Dunblane School Massacre....ended handgun rights in UK

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posted on Dec, 18 2012 @ 01:46 PM
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Originally posted by SisyphusRide
reply to post by OtherSideOfTheCoin
 


America is not a liberal nation... England is though.



Our ideas are originally and wholly American, as I have stated America is a Nation of immigrants.


All of the ideas the forefathers supported were extremely liberal for the time. Not sure where you're getting we aren't a liberal nation, other than your political beliefs. The fact is we are a liberal nation, politics aside. We are way more liberal than England.

And the ideas they supported weren't their own. They took the ideas from people like John Locke and others. Not sure what your basis for saying "our ideas are originally and wholly american" is. If you study American history even briefly you learn that most of their ideas came from others.
Do you believe we created the first ever democracy, or republic, too?




posted on Dec, 18 2012 @ 02:16 PM
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reply to post by Honor93
 




Nope...what you did show in your original links where a lengthy document showing indepth analysis and graphs pertaining to the period 1981 -1995/96....and then a vauge mention of up to 2008

Then you have seemingly gloated to find and show another link that you feel strengthens your argument.....when in actual fact when you click on that link it confirms what i have already claimed to you. That the BCS is the most reliable source for actual violent crime figures....and that the way in which voilent crime is reported and recorded as changed during that period ... so BCS figures ARE reliable.....and it quite clearly shows in section 2, a graph pertaining to the BCS figures that quite clearly show a marked reduction in violent crime since 1995.......

I am a little puzzled as to what point you are trying to make with that last link....other than confirming the claims I have already made.......and it doesn't appear there is a need for me to post links and show sources to prove my point.....because you are already doing my work for me.
I'm not trying to be argumentative.....but if you have a point you are trying to make then maybe you need to be a little clearer about what that point is.....because so far I have only seen information from you that supports MY statements?
I could only nip on for 10 mins so I will come back and have another look at the link you posted and give you the benefit of the doubt that while I am in a rush I am missing something.



posted on Dec, 18 2012 @ 03:29 PM
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Originally posted by Ghost375
All of the ideas the forefathers supported were extremely liberal for the time. Not sure where you're getting we aren't a liberal nation, other than your political beliefs. The fact is we are a liberal nation, politics aside. We are way more liberal than England.


liberal for their time you don't need to say any more actually... this is the future time period which we live. America is a Conservative Nation I believe more so because our direct defense of the unchanging Constitution. I believe we have a little bit of both Liberalism and Conservatism, afterall we are America.

I feel we lean a little more to the right (conservatism) simply because of the battles of the issues the liberals/progressives/democrats have had and are dealing with.

There are only 17 amendments to the Constitution if you don't count the Bill of Rights which is just an extension of definitions... not bad for a document approaching a quarter of a millennium in age.

Defense of the Constitution and living by its entitlements... are conservative actions.

edit on 18-12-2012 by SisyphusRide because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 18 2012 @ 08:01 PM
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Originally posted by Asheliate
To all the people that claim Sandy Hook was some kind of conspiracy to make a grab at your guns: Do you realize that if you are wrong then you are in essence justifying your ownership of guns at the expense of more innocent lives?



Originally posted by Honor93

Do you realize that if you are wrong
we're not.

then you are in essence justifying your ownership of guns at the expense of more innocent lives?
self defense needs NO justification.

do you realize that if only ONE of the six adults murdered had been "allowed" to defend themselves, maybe 20 children would still be alive, today ?
gun-free zones are a joke and an invitation to destruction.

clueless is as clueless does, hence, we have 20 dead children.


You know, Honor 93, you are a very difficult person to debate with. You either clearly have reading comprehension issues or are just a mean, angry person that twists comments in an attempt to attack others at every turn.



posted on Dec, 18 2012 @ 11:29 PM
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Originally posted by OtherSideOfTheCoin
reply to post by Honor93
 


Regardless of what inspired him John Locke is recognise historically as being the father of liberalism. And I have been involved in that thread so no need for the link.


so ?? what does liberalism have to do with the DoI or the Constitution ?
they are not synonymous by any stretch of the imagination.
btw, i included the link for anyone else who may be interested.

and, what does either have to do with increases in violent crime in the UK ?



