Time to ban the mentally ill

reply to post by kingofmd

It's time to start locking them in the padded rooms again. If you need mind altering drugs to keep you from harming yourself or others, I'm sorry, but yo need to be removed for the good of society.

The ignorance regarding mental health on this thread is unreal, I am not picking on you, it’s just that this post is the embodiment of what I am talking about.

Do you have any idea how counterproductive locking them all up would be, by your logic you would be locking up at a maximum 1 in 4 people, that is how many people will have an episode of mental ill health at some point in their lives. This stigma of “lock ‘em up” does nothing to negate the problem that mental health causes it only adds to the problems. Indeed it is very likely that you know people who are on medication for a mental health condition and you don’t know about it, they will never harm another sole and they will live like another law abiding citizen.

Taking away the rights of up to 25% of the population to defend the rights of the rest is wrong, I think all guns should be banned in a ideal society but just targeting the mentally ill is not the way.

I don't think the OP is talking about your everyday kid suffering from ADHD, but those with anti social behavioral disorder like my brother. There are so many who suffer from something similar or equivalent to and it destroys families. I kno this is extreme, but if I got into a physical fight with my brother I would have to kill him because of his devient personality. He has beaten my dad, he is tormenting and abusing the family he lives with, he has killed animals, he has abused any in his path, and this has all been evident since 1 year old. He is a felon, and currently carries an illegal firearm. He actually discharged this firearm while driving down the street around a year ago. Me and my mother are afraid for our lives, because if he was to ever move in with one of us he would force us to become prisoners in our own homes. He has done this before with both my mom and dad, and I refuse to be victim. For instance right before my dad died from brain cancer my brother was stealing money out of one of those electronic money banks that count money. My dad called him out on it, and my brother actually believed he was being accused, when he had actually done it. This guy has serious mental disorders, and it is only a matter of time before he kills someone if he hasn't already. He would kill someone over 5 bucks, and I have seen it almost happe. In front of people he can seem like a well mannered young man, but behind the mind he is a ticking time bomb. I know many felons who have guns and I sure want to be able to protect myself from them. To be honest, these guys are so creepy, I don't even think they'd even want to use a gun, but a scalpal and other grusome instruments for inflicting death upon their victims.

reply to post by thisguyrighthere


We have exactly the same situation here in the UK.

The previous two governments, both 'colours' of political parties, each sold off more and more of our country's mental hospitals and facilities, for huge profits.

The hospitals were then bulldozed and private and gated upper middle class housing estates were built on the often extensive grounds, and again, massive profits were made.

Meanwhile, innocent people were standing around waiting for a train and getting stabbed through the eye, into their brains and murdered by mentally deranged people who were previously locked up securely, made to take their medicines and were generally looked after.

When the hospitals were sold off, these people had to be put somewhere...and that somewhere was right in the midst of everyone else.

They called in 'Care in the Community'...i call it dispair in the community.

reply to post by unityemissions


Isnt it obvious?

You can see how their imaginations run wild to fill in gaps where they perceive them, to personalize a statement by attaching to their own lifes experiences and then try to match it to their own ideals.

It's in every response containing "Hitler", "exterminate", "eugenics", conjuring visions of turn of the century torture houses run by sadists, and in every response taking immediate offense and resulting in a knee-jerk threat or wishing of harm.

In all these pages there are maybe 4 posts that actually step back and look at the problem without giving into the sensational bent of the OP. Which was by the way simply a mimicry of the emotionally loaded threads devoid of logic calling for gun bans.

My favorite part of this is at the beginning of the threads life another poster began a thread similar in scope without the inflammatory title of this one and that thread too quickly filled with the same claims of hate, intolerance and eugenics despite obvious efforts to maintain an even tone and an open discussion.

There are a lot of problems with how mentally ill people are treated and perceived regardless of severity and included in that long list of problems are those who essentially refuse to do anything because at one time it was done poorly.

