Dunblane School Massacre....ended handgun rights in UK

Originally posted by SpearMint

Originally posted by Honor93
reply to post by SpearMint

 

what does that 14yr period have to do with what you said ??
"and there hasn't been one since"
exaggerate much ?

Like I said, I was referring to school shootings. When I posted that it appeared to be what the thread was about. There hasn't been one since.

edit on 17-12-2012 by SpearMint because: (no reason given)

you were trying to imply that since the laws were enacted, that there hadn't been one since ... and rather admit you spoke erroneously, i'm mistaken
typical.

Originally posted by woogleuk
reply to post by Logarock

 

Cars weren't designed as instruments of death, the gun was.

Just assking....but how is that a factor here? Cars do kill more people so we must say that car deaths are the collateral damage in mans need for transportation?

Originally posted by Honor93

Originally posted by SpearMint

Originally posted by Honor93
reply to post by SpearMint

 

what does that 14yr period have to do with what you said ??
"and there hasn't been one since"
exaggerate much ?

Like I said, I was referring to school shootings. When I posted that it appeared to be what the thread was about. There hasn't been one since.

edit on 17-12-2012 by SpearMint because: (no reason given)

you were trying to imply that since the laws were enacted, that there hadn't been one since ... and rather admit you spoke erroneously, i'm mistaken

typical.

There HASN'T been one since.

reply to post by Logarock



The facts are this, in the UK last year we had 58 homicides that where caused by a gun, In America the figure is something like 8500, even if you factor in population deaths that is still a disproportionate figure. A large part of the reasoning behind that is that in the UK we have very strict gun laws and by extension of that we do not have these kind of regular mass shootings as such we have less gun crime that in America.

reply to post by Logarock


Because a person doesn't (usually) set out to kill someone in their car, accidental killing over gun murder, you can't compare them.

Other arguments I have heard in this is that more people die per year undergoing surgery, but again it is a weak argument, the surgeon doesn't intend to kill the patient.

Originally posted by SpearMint

Originally posted by Honor93
reply to post by SpearMint

 

why are you conveniently forgetting that guns also SAVE ppl and more often than not.
how many cars do that ? and alcohol ?? yeah, sure, right.

Why are you comparing guns saving lives with cars and alcohol? That's a good example of the stupid arguments often used in these debates.

just following the conversation.
why are you avoiding the fact that guns SAVE ppl and more often than not ?

Originally posted by Logarock
Well as you have show having guns or not has nothing to do with it. So untill the US comes to some point of assention passing all maner or restrictive guns laws will stop nothing here. We cant be like UK or Switzerland and thats why the matter of society comparisons will have little use here.

My point is that its fruitless comparing the US and the UK as there's no comparable levels of gun ownership. However, there is a point to comparing the US to Switzerland as there are comparable levels of gun ownership. So, again, why isn't the US more like Switzerland?

Originally posted by woogleuk
reply to post by Logarock

 

Because a person doesn't (usually) set out to kill someone in their car, accidental killing over gun murder, you can't compare them.

Other arguments I have heard in this is that more people die per year undergoing surgery, but again it is a weak argument, the surgeon doesn't intend to kill the patient.

And there are millions of cars on the road all the time, it's not a fair comparison statistically either.

Originally posted by Honor93

Originally posted by SpearMint

Originally posted by Honor93
reply to post by SpearMint

 

why are you conveniently forgetting that guns also SAVE ppl and more often than not.
how many cars do that ? and alcohol ?? yeah, sure, right.

Why are you comparing guns saving lives with cars and alcohol? That's a good example of the stupid arguments often used in these debates.

just following the conversation.
why are you avoiding the fact that guns SAVE ppl and more often than not ?

Save people from what? Other people with guns.

The results of banning hand guns in the UK should be looked at by American citizens and acted upon accordingly. But I am certain that American Citizens won't do this because their culture deems them far too selfish to do so.

reply to post by SpearMint

Before the laws there wasn't a problem like there is in the US

the ONLY thing this proves is that Brits prefer more barbaric methods of taking a life ... congrats

Originally posted by Honor93
reply to post by SpearMint

 

Before the laws there wasn't a problem like there is in the US

the ONLY thing this proves is that Brits prefer more barbaric methods of taking a life ... congrats

Show me those statistics then. The homicide rate is very low in the UK taking all methods in to account. It's very high in the US. So no, it doesn't.

