The mentally ill.

I chose to put this in Social Issues and Civil unrest because it hurts my heart that so many conversations about the Connecticut tragedy are being politicized.

We are having conversations and debates about gun rights, regulations and controls. We are discussing conspiracy theories. There is even thread to ban the mentally ill and lock them up in farms.

All of these things have been good emotional vents for people and I know people need to do these things to deal with the tragedy, sadness and despair.

I have my own philosophy to life and it generally does not include more and more laws, regulations and incarcerations. Then I had an idea that is...in general...not my typical thought path.

We are seeing petitions being used for many different things...from states seceding from the Union to plans for a death star to gun control. I had another idea.

Why not, instead of making new gun controls, we get a petition to give free mental health screenings and freed treatment? You go, you get screened. If you are fine and dandy, you get to get your guns. If you are not totally sound, you get free treatment for your personal disorder. Everything from regular mental health professional visits to your medication. This, to me, makes much more sense.

If we control guns, then yes...there will be less gun crimes. But there is still going to be crimes of violence due to mental instability. Doesn't it make more sense to try and regulate the underlying problem than to diagnose a symptom? Gun violence is just one symptom of violence...but the real issue behind violence is...well...a lot of people are not mentally stable. If I ever in my life saw a place for a public health plan...this would be it.

Your mental health professional (or a panel), after diagnosing your condition, could then decide if you are capable, stable and competent to own a firearm. They could also, at that time...prescribe the necessary treatments and medications...

It's just a thought. I would prefer we diagnose the sick rather than attack our Constitution and create laws that inevitably effect the perfectly sane and law abiding citizen...that is not fair to them.

Just my opinion.

Agreed.

We cannot control every possible outcome.

It is my honest opinion that 'civilized' society is mentally ill by design.

The one off examples of tragedy are anomalies and casualties of the control system.

We need more healthy discussion and healthy perspectives which are not motivated by controlling others.

Will freedom comes responsibility and America, specifically, has ignored the back half of that equation for far too long now.

Churches, schools and government are not acceptable alternatives to the individual responsibility, we are each accountable for within the eco-system in which we all reside.

Sadly the US has an almost non-existent mental health system for the poor. One does exist, but participation in it requires months of waiting just to be seen. Once in the door, don't expect any real testing or to see an actual doctor. You'll likely see a nurse practitioner and that is it. If you don't have a diagnosis already, you'll likely get an incorrect one.

A summary of the local system here, in a nutshell.

1) Call for an appointment. Wait 90-180 days for the first visit.
2) The first visit is a ten minute screening. Only a few questions are directed at the actual issue. The rest are asking about income, if you have bank accounts, property, cars, assets.
3) If you are approved - ten minutes, every 90 days with a "prescribing doctor". A nurse practitioner who calls in prescriptions.
4) You have to be "re-approved" ( Go through the financials again ) after 30 days of treatment. Then, again, at the 90 day mark. Then every 90 days for the first year. Then every 180 days thereafter. Miss a single "re-approval" appointment - for any reason, and you are removed from the system and sent back to step one.

Currently that is it. That is the whole program.

This clinic used to have several doctors, group and individual therapy, a woman who worked with the "patient assistance programs" on behalf of the clients to help them get free or low cost medication. All those things are now gone. Under President Obama the budget has been gutted down to nearly nothing.

The painful truth is that most politicians feel we already have a thriving and active mental healthcare system. It's called prison.

~Heff

Originally posted by Jeremiah65


Why not, instead of making new gun controls, we get a petition to give free mental health screenings and freed treatment? You go, you get screened. If you are fine and dandy, you get to get your guns. If you are not totally sound, you get free treatment for your personal disorder. Everything from regular mental health professional visits to your medication. This, to me, makes much more sense.


Your mental health professional (or a panel), after diagnosing your condition, could then decide if you are capable, stable and competent to own a firearm.

It's just a thought. I would prefer we diagnose the sick as to attack our Constitution and create laws that inevitably effect the perfectly sane and law abiding citizen...that is not fair to them.

Just my opinion.

edit on 12/15/2012 by Jeremiah65 because: (no reason given)

So many, many things wrong with this post.......