It really is no wonder nothing substantial or truly helpful is ever done when you look through the thread and see how most are reacting. How could anything be accomplished when the mere suggestion of a problem is met with such venom?

reply to post by unityemissions


I will agree with social engineers. There are forces behind the goings on in this country that none of us see. There are behind the scenes negotiations and back room deals, there are even general consensus taken from people we don't know concerning what happens to us all. This shooting was not the result of social engineers however it was the result of societal failings. Parents of mentally ill children need help. I think Adam Lanzas mother was in denial about her son. She may not have realized there were treatments, facilities and health options that might have helped her and her son. She was lucky enough to be able to afford these options. There are many many parents without the health care plans to get the help they need. The damaged child is "let lose" with HOPES they will be fine and not harm themselves or anyone else. This pipe dream is becoming less and less of a reality and these kids need to be placed where they can be helped and not "set free" like roaming time bombs.

Check this out...



“I Am Adam Lanza’s Mother”: When Parents Are Afraid of Their Children

Long describes the love she has for her 13-year-old son, a brilliant boy who loves Harry Potter and has a “snuggle animal collection.”

But according to her, this same child has also threatened her with a knife so many times that she keeps a Tupperware container for the days she has to collect all the sharp objects in the house.

Nothing really helps she says: the powerful meds, the intermittent hospitalizations, or what she calls a “Russian novel of behavioral plans.”

She says she’s trained her other children to lock themselves away for their own safety when their brother falls into one of his unpredictable rages.

Originally posted by MysterX
reply to post by thisguyrighthere

 

We have exactly the same situation here in the UK.

The previous two governments, both 'colours' of political parties, each sold off more and more of our country's mental hospitals and facilities, for huge profits.

The hospitals were then bulldozed and private and gated upper middle class housing estates were built on the often extensive grounds, and again, massive profits were made.

Meanwhile, innocent people were standing around waiting for a train and getting stabbed through the eye, into their brains and murdered by mentally deranged people who were previously locked up securely, made to take their medicines and were generally looked after.

When the hospitals were sold off, these people had to be put somewhere...and that somewhere was right in the midst of everyone else.

They called in 'Care in the Community'...i call it dispair in the community.

I've probably more experience of this than you have. I lived in one of those 'facilities' for the best part of 2 years (and yes, it's now converted into private flats). It wasn't the 'solution' that most people seem to think it was. Better than wards, certainly, but still pretty grim.

Care in the community isn't necessarily the problem. The problem is when services provided by social services &c dry up. At the moment, mental health is practically being rationed due to the Coalition cuts. Unless someone is acute and in crisis, there's very limited health available and what is available is short-term, even if the mental health issue is life-long, recurring and so on. Many health care trusts are passing on service users to charities, even though it's likely that around 1 in 5 charities will close in the next couple of years due to cuts from the governments, slow down in donations, and their being shut out of tendering systems for paid work by large commercial companies.

Because of our capitalistic system (no safeguards for the rich) and the republicans do not want to see the rich get taxed) there is a mass - feeling with in the public eye, I think of the mentally ill are being pushed out in the streets with very little coming down from the rich to help them. Because the capitalistic system being too monetary - top heavy, the seams are bursting and what gives are problems like this. There will be more caring for the mentally ill when congress wakes up and realizes there has to be more SAFEGUARDS and PROTECTION so the rich will not accumulate SO MUCH WEALTH and not give it to organizations that really need it.

It is a MAJOR flaw in our society and it is a CLEAR example of why our capitalistic systems needs a complete make over when it comes to the rich receiving WAY to much money !

You can knock what I am saying till kingdom comes but it really is the TRUTH !

Couple of things; If we, in theory could lock up all mentally ill people
and isolate them from the healthy ones, it still wouldn't eliminate all of
the causes of mental disorders.

So, even when there would be no mentally ill persons around anymore, new
ones would appear on somewhat regular intervals when some of
the previously healthy ones would fall ill. So removing all the ill ones at
once in any given moment, would not guarantee your safety.
Therefore, wouldn't it be more logical to actually identify the reasons
behind mental disorders and eliminate, or at least minimize them, in order
to prevent or alleviate the possibilities of people getting ill?

