The Bible is the literal word of God, Discuss?

Originally posted by Lastday Prophet
After all, before the Bible was written, God spoke to men by his spirit.

This clearly doesn't happen. Unless you are saying that the bible and faith in jesus are irrelvant. Because there hasn't ever been found anything like it. I could understand if some eskimos had their own independant copies of the bible or anything like that, but they clearly don't. And still, even if this did occur, there are obviously places where the people have never even heard of these things. Unless you are saying it happens to every person and every one of them rejects it, it doesn't make sense.

What I said was that in a remote place, God could speak to a member of a tribe let's say, He could tell that member and other members what is necessary in order to inherit the Kingdom Of God. All that the Bible teaches comes down to a very basic statement, Love the Lord with all your heart mind and spirit, Love your neighbor as yourself, Realize and accept the fact that Jesus died for your sins that you might have a right to the tree of life. Without a Bible, these simple truths if applied, will get you into heaven.

Sometimes we get caught up in the sin thing, and yes we are to live a Holy and pure life and we will be held accountable for the life we live according to what God has revealed to us individually, but if we stop for a moment to ponder "Grace". Grace was given to the thief on the cross, he was a theif all his life and even to his last hour he was a theif, never was baptised, never went to church, never lived Godly. But God showing his great love and compassion for man allowed him repentance at his final moments.

God still speaks to Holy Men Today.

God can reveal whatever he desires to reveal to anyone he desires to reveal it to. So he can go to the remotest part of the earth and explain his plan of salvation to anyone he choose's to.

Originally posted by Lastday Prophet
God has revealed to me that in those cases he would speak to one or more of the inhabitants by his spirit, ( the same way he speaks now to those how truly know him ) and he would give them the same message of salvation to teach to the others. To those that reject it, it is the same as rejecting the written word. After all, before the Bible was written, God spoke to men by his spirit.

If I am reading this right, then you are saying:

1. The Bible is not necessary for salvation

2. God revealed this to you directly

Am I correct?

Originally posted by Nygdan
the bible even contradicts itself at times.

Even tho the OT and the Gospel accounts contradict one another?

Give me some instances.

I'm still looking at all the info for question 1

For ques 2 Alot of people don't realize that the sacrifice of Christ for forgiveness was a settled issue for God before He even made the the world. It is proclaimed in the OT as well as the NT. So though the name christianity didn't have that name until 2000 yrs ago it's theme has been around since the fall of man and before.

Ques 3 satan is in the business of deceiving and unfortunately people listen to him. All the things that have been done in the name of the christian faith are not from God. They have been mans idea.

Ques 4 That's a hard one. I don't believe all the christian denominations are telling the truth of the Gospel. But salvation is a must before death. I don't know what you are in the hospital for but it could be that God has sent some of the people you are encountering.

Majic, the bible is God's written word. Just like he spoke to the writers of the bible what to write, he can speak to others and tell them what he expects and they in turn explain his message to others. God supercedes the bible and Jesus is "The Living Word" that dwells within us and directs our paths and reveals to us God's plan for our lives, "IF" we allow him to.

If a person has the spirit of God dwelling within them they can make it to heaven if they follow the leading of the spirit. Jesus said that "The Spirit Shall Guide Us Unto All Truths" This "Spirit" is the Holy Spirit or comforter Jesus said he would send. This truth I illustrated earlier with the example of the thief on the cross.

Originally posted by Lastday Prophet
God supercedes the bible and Jesus is "The Living Word" that dwells within us and directs our paths and reveals to us God's plan for our lives, "IF" we allow him to.

What God tells us cannot contradict with what He has revealed in His word(the Bible).

Greetings to Lastday Prophet, dbrandt and all members of the ATS Christian Contingent from a former Christian. This is somewhat off-topic and perhaps a bit self-indulgent, but I am coming more and more to feel that it�s important to set the right tone for discussion of topics like this if I can.

At least, I want you to know where I�m coming from and why, and hopefully thereby aid in reducing the circularity of some of our exchanges. This may be impossible, but I think it�s worth a shot.

I�m Not Anti-Christian

There are many aspects of classic and modern Christian dogma, as found among the multivarious sects, that I wholeheartedly disagree with. In disagreeing with them, I will often adopt a somewhat clinical tone (or worse, an emotional one), and may come off as flaming Christianity and/or Christians in general as a consequence. Where I give such an impression, I am in error.

The truth is that I�m not anti-Christian at all. Rather, if you read what I have to say, you�ll find that my harshest criticisms are reserved for the phenomena of arrogance and vanity posing as �faith�. Another way of describing this mindset can be found in the phrase �if you disagree with me, you disagree with God (or God�s word)�.

This point of view, though by no means universal, is nonetheless rampant among Christians here and everywhere, and it is utterly wrong -- in my opinion. Examples abound in this forum.

Such behavior has nothing to do with God, but with self-deception and the deceit of others. It is sinful, and to attempt to gloss over or deny it is also sinful.

Sin is the turning away from truth. Where I see it, I often feel compelled to point it out. Where I am guilty of it, I am hopeful that someone else may point out my error, and that I will have the good sense to recognize it when someone does.

When I point out such errors, it is not in condemnation of the sinner, but of the sin. Again, where I fail to make the distinction clear, it is as a result of a failure on my part.

A Modest Proposal: An Appeal For Reason

Having said that, it is meaningful for me to challenge your beliefs when I think they may be in error, and for you to do likewise. However, such challenges are pointless unless they can be considered in a consistent and coherent intellectual environment.