posted on Dec, 18 2012 @ 11:36 PM
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post removed because the user has no concept of manners

Click here for more information.



posted on Dec, 18 2012 @ 11:38 PM
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reply to post by Asheliate
 

and your comment applies to the topic, how exactly ?
no argument eh ?
not surprising.

btw, thanks for the chuckle

i am amused by those who claim their "quoted commentary" equates to someone else twisting their commentary ... what an enjoyable ride ... thanks again.
edit on 18-12-2012 by Honor93 because: add txt



posted on Dec, 19 2012 @ 12:55 AM
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A Politician at a press conference after the Dunblane massacre told a reporter to one side ,''The banning of handguns has nothing to do with this massacre ,by 2015 there will be no jobs ,no social security ,people will be rioting in the streets ,and the last thing we want is for the public to have guns '',How did this Politician know the country would be in turmoil by 2015 ? because its been planned to happen ?



posted on Dec, 19 2012 @ 01:09 AM
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Originally posted by Logos23
reply to post by Honor93
 

Then you have seemingly gloated to find and show another link that you feel strengthens your argument.....when in actual fact when you click on that link it confirms what i have already claimed to you. That the BCS is the most reliable source for actual violent crime figures....


Your Wikipedia source is reliable. This is even supported by Honor93's own source.


Originally posted by Honor93

UK Violent Crime Rate: 4,100 per 100,000 citizens
(Year: 2003 www.homeoffice.gov.uk... )


Furthermore, Honor93's source suggests that there is not an increase in crime.


The British Crime Survey (BCS), the most reliable measure of overall violent crime, estimates that violent crime has fallen since 1995 and is now stable, but the underlying picture is that the nature of violent crime is changing. Domestic violence and acquaintance violence have fallen since 1995 while stranger violence and muggings have remained stable, therefore changing the composition of violent crime.


I may be wrong, but I do not have time to read Honor93's 200 pages of documents because of his/her paranoia of Wikipedia.

Your source shows that the handgun ban has NOT resulted in increased gun crimes. Perhaps the decrease in crime has nothing to do with the handgun ban, but the handgun ban certainly has not increased crime either.
edit on 12/19/2012 by Asheliate because: (no reason given)
edit on 12/19/2012 by Asheliate because: (no reason given)
edit on 12/19/2012 by Asheliate because: (no reason given)
edit on 12/19/2012 by Asheliate because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 19 2012 @ 01:58 AM
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reply to post by Asheliate
 

so, let me get this straight ... i'm told to use the BCS cause they're right.
and i link the BCS and Logos says, they're wrong.

you come along and add ... maybe there's some truth here, but then discredit the BCS report yourself.

so, which is it ladies ... does the BCS have it right, or not ?

btw, the BCS report only covers the 5 yrs, post-ban from 1999-2003 ... not the before years or the continuing increases through 2011.

so then, let's look at some of what the BCS report contains ... then you can debunk it rather hurl insults and personal attacks at me.

from the only links provided from the BCS thus far:

webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk...://rds.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs04/rdsolr1804.pdf
The BCS shows an increase in the proportion of violent crimes that are reported to the police, from 35 per cent in 1999 to 41 per cent in 2002/03. In the same period the BCS estimates that the recording of reported crime increased from 36 per cent to 52 per cent.

- snip -

Recorded crimes involving firearms - Post Gun Ban / 02-03 only
• In 2002/03 firearms were used in 0.9 per cent of all violence against the person crimes and 4.4 per cent of all robberies. Together these comprise 49 per cent of all firearm offences.

• Firearms (including air weapons) were reported to have been used in 7,133 violence against the person crimes in 2002/03. This was a twenty-two per cent increase over the previous year.

• Firearms (including air weapons) were reported to have been used in 4,776 robbery offences in 2002/03. This was a 13 per cent decrease over the previous year, following a 33 per cent increase in 2001/02.
(which is still a 20% increase from 2000)

• About two per cent of all firearm crime resulted in a serious injury. There were 572 serious injuries resulting from crimes that involved firearms (including air weapons) in 2002/03, up three per cent from 2001/02.

and, i linked a US govt comparison for a similar time period.
no paranoia of Wiki, i just prefer solid sources and that isn't Wiki.

i would guess neither of you read the above or care to but you're both right, the truth is available for those interested



posted on Dec, 19 2012 @ 02:09 AM
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reply to post by Honor93
 


First of all, you challenged Logos23's Wikipedia source but failed to realize that it was also your own.