Secondly; Mentally ill people have no one else than you, the healthy ones to
take care of us... Now with an attitude like some of you "healthy ones"
seem to have, you know, the "lets ban them all" attitude, you REALLY need
to spend some quality time in front of a mirror and ask your self what went
wrong. Especially when tragedies such as the ones mentioned earlier in this
thread take place.

I personally suffer from social anxiety. I am a so called loner, an
isolated individual with severe personality disorder and yes, i have been
diagnosed. Oddly, i am not violent, nor do i have tendencies towards
criminal activities..

Not all mental disorders lead into criminal behavior and suggesting, even remotely, that
millions of mentally ill people are most likely to become killers, rapists,
sadists and murderers or criminals in general and should be banned is, to
say at least, worrisome and makes me to question the morality of people
standing behind such opinions.

Kudos for all of you, who have actually chosen to stand by us, the ill and
odd ones. Thank you for that!

Originally posted by Dispo
Please clarify, are you advocating eugenics?

Edit: I can't tell if this post is satire or not, if it is, add some smileys or something. If not, guaranteedreplies.jpg

edit on 15-12-2012 by Dispo because: (no reason given)

What's the problem with Eugenics? We see the problems that develop without Eugenics or any recognition of responsible natural selection... and they are significant.

These unhealthy nuts and morons are coming from somewhere.

reply to post by newcovenant


From the quote you provide, it's obvious that standard health treatment wouldn't help this child. You seem to have difficulties making the connections I have attempted to transmit. All good.

Originally posted by thisguyrighthere
It's also irrational to place blame on an inanimate object such as a knife, car or a gun.

It is irrational to not acknowledge that the tool effects the outcome?

Geez...if a knife is capable of killing just as effectively and the same numbers of people as a gun...IT'S A MIRACLE THAT THE GUN INDUSTRY HAS PULLED OFF SUCH A SCAM CONVINCING PEOPLE OTHERWISE FOR THE PAST 300 years.

Are you suggesting we arm all of the mentally ill with AK-47's and hand grenades? No difference than a stick?

Or that Adam Lanza would have killed the same number of children if he was armed only with a stick?

There is a spectrum and access to weapons plays a significant part...and to claim otherwise is utterly "iirational".

What is the value of a gun? vs. stick? Knife?

Should we examine mental illness and how we treat it? YES...the medications that Lanza and other shooters were on? YES..But to claim that weapons have no impact on outcome? DUMB.

sighs heavily

Maybe it is time to look, not at the mentally ill, but at the medications that they were taking at the time that suicidal and homocidal thoughts began or were acted upon.

Tired of Control Freaks

Originally posted by TiredofControlFreaks
sighs heavily

Maybe it is time to look, not at the mentally ill, but at the medications that they were taking at the time that suicidal and homocidal thoughts began or were acted upon.

Tired of Control Freaks

It's all inclusive. Jamming pills down there throats is part of the complete "not dealing with it" package.

The pills are the easy way out. Not much has changed from the turn of the century asylums in that respect. Instead of being physically restrained and locked into rooms they're pharmacologically numbed and locked inside their own heads.

The common side-effects of violent outbursts and suicidal thoughts is some divine punishment for not really treating and caring for them.

reply to post by Brown Bear


Nothing is wrong with Eugenics, in theory. It's the practice which has gotten a bad wrap from history.

Hopefully future Eugenics won't require the extermination of people, rather genetic manipulation, and nutrigenomics to improve our herd without any suffering.

reply to post by Indigo5


The real irrationality right now is that society is focussing heavily ON the tool right now, rather than to focus on the mental state of the killer.

Not all mentally ill humans are killers, but for sure, the guy that slaughters innocent people is certainly not sane.

Removing the tools will not and never hinder a murderer. A gun, poison, knife, stick or even a chicken bone down a throat are only tools of murder. It is the murderer that society needs to figure out, so that murder can be eradicated one day.

Sadly, something that is NOT focus upon today, with the emotionally driven populace and sympathy card waving anti-gun lobby whom had been UNCONSCIOUNABLY making use of the victims to push their agendas.

reply to post by thisguyrighthere


Not too mention almost every single terrorist caught in FBI plots has been mentally ill. They target these individuals as they are the most likely to be influenced by those of a criminal mind who are not mentally ill but use these mentally ill people to carry out some agenda. Its not hard to trick a mentally ill person and get them to do your will. Many have no rational anchor in this world.