For discussion of any topic, I consider Reason to be the best foundation. We need not launch into abstracts of classical philosophy or high-order mathematics to apply Reason. An agreement on basic terms should be enough, with more detailed agreements available where they are needed.

For example: If an idea is logically consistent within itself and its context, then it may be considered �true� within that context. If it is logically inconsistent within itself or its context, then it may be considered �false� within that context.

If we cannot agree on these things, then we will be unable to agree on anything, rendering discussion irrelevant. I have found that the answer to the following question cannot be assumed on the part of all contributors to these forums, important as it may be.

Thus I will ask what may seem to be either an obvious or leading question, but it�s really an important one:

Is Reason acceptable to you as a foundation for discussion within this forum?

If you answer only one question I pose to you, let it be this one. Please consider it carefully.



[edit on 10/29/2004 by Majic]

I think its a good idea to ask this question because after a while it comes down to what you are prepared to believe.

I understand exactly what your saying magic. I am not anti Christian either...though I have gotten accused of it here. What I am is anti being told I am evil, I am going to hell, that I "stick up" for evilness (homosexuality) that I am wrong...that there is only one true faith ..."that's" what I am against. I am against showing people the truth and them staying in the dark....you can prove to people that parts of the bible has been changed by man...and they just don't see it. It' not that "I" have changed it, wanted to change it, or had anything to do with changing it....it happened and then when you tell certain people, they get POed. If you tell some people to study and learn for themselves...they won't...

Originally posted by Majic

Is Reason acceptable to you as a foundation for discussion within this forum?


[edit on 10/29/2004 by Majic]

As long as I can continue to believe Isaiah 55:8-9 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,"says the LORD.
"For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts."

and 1 Corinthians 1:25
Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

Yes, the strangest thing is for literal Bible believers, is that it all depends upon who is taking it literally and what they want you to believe.

Is that not the same thing as interpretation anyway? The only twist is the extremes you have to go through, to accept everything literally including the selective contradictions in terms.

Yes, you can believe the Bible is the word of God, entirely inspired. But believing things totally literally, depends upon the reader, the time, the place, the sermon and what one wants to prove. Every parable has its allegory.

Well.......it's like my in-laws every word in the bible is real, true and literal IT says "7" days to create the world blaa, blaa, blaa....but then there is another part somewhere in the bible that say something about "a thousand years is but a day to god" or something to that effect, so it world stand to reason the it took like, 7 thousand years if your gonna go by the bible......but NnnOOOooo....7 days

It seems that the bible can be applied how you like, in Job (I think, though I m sure you will correct me if I am wrong:up where it mentions that you cant be gay, it says you shouldnt eat shellfish... well how are you going to live, true to the very word of the bible, or true to its interpretation. SO how can the bible be the literal word of God, it as after all written by man for God, isnt it a sin to think that man can possibly encapsulate the Lords teachings in one book?

Just a few thoughts to stimulate discussion....

Originally posted by bigdanprice
It seems that the bible can be applied how you like, in Job (I think, though I m sure you will correct me if I am wrong:up

where it mentions that you cant be gay, , it as after all written by man for God, isnt it a sin to think that man can possibly encapsulate the Lords teachings in one book?

Just a few thoughts to stimulate discussion....

Both OT and NT tell us homosexuality is a sin and out of God's will and the Bible was written by God for man, not the other way around.

Where is your evidence... Of God writing the bible for man

Clarification

[edit on 30-10-2004 by bigdanprice]

Originally posted by dbrandt

Originally posted by Majic
Is Reason acceptable to you as a foundation for discussion within this forum?

As long as I can continue to believe Isaiah 55:8-9

Accepting Reason as a foundation for discussion of topics does not require you to change or abandon any of your beliefs.

I'm just looking for some common ground that we can use to promote constructive discussion.

To be clear on my proposal, I'm recommending that we start off with a basic concept: internal consistency as a test of Reason. For that, I propose that concepts and their sources need only pass a test of internal consistency to be considered reasonable:

"If an idea is logically consistent within itself and its context, then it may be considered �true� within that context. If it is logically inconsistent within itself or its context, then it may be considered �false� within that context."

In other words, it's not "Science versus Christianity" or "Evolution versus the Bible", but "Science versus Science" or "the Bible versus itself".

There are very, very few (if any) systems of belief which are entirely consistent within themselves, so a lack of internal consistency is not necessarily a sign that a system of belief is false.

Rather -- and this is really what I'm getting at -- if a system of beliefs is inconsistent with itself, those inconsistencies are a reasonable focus for intellectual inquiry and topical discussion.

Originally posted by Majic
Rather -- and this is really what I'm getting at -- if a system of beliefs is inconsistent with itself, those inconsistencies are a reasonable focus for intellectual inquiry and topical discussion.

I kinda think I've been doing that. Amadeus keeps bringing up the inconsistencies in the Bible and I keep answering them. I guess keep posting stuff and if I know the answer right off the top of my head I'll answer it. But inconsistencies can be looked up on the internet too and find the answers.

the bible is about hope, and that that hope will someday come around and offer the choice of salvation, while people sit around with there hands in there pockets kickin change. you get what you put out in life, nothing more, nothing less.

Ya know what...If it gets you threw your day....good on it.

If you think Mr Non-Sinner died for your sins and it makes ya feel good....good.
If ya think there is a big old man up in the clouds that's going to cuddle ya when ya die....good.
If ya think for some reason, you'll never go to hell, cause you confess....good.
If you read a book and think it's fact for some reason.... good.
If however, you look at all those things, and don't ask why....

Bad.

-DT