Secondly, the statistics you are providing are only for a few years. If you look at the Wikipedia source, it is clear that crime has nonetheless been steadily decreasing despite a few bumps in the road.

en.wikipedia.org...




posted on Dec, 19 2012 @ 04:51 AM
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reply to post by SisyphusRide
 




Defense of the Constitution and living by its entitlements... are conservative actions.


It always amazes me that Americans on this site rant about constitutional values and conservatism (another European political ideology, not American) they go on about the defence of freedoms yet as soon as it is pointed out that what they are supporting is classical liberalism they deny it. All you are doing is arguing semantics, the American constitution is a liberal document the bill of rights is a liberal document the idea of “rights” is a liberal ideal.

I have lost count of the number of times I have had to point highlight constitutional points to Americans, just the other day I had to explain about the role of congress in declaring war. In this case I find myself having to explain the most fundamentals of the constitution that it is liberal, it was written as a liberal document all of the ideas in it are found in European idea’s.

You talk of conservatism, that is again a European ideology it has its roots in France but it was in England that what we would now call western conservatism really developed. American conservatism has its roots in the American revolutionaries and their commitment to maintain rights and liberties as such many see this as just another brand of liberalism by another name. By conservatism I would assume what you mean is that you see your political ideology as defending the constitution and the rights and liberties it states you have as a citizen. That constitution is liberal, hence why us Europeans see American conservatism as liberalism by another name as it is just really a political ideology of saying that we believe in a upholding classical liberal tradition.



posted on Dec, 19 2012 @ 05:57 AM
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Originally posted by OtherSideOfTheCoin
reply to post by SisyphusRide
 




Defense of the Constitution and living by its entitlements... are conservative actions.


It always amazes me that Americans on this site rant about constitutional values and conservatism (another European political ideology, not American) they go on about the defence of freedoms yet as soon as it is pointed out that what they are supporting is classical liberalism they deny it. All you are doing is arguing semantics, the American constitution is a liberal document the bill of rights is a liberal document the idea of “rights” is a liberal ideal.
What can I say besides lol? it always amazes me how the British seem to like to take credit for America but on their other face they despise them... Classical liberalism is one thing, it's not the topic or debate here, what you have and know and live under is modern liberalism, and it has reduced you to an island with sharia zones and the most popular baby name being Mohammed and not George anymore. The reality of the situation speaks for itself.


I have lost count of the number of times I have had to point highlight constitutional points to Americans, just the other day I had to explain about the role of congress in declaring war. In this case I find myself having to explain the most fundamentals of the constitution that it is liberal, it was written as a liberal document all of the ideas in it are found in European idea’s.
Again we have more in common with the French in the drafting of our Constitution. Think I don't know my own congress's role? Just the other day I had to explain to people that the Marines are the only branch of out military under direct control of the executive branch... Congress controls the rest of the military as you may know of it.


You talk of conservatism, that is again a European ideology
Explain to me then why you are not conservative and the island is sinking? England lets others import their ideals. The British seem to not require one to become British upon becoming a citizen... it's your own aristocracy's fault... something we don't believe in like Kings and Queens and bloodlines.

If you want to be American... move to America.



posted on Dec, 19 2012 @ 06:03 AM
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Originally posted by Asheliate
reply to post by Honor93
 


First of all, you challenged Logos23's Wikipedia source but failed to realize that it was also your own.

Secondly, the statistics you are providing are only for a few years. If you look at the Wikipedia source, it is clear that crime has nonetheless been steadily decreasing despite a few bumps in the road.


since 2008 concealed carry permits have risen by 40%, meanwhile crime rate in America has been decreasing quite a bit...

legallyarmed.com...

