be met, e.g. the possession of a specific gun locker.[citation needed]
Most types of ammunition are available for commercial sale, including full metal jacket bullet calibres for military-issue weapons; hollow point rounds are only permitted for hunters. Ammunition sales are registered only at the point of sale by recording the buyer's name in a bound book



posted on Dec, 17 2012 @ 09:04 AM
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Originally posted by SpearMint

Originally posted by NavyDoc

Originally posted by SpearMint

Originally posted by KingIcarus
So? Less people get shot with handguns now. We haven't had a school shooting either.

It does still happen, of course, but when it does it's news because it's rare.

Suits us just fine.


Not that rare. In the US there was two in 2012, one in 2008, 2007, 2006, 2005, two in 2001, one in 1999, two in 1998. Before then it gets a little rarer, it seems like it's becoming more and more common, as are massacres not in a school.


And yet, we have more gun control in that timeperiod than any other in the past, indicating that more laws just don't do it.


It doesn't indicate that at all. Were people still allowed to own guns in that time period? Yep, and that is the result. Nearly all, if not all of these massacres are done with a legally owned gun.
edit on 17-12-2012 by SpearMint because: (no reason given)



So is that an indictment on legal gun ownership? What sort of stupid logic is that?

In the last two cases in this country the guns were stolen.



posted on Dec, 17 2012 @ 09:05 AM
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Originally posted by Logarock

Originally posted by SpearMint

Originally posted by Logarock

Originally posted by SpearMint

Originally posted by Logarock

Originally posted by michael1983l

Originally posted by marg6043
reply to post by blupblup
 


Guess what it is an unique document that still stands in our nation and until this day not politician or congress has been able to get rid of it even if they will love too.

So the argument is obsolete, the Constitution will stand even longer than any other document ever drafter and passed has done this far.

US constiution is unique and will ever be.


I wouldn't say unique I would more say outdated.

What did Winston say...."We will fight".


You are aware that was regarding a world war and Germany trying to invade England right? Not relatable to everyday USA really.


They were fighting for their rights and way of life were they not? Thats all I am saying. Germans! England! It used to be Britian did it not? What did that famous Welsh guy say....when he first heard the english language he knew it was the end for us.


They weren't just fighting for their rights, they were fighting to protect their country from destruction, invasion and mass genocide. It's a lot different, about as comparable as guns and cars.
edit on 17-12-2012 by SpearMint because: (no reason given)


We here see our gun rights as protection of our country from distruction from home born tyrants.....and who ever else. When England came over in 1812 many of the men who came out to meet them took their weapons from their home and formed up into fighting units. Same with our first war with you guys. We cant let this capacity of a free people to be subjugated over some nuts that go crazy.
edit on 17-12-2012 by Logarock because: n


It's not the 19th century any more, and you have a military for that. It's ridiculous that you're comparing it to WW2.

By the way, you refer to England as "you guys", I don't even live in England. I can see how it may be surprising for you to see someone stand up for a country that isn't their own.
edit on 17-12-2012 by SpearMint because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 17 2012 @ 09:06 AM
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Originally posted by Logarock

Originally posted by SpearMint

Originally posted by Logarock
reply to post by SpearMint
 


Yes. The laws will stop nothing.

If americans passed such laws in the wake of events, one would still see killings 50 years after the fact.



How can you say it stopped nothing without going back in time and observing what would have happened without the ban? Since then there's only been one massacre in the UK since then, and that's any kind of massacre, not just schools. Most massacres in the US are done with a legally obtained gun, like the incident you're talking about. You can't claim that the ban didn't stop anything.
edit on 17-12-2012 by SpearMint because: (no reason given)


It didnt stop the 2010 killings. The fact that you may have low numbers has to do with other factors.


No it didnt unfortunately, but that was a legally owned shotgun and so on.
But at the same time, being allowed to own guns didnt stop the guy shooting up a school, they didnt help the kids.

I'm not really anti or pro gun to be honest, you all have good points of view, maybe i'm jelouse because all i got is a pellet gun
but like the OP mentioned mass shootings are rare over here i can count on 1 hand the ammount over the last 10 years or so.





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