Guns Don't Make Us Free. Period.

reply to post by Asktheanimals

Personal defense is one of the best arguments for 2nd amendment. Police isn't there to protect you 24/7. The whole criminal vs. law abiding citizen is offtopic. This is about tyranny vs. armed citizenry. US is a shining example that a tyranny can flourish while the citizens is happily armed. It's not open for interpretation. It's a fact.

reply to post by Asktheanimals


Thank you for saying that so well! That is exactly the point.

Everyone I know with guns are extremely responsible with them. They lock them away from children, and teach their children to respect them. They know the laws and follow them responsibly, including respecting which states co-honor the concealed carry licenses.

The very fact that so many citizens own guns and yet it is not blatantly obvious makes it clear that this works. You do not know walking down the street who has a concealed weapon, or which women have a weapon in their purse, and no one even thinks about it.

Knowing that everyone has guns does not make reasonable people afraid.

reply to post by PsykoOps

Personal defense is one of the best arguments for 2nd amendment. Police isn't there to protect you 24/7. The whole criminal vs. law abiding citizen is offtopic. This is about tyranny vs. armed citizenry. US is a shining example that a tyranny can flourish while the citizens is happily armed. It's not open for interpretation. It's a fact.

Good and evil are both ALWAYS present….guns just even the odds. A 100lb woman is as tough as a 250lb Navy SEAL when they both have a gun. It simply comes down to situational awareness and the element of surprise (mental ability).

THE GREAT EQUALIZER!!!

Originally posted by michael1983l
reply to post by BlueAjah

 

And what you have just said there is just what has been indoctrined into you since birth by your gun loving parents. I have never owned a gun, I have never been threatened by a gun and I have certainly never needed a gun. That goes for EVERYONE I know. When guns are completely illigal, even the criminals struggle to get hold of them and in general the criminals tend to use them on each other most of the time anyways. You will never understand what it feels like to live without fear of being shot by one of your fellow Citizens. I would not swap our laws for yours if your paid me a million dollars. The USA and the word FREEDOM is just used as a tool to get you to do what your government wants.

You are right about that this has been indoctrinated into us since birth - as a right. It is passed down to us from the founders of our country, who told us to pass it down. If people did not inform their children about the importance of this, it might fade away.

I do not live in fear of being shot by a fellow citizen - at all. Most people are reasonable do not have this fear. No one I know has this fear. So, I'm not sure what you mean about that. Shootings are actually rare compared to the number of guns. Actually, some of the most violent cities are the ones with stricter gun laws, because there only criminals carry guns.

Originally posted by michael1983l
reply to post by MsAphrodite

 

Governments can only perputrate tyranny if it has the support of enouigh of its citizens to do so. That is a completely seperate issue. I am however a little confused as to how you can relate legalized gun ownership as the bringer of "safety". All you need to look at there is statistics of gun related crime and gun related death when compared with a nation that has strict gun ownership laws. More people owning guns = more chance of being in the firing line as far as I am concerned.

Your answer shows a lack of reading comprehension about what I asked you. First of all a government gains the position to perpetuate tyranny when the people are unable to defend themselves against that government. This is fundamental to why our founders gave us the 2nd Amendment.

Second, I did not equate gun ownership as the bringer of safety. I said that you have the choice of maintaining your liberty, or a perceived sense of safety through the blind trust that government can and will protect you. Why would you trust that your leaders are somehow more honorable and benevolent than you yourself and your fellow citizens? History shows that power is a great corrupter. The people are armed via the 2nd Amendment to protect themselves. There are risks in life and liberty, but there are greater risks in giving up your liberty for government promised safety.

The truth is you are never safe. Life comes with inherent risks. People die every single day.

Originally posted by MsAphrodite
Your answer shows a lack of reading comprehension about what I asked you. First of all a government gains the position to perpetuate tyranny when the people are unable to defend themselves against that government. This is fundamental to why our founders gave us the 2nd Amendment.

So why hasn't the citizens then stopped tyranny in the US? If 2nd amendment is supposed to protect against tyranny why can a facist government exist then right along side the armed citizens? It may have been intented as a protection against tyranny by the founding fathers but it's pretty obviously a complete failure.

reply to post by PsykoOps


As Asktheanimals indicated above, this is probably because most citizens are reasonable and are not going to resort to violence unless it is a last resort. People have not yet given up on the possibility that things can be fixed through reasonable means.