Interesting Factoid; there are almost an equal number of armed concealed carry American citizens as their is the population of England. If you don't count the concealed carry's and just factor the number of Americans armed under their constitutional right I believe it is 60% of 350 some odd million. if I am not mistaken England's population is 55 million with 20 million of them being non natives. That is roughly equal to population of the state of California stuffed into the space the size of the state of Louisiana. Things get uncomfortable in such tight confines, England needs elbow room, lebensraum


edit on 19-12-2012 by SisyphusRide because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 19 2012 @ 08:05 AM
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reply to post by SisyphusRide
 


Firstly I do not want to be American, I do not want to live in America, nor do I “despise” America or deny its contribution to the world I think if you were to realise this and stop being so defensive you may just learn something from me. Now I do not wish to offend you but I don’t think that political philosophy is your strong suit so please if it is a case that you don’t know enough about this to discuss it then don’t discuss it. I know naff all about UFO’s so I avoid that topic of conversation.

Now

Yes I do not deny that the French, in particular Rousseau have an influence on the American constitution but he was influenced by Locke just like your forefathers where. Locke is the father of liberalism the American constitution is a liberal document as such it is clear that Locke and his philosophies have a massive influence on the American constitution.

America is perhaps the most liberal nation on earth even more liberal than the UK which just now has a canter-right PM. Your views on Brittan are wrong, I have a thread on this very topic if you are interested but know this, we are not subject to Sharia Law and most of us like the whole multiculturalism thing. That being said America is way more liberal than Brittan, just look at the differences we have on Gun control and Abortion, when it comes to these America is way more liberal.

This in some instances is a good thing, you should not be trying to shy away from your liberal roots but celebrating them they are part of your history. The key point however is that your constitution is not based on American ideas have you have claimed but largely European, there is not really any significant original ideas in the constitution, they all came from Europe, and the liberal stuff that was the British.



posted on Dec, 19 2012 @ 08:14 AM
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I can't seem to see anyone mentioning the conspiracy behind Dunblane:

en.wikipedia.org...

From Wiki:
"The released documents revealed that in 1991, following Hamilton's Loch Lomond summer camp, complaints were made to Central Scotland Police and were investigated by the Child Protection Unit. Hamilton was reported to the Procurator Fiscal for consideration of ten charges, including assault, obstructing police and contravention of the Children and Young Persons (Scotland) Act 1937. No action was taken."

The consipracy goes Thomas Hamilton was known to the police but because he had a Masonic connection, he wasnt properly processed therefore he was allowed to keep his guns.
The other (or more crazy if you ask me) assertion is that he was a patsy for darker goings on and was used as a chess piece in a move to dispose of witnesses/victims and abate gun ownership in the UK all in one swoop.

edit on 19-12-2012 by Jukiodone because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 19 2012 @ 09:22 AM
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Originally posted by SpearMint
And it hasn't happened since.


Indeed this is true. I'm into hand guns but I can't under stand why people need uzi's or m14's at home. surely a Beretta 9mm is enough for home protection.

The obvious extra though is that the powers that be will use this # to get fewer homes owning guns so over a 100 year period the police state can be finalized and the public can't fight back/.



posted on Dec, 19 2012 @ 10:09 AM
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reply to post by Jukiodone
 





The consipracy goes Thomas Hamilton was known to the police but because he had a Masonic connection, he wasnt properly processed therefore he was allowed to keep his guns.
reply to post by Jukiodone
 


Hamilton probably had a pedo mate in the police force covering his ass for him. Happens a lot all over the world. All he had to say to any pedo he knew was on the force was 'if I'm going down I'm taking you with me' and viola, problems all gone. Not some grand scale conspiracy, just one scumbag covering for another.



posted on Dec, 19 2012 @ 10:11 AM
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reply to post by SisyphusRide
 




if I am not mistaken England's population is 55 million with 20 million of them being non natives.


60 million, about 10% ethnic minority or foreign born. In London, more immigrants and ethnics than locals though.



posted on Dec, 19 2012 @ 10:48 AM
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Norway: Proof That Strict Gun Laws Don't Work?

For those who aren't aware, Norway has some of the strictest gun control laws in the world. Despite those strict gun control laws, a lone gunman was able to obtain an entire arsenal of weapons including an automatic assault rifle -- which is banned. Obviously, Norway's strict gun laws did nothing to protect the defenseless victims in the recent Oslo shooting spree. So the question must be asked: is this yet more proof that gun laws don't work because criminals don't obey laws in the first place?

For a description of Norway's tough but apparently ineffective gun ownership laws, click the link to an article in The Guardian:

www.guardian.co.uk...
Read More: www.guardian.co.uk...





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