1. Most people who kill with guns are perfectly sane.

2. If you want to kill someone, you aren't going to have a problem with getting a gun illegally

3. What makes you think mental health professionals can properly determine if someone is violent? Look at all the bad cops at there - they all had some type of background check and assessment.

4. By having mental health professionals "approve" gun ownership, you basically allow the government to have any type of restriction on gun control they want to have without passing laws. All they would have to get is a few University level shrinks to issue guidelines in assessing gun ownership. To avoid getting their license pulled, all shrinks would have to follow this standard.

Originally posted by Jeremiah65


There is even thread to ban the mentally ill and lock them up in farms

Where is the thread that you stated above?

I really think that all schools (everywhere) should have armed guards at every entrance and exit; and that going in and coming out of the schools; back packs etc. should be looked at and ID's checked.

reply to post by caladonea


I think the OP is referring to my thread: Time to ban the mentally ill.

Originally posted by caladonea

Originally posted by Jeremiah65


There is even thread to ban the mentally ill and lock them up in farms

Where is the thread that you stated above?

I really think that all schools (everywhere) should have armed guards at every entrance and exit; and that going in and coming out of the schools; back packs etc. should be looked at and ID's checked.

I never thought I would agree with that statement.

It has gotten to that point.

Everybody that visits must wear a hard card.

This is a very sad day for our children...

Originally posted by caladonea

Originally posted by Jeremiah65


There is even thread to ban the mentally ill and lock them up in farms

Where is the thread that you stated above?

I really think that all schools (everywhere) should have armed guards at every entrance and exit; and that going in and coming out of the schools; back packs etc. should be looked at and ID's checked.

Now you know that won't work unless the children are frisked . Of course someone is going to evade the metal detectors, so they will have to be looked at naked every day.

Don't worry about your 12 year old girl's tampon or private note being looked at by some armed guard.

Now once we secured schools, these killers are going to move to shopping centers and grocery stores. Those will have to be secured too.

To prevent someone from shooting at cars or schools buses, let's stop all cars and search them. How else are you going to keep school buses safe?

Let's not forget how many parents kill their children every year. We wouldn't be keeping kids safe without installing camera in their home and assessing their parents for pre-crime.

reply to post by Hefficide


Don't expect it to get better either.....

Check out some of things in DSM5 approved by the APA.....

1) Disruptive Mood Dysregulation Disorder: DSM 5 will turn temper tantrums into a mental disorder- a puzzling decision based on the work of only one research group.

2) Normal grief will become Major Depressive Disorder, thus medicalizing and trivializing our expectable and necessary emotional reactions to the loss of a loved one and substituting pills and superficial medical rituals for the deep consolations of family, friends, religion, and the resiliency that comes with time and the acceptance of the limitations of life.

3) The everyday forgetting characteristic of old age will now be misdiagnosed as Minor Neurocognitive Disorder, creating a huge false positive population of people who are not at special risk for dementia.

There are more and here is the link to read this interesting article! Source

Seems fitting to say that it appears we are all mental patients and planet Earth has become the Asylum....

Originally posted by Hefficide
The painful truth is that most politicians feel we already have a thriving and active mental healthcare system. It's called prison.
~Heff

Unfortunately it isn't just the Politicians who believe this.

Also, don't forget the Parks, Street Corners and beneath the Overpasses that also serve as Mental Health Hospitals.

reply to post by Daughter2


Ok...you've stated your sarcasm.

What are your solutions?

Originally posted by Hefficide

Sadly the US has an almost non-existent mental health system for the poor. One does exist, but participation in it requires months of waiting just to be seen.

We like to keep our mentally ill people homeless and living in the streets where we can keep an eye on them.

reply to post by seeker1963


It's bureaucracy that's caused that, IMO.

For one to qualify for SSI or SSD benefits, it is necessary for them to have a valid diagnosis that can be recognized and defined by the courts.

Obviously not every person who might have symptoms of the things you list would qualify as disabled. But there are folks who end up with rather minor diagnoses, but who have major life disruptions or health issues from them. Depression is a good example of this. Not all depressed people even know they are depressed. The vast majority of people with depression can function - but a small percentage are so profoundly ill that they cannot.