Originally posted by seeker1963
reply to post by milominderbinder

 

So because no one has done anything your solution is to curl up into a ball and allow things to get worse?

No...that's the point. It's not "giving up" anything and nobody is "curling up into a ball"...the Second Amendment has done us ZERO good thus far.

Your own OP suggests that we have a very corrupt government does it not?
Correct.

So just what will happen once the threat of the citizens rising up against them is muted???

There never HAS BEEN any "threat of the citizens rising up"...that's the point. Well...at least not since the Civil War anyways. If you think having guns has "deterred" anything you're out of your mind. If it was an ACTUAL deterrent...YOU ALREADY WOULDN'T BE ALLOWED TO HAVE THEM!!

Owing guns or not owning guns has little to do with slowing down the criminality infesting out governing bodies.

How about simply turning off the power grid to a non-compliant populace? Far simpler than battling in the streets. How about devaluing a populace's currency so they are continually struggling to make ends meet? Too simple. How about a good pandemic or threat there of? Guns need not even be on the menu other than a good distraction like gay marriage.

Blaming a supposedly lackadaisical gun owning population is just as absurd. What/Whom are they supposed to shoot? During the bailouts for example, who needed a good shooting then? That was a production brought to you by tens of thousands. Even if there had been an armed uprising, the Blamers would soil their linens and beg for continued servitude instead of the possibility they may have to actually stand up and be a citizen.

Originally posted by Rikku
reply to post by seeker1963

 

So just what will happen once the threat of the citizens rising up against them is muted???

i think the point of the thread is that you cant keep using that argument as it is an empty threat.

Exactly. It's a JOKE. All this tough-guy talk is simply NONSENSE....especially since the majority of it is coming from BABY BOOMERS.

What...a bunch of overweight senior citizens are going stand up to take the government back w/ Grandpa's shotgun? It's RIDICULOUS.

Originally posted by TruthSeekerMike
So we might as well just hand our guns over to the corrupt jerks then. You're right, they beat us. We should all give up entirely.

You've ALREADY GIVEN UP ENTIRELY. That's the point...if every man, woman, and child have 1000 machine guns and 10 million rounds for them...it would provide ZERO deterrent to screwing over the peasants because TPTB KNOW THAT IT'S ALL JUST A BUNCH OF BS HOT AIR.

It was Nixon who started the insane war on drugs btw.

Sure. Sorry to offend His Holiness St. Ronald Reagan. Yes...Nixon used the term "war on drugs" and started "getting tough". However...Reagan used it as his platform and the arrests didn't start going damn-near vertical until after 1980.

Here is your graph.



If you wanna blame Nixon for it all...go nuts. To me...it seems more like a problem with Reagan.

Originally posted by oper8zhin
[color=dodgerblue]The FOUNDERS of this great country included an AMENDMENT in our Bill Of Rights that give us citizens the RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS. PERIOD.

For those who disagree with our FORE-FATHERS WHO FOUNDED THIS COUNTRY, GET THE HELL OUT OF THE COUNTRY OR SHUT THE HELL UP ABOUT GUN CONTROL.

TWO CHOICES: SHUT UP, OR LEAVE AS YOU ARE ACTUALLY A TRAITOR ANYWAYS IF YOU IGNORE OUR BILL OF RIGHTS.

Period.

End of discussion.

Right to keep and bear arms

A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

Way to miss the entire point of the thread, dude.

No...that's the point. It's not "giving up" anything and nobody is "curling up into a ball"...the Second Amendment has done us ZERO good thus far.

And the 20,000 gun laws on the books between local,state, and federal has done such a wonderful job.


Asktheanimals owned because that is a fact the majority of gun owners first instinct is not picking up a ar-15 and just spray and pray.

It is using the mechanisms in place set according to the law.

It's better to have them and not need them than need them and not have them.
PERIOD.

If you don't like the Bill of Rights, go to Mexico where their crime rate is so much better with their gun laws.