Originally posted by Honor93
reply to post by SpearMint

 

Before the laws there wasn't a problem like there is in the US

the ONLY thing this proves is that Brits prefer more barbaric methods of taking a life ... congrats

As opposed to the civilised slaughter on Friday?

reply to post by Logarock


But then again, the UK or any other country in the world do not have and never had a document call the USA Constitution either and a Supreme court that most of the time will side with the protection of the US constitutional rights of citizens.

reply to post by SpearMint

oh, so we're supposed to know you're only talking about schools, even though the OP mentions others ?? interesting perspective you have there.

well, be that as it may, it certainly wasn't the "law" that's responsible.
however, if you believe it is, good luck.

Originally posted by marg6043
reply to post by Logarock

 

But then again, the UK or any other country in the world do not have and never had a document call the USA Constitution either and a Supreme court that most of the time will side with the protection of the US constitutional rights of citizens.

What... I'm guessing you've never heard of the Magna Carta then?

simple.wikipedia.org...

en.wikipedia.org...

It was THE original "constitution" long before your country was even thought of....

Democracy, Rights and Liberty STARTED in the UK.... you may remember Obama saying a similar thing in a speech in the UK in the last year or so.

Centuries ago, when kings, emperors, and warlords reigned over much of the world, it was the English who first spelled out the rights and liberties of man in the Magna Carta. It was here, in this very hall, where the rule of law first developed, courts were established, disputes were settled, and citizens came to petition their leaders.

Over time, the people of this nation waged a long and sometimes bloody struggle to expand and secure their freedom from the crown. Propelled by the ideals of the Enlightenment, they would ultimately forge an English Bill of Rights, and invest the power to govern in an elected parliament that’s gathered here today.

What began on this island would inspire millions throughout the continent of Europe and across the world. But perhaps no one drew greater inspiration from these notions of freedom than your rabble-rousing colonists on the other side of the Atlantic. As Winston Churchill said, the “…Magna Carta, the Bill of Rights, Habeas Corpus, trial by jury, and English common law find their most famous expression in the American Declaration of Independence.”

For both of our nations, living up to the ideals enshrined in these founding documents has sometimes been difficult, has always been a work in progress. The path has never been perfect. But through the struggles of slaves and immigrants, women and ethnic minorities, former colonies and persecuted religions, we have learned better than most that the longing for freedom and human dignity is not English or American or Western –- it is universal, and it beats in every heart. Perhaps that’s why there are few nations that stand firmer, speak louder, and fight harder to defend democratic values around the world than the United States and the United Kingdom.

www.whitehouse.gov...



No matter what you may have learnt or have been told....your country and It's constitution is not unique, wasn't a first and was not revolutionary.... just a continuation of something started elsewhere.

Originally posted by OtherSideOfTheCoin
reply to post by Logarock

 

The facts are this, in the UK last year we had 58 homicides that where caused by a gun, In America the figure is something like 8500, even if you factor in population deaths that is still a disproportionate figure. A large part of the reasoning behind that is that in the UK we have very strict gun laws and by extension of that we do not have these kind of regular mass shootings as such we have less gun crime that in America.

Even americans hold that its something about the UK world rather than its gun laws that keep these numbers down. Both points have been brought up as the reason. Even hard core in this country respect the low numbers in the UK.

Over here we have all sorts of laws. For one like anywhere its not lawful to shoot somebody without set conditions. People do it any way. Many that use guns in crime were not allowed to have the guns in the first place.....and many times these gun laws are waved. We had a mandatory 5 year law for just the use of a hangun in a crime......but the prosecutors started waving the law themselves or using it to work out terms in the case. When americans see and hear this sort of thing happening in our justice system we fight harder for our rights to keep and bear. This may put some light on a bit of american attitude about guns here.

Originally posted by SpearMint

You don't know what would have happened, so anything you say on the subject is speculation. You still haven't realised that it's meaningless to compare the US to the UK, it's totally different.

I agree completely. This thread is BS as you have just stated so eloquently. Why did you waste all of our time with a thread that even you state is meaningless? The US and the UK are totally different.

reply to post by marg6043


With rights come responsibility, which clearly far too many Americans do not have.

Whether the shooters or the attitudes of people towards deadly weapons.

You need look no further than Youtube to see just how responsible Americans can be with firearms.

I know this isn't true for the majority, but it's like they say, it only takes a few to spoil it.

reply to post by Merriman Weir

So, again, why isn't the US more like Switzerland?

disproportionate gun ownership.
not enough US households are armed and the Swiss mandate EVERY household be armed.
and, as mentioned previously, the Swiss don't have gun-free zones, either.