In short, the laws that govern how people get help end up leaking their red tape over into the mental health field itself. Rather than the court simply bending and looking at people on an individual basis - they prefer to have predetermined labels and categorizations to rubber stamp on their paperwork.

~Heff

Originally posted by Jeremiah65
Your mental health professional (or a panel), after diagnosing your condition, could then decide if you are capable, stable and competent to own a firearm.

Couple of issues to sort out.
1. Lots of mental illnesses get worse over time.
So you get the all clear this year and get guns. Two years later your condition is much much worse because of various life issues.
2 Lots of mental illnesses change from time to time.
Bad yesterday, feeling ok today while having the clearance. next week you're all crazy again.
3. Lots of people are perfectly all right until one day they "just snap". The "going postal" scenario.

reply to post by Hefficide


Agreed Heff! It is just the nefarious ways that these labels could be used against us in the future that is my concern....

Anyone who wants to purchase a new gun legally after a full, complete background check, should be required to submit to a full psychiatric evaluation. A card is issued similar to a licence if the person passes the evaluation, and from then on that gun owner must submit to a re-evaluation every 2 years, or lose their right to LEGALLY own guns.

Anyone who owns guns now must also comply with the above or lose their right to LEGALLY own guns.

All costs are the responsibility of the person seeking to own guns or the gun owners. All LEGAL gun owners should be held legally responsible and liable for the security and safety of their firearms and ammunition.

Wont make a difference now, but into the future it could.

This is the proper approach to gun control.

I think in addition to more and kinder help, we also need to make it more socially acceptable to have the label of mentally ill, so that people are more comfortable seeking help, and this does not keep being some families dirty little secret.

Denial is very much to blame with these shootings, all of them. There would not be such denial if it weren't so "bad" to be crazy.

reply to post by ausername


The problem with that is the same problem I posted about SSI and SSD above - the tendency of bureaucracy to want "rubber stamp" guidelines.

In my case, I have a seven line psychiatric diagnoses. On paper that looks pretty bad. But, in reality, I'm not nearly as bad as the paper makes me seem. I don't discuss whether or not I own guns online (anymore) due to the understanding that not only does the government data mine ( they are aware of any weapons I may or may not own already ) but private individuals also can use this knowledge as a tool to target potential victims - for anything from advertising to deciding what houses to rob for specific items.

Mental illness is a highly individual experience. Some people handle a diagnosis better than others. Some people take their meds religiously, others seem to always "fall off of the wagon". Some have history with self-medicating where others don't. There are a LOT of variables that don't lend well to the idea of simply having a "You must be ~this~ sane to ride the Second Amendment!" sign.

~Heff

reply to post by Hefficide


Also, there are plenty of things that severely impact lives that are brushed off by "health professionals". I have some kind of condition, generally referred to as visual snow. CT scan showed up normal, so I am thought of as making stuff up, or being hypocondriatic by my doctor. Doesn't change the fact that it affects my day to day living a lot, I hate to drive now, especially at night. Every oncoming car literally blinds me for a second or two. No one knows what causes it, and no magic pill found to improve it, so it is generally ignored and brushed off.

Don't even get me started on the drugs they are pushing though lol. I have been on quite a few that made me worse, am on effexor now, doesn't seem to help a whole lot, but at least it is not making me homocidal/suicidal yet like some of the others

reply to post by Hefficide

Sadly the US has an almost non-existent mental health system for the poor. One does exist, but participation in it requires months of waiting just to be seen. Once in the door, don't expect any real testing or to see an actual doctor. You'll likely see a nurse practitioner and that is it. If you don't have a diagnosis already, you'll likely get an incorrect one.

I worked in the non-profit, no-fees mental health profession for years. There was no "months of waiting". We handled every call within 24 hours, made appointments, did thorough "intake interviews", and ordered doctors right away.

I don't know about other cities, but in this city a person has access to free care at any hour of the day, every day.
I realize you said "locally", and I don't know where you are.....
but I assure you that in any major city there is a network of "free access" clinics to address crises.