Quit fooling YOURself….If not for the NRA we (Americans) would already be disarmed.

So? BEING armed certainly hasn't done us any good...has it? I'm not saying I'm FOR gun control...I'm just saying it's a non-issue. Every NRA member could have their own Abrams M-1 Tank...none of you would do a damn thing with it except keep and shiny and brag about how tough you think you are.

...at least that has certainly been the pattern pretty much since WWII ended.

Outlawing gun ownership is the final piece of the puzzle. It’s the final step in rendering the nation powerless….and it will fail.

Stop lying to yourself...YOUR ALREADY powerless. You have guns now...and it has done you zero good.

Make no mistake, THEY ARE coming for our guns…again. This may lead to the next civil war. The difference this time is that Americans are much more informed, and those who serve/have served will not follow the direction of the NWO-types who seek control over OUR families.

So...you'll let the government completely screw you, and every one of your fellow Americans over for 5 decades...but you draw the line at the gun that is allegedly supposed to keep you "free"...but which hasn't done so in any way shape or form to date.

Let the games begin…take a shot, PTB! Our chins are raised high and we know what’s coming!

Go get'em cowboy. I just don't believe you.

I have a Marine that went to war and only part of his mind came back..
They see a civil war every day those Americans that came back will not hand down there Guns without dieing for there country...
Its sad one stupid kid. is used as a piece of the puzzle..

Between your spelling and the admission that your son is at least half out of his mind right now...aren't you guys the exact sort of people that we should all be a little concerned about?

Wars are won with weapons. Owning weapons makes you less vulnerable to the control of others.

Incorrect. The level of weaponry has little to no impact on who "wins the war"....it typically is only a determining factor in who wins the battle.

Hannibal had a superior army and navy...and Rome won. Sun-Tzu was outnumbered and out-armed in most the battles he fought. Washington beat the British. The U.S. beat BOTH the Japanese AND the Germans AT THE SAME TIME...both had superior military forces.

Meanwhile...we lost BADLY in Vietnam despite having 100% air superiority and dropping more explosives on them than we used during all of WWII....and we also lost in Iraq and Afghanistan.

...and there are about 6,000 more examples of VASTLY superior military forces winning lots and lots of battles...AND LOSING THE WAR throughout history. In fact...it's more common than the better armed force WINNING the war.

Originally posted by michael1983l
reply to post by seabag

 

So if owning a gun keeps all of these things from happening, why are you no free'er living in the USA today than say if you compare with Ireland, France, the UK or Japan. The citizens of these countries are being treated no differently to US citizens and fire arms are illigal so your whole point is mute as far as I can see.

Thinking that owning a gun is the only thing stopping your government from ruling you is merely paranoia.

edit on 16-12-2012 by michael1983l because: (no reason given)

Exactly. It's delusional.

Granted...I WISH it were just that simple...but it isn't. We are actually the LEAST FREE country on planet earth. 25% of the worlds prisoner population is here in the united states and we have only 4.2%-ish of the population. You are 23X MORE LIKELY to be incarcerated as an American citizen than under the "oppressive" Chinese government.

In America we retain the right (and means) to ensure that freedom. I can walk out of my front door tomorrow and buy 100 guns an 1,000,0000 rounds of ammo without a problem...I can TOMORROW...next year is a different story.

The citizens of those countries are susceptible to the whims of their government and have no final recourse; they've already been neutered. Its no surprise that people who have never experienced CONTROL over their government would argue that there is no difference.

You don't miss what you've never had...

edit on 16-12-2012 by seabag because: (no reason given)

edit on 16-12-2012 by seabag because: (no reason given)

Really? Because I see it more as your guns just give you a false sense of security.

The citizens in those "neutered" nations have more freedoms than you do...and more stable governments I might add.

Originally posted by PsykoOps
There are arguments for 2nd amendment but this whole hoohaa about stopping tyranny isn't one of them. Armed citizens won't do anything to stop tyranny and US is a shining example of that.

Precisely. Owning a gun as "tool" for hunting or keeping down certain pests and animals is a VERY valid argument.

...but let's face it...Americans simply do not have the balls to use them as deterrent against something that ACTUALLY MATTERS anyways.

...so what good to they do?