I agree, its time to really focus in on the cause of these problems. However, we should do so with love and compassion. These mentally ill are no doubt products of a world which they do not comprehend, and lack mental capacity to understand wrongness of their actions in many regards. They should be helped in the best way possible to live a full rewarding life. A society can be judged on how they treat their weakest members of that society. We should have no problem if we really wanted to get these people into homes, supervised, and cared for in a compassionate way. With this we will have less need for protection services which have increasingly infringed on the rights of those without mental illness. We used to have a very robust mental health system, and I believe in the 80's it was abolished placing tons of mentally ill patients into our streets.

While it is true that there are some degrees of mental illness that can be controlled with medication, we must have a national dialogue about how to ensure safety of people from mental illnesses that have been known to produce violent and extreme behaviors detrimental to our safety.

I get what the OP was trying to do. It wasn't the best execution in my opinion, but I get the point. Getting rid of guns may lower their access to the weapon but, it's not going to stop violent outbursts. I do agree something must done about the mental health system. The problem is, what is the standard required for locking someone up? I don't think it's wrong to deny someone their freedom if they are a danger to society but they must be treated. I would say this should only be reserved for people who are severely ill and have threatened others though. The problem is no one is going to want to pay for that.

As for me being insensitive-No, I have OCD. I am not insensitive to mental illness at all as I have one. My obsession isn't cleaning related (and most people actually don't have the cleaning obsession). It generally revolves around inappropriate sexual thoughts, violence, cheating on my husband or my weight. I don't have any overt compulsions, it's all mental. The problem with locking up people like me is there are at last 3 million of us in the U.S. and perhaps even as many as 6 million. The logistics involved in locking up a population the size of L.A. would be pretty staggering. Truthfully speaking, the only person I'm a danger to is myself. It is what it is though. Can't really do much about having a busted brain, I just live with it.

Originally posted by MysterX
reply to post by thisguyrighthere

 

We have exactly the same situation here in the UK.

The previous two governments, both 'colours' of political parties, each sold off more and more of our country's mental hospitals and facilities, for huge profits.

The hospitals were then bulldozed and private and gated upper middle class housing estates were built on the often extensive grounds, and again, massive profits were made.

Meanwhile, innocent people were standing around waiting for a train and getting stabbed through the eye, into their brains and murdered by mentally deranged people who were previously locked up securely, made to take their medicines and were generally looked after.

When the hospitals were sold off, these people had to be put somewhere...and that somewhere was right in the midst of everyone else.

They called in 'Care in the Community'...i call it dispair in the community.

That may all be true.
Now imagine those people armed to the teeth with assault rifles and the like.
Sometimes is good to be British...

reply to post by SeekerofTruth101


Lord help me....stuck between idiot factions. Bottom line it!

Guns sell for a reason! Cuz they allow you to kill with greater ease and potentially in greater numbers than a knife or stick.

Start denying that to support the NRA and you should just trade in your brain for a bumper sticker.

That said...YES...people pull the trigger and WHY is a good place to start looking at the problem.

My issue is with both the NRA and the anti-gun lobby.

One is so frothing at the mouth..."YAY GUNS" that they make stupid arguments that 20 kids could be killed in less than 4 minutes with a "chicken bone".

The other drives the debate toward guns so quickly that people don't ask the question of WTF went wrong with this kid in the first place.

We need to BOTH figure out what went wrong ...and continues to go wrong...with these wacko's...while at the SAME TIME taking steps to make sure they don't have TOOLS easily accessable to kill dozens of inncent people when things do go wrong!

For effs sake....we can talk about BOTH topics...AND BTW...that is what MOST Americans want to do, figure out what went wrong with Adam Lanza and see if we can't work to make that happen less often AND to make sure when things go wrong, that individual isn't sitting beside a small arsenol.

Originally posted by unityemissions
reply to post by Brown Bear

 

Nothing is wrong with Eugenics, in theory. It's the practice which has gotten a bad wrap from history.

Hopefully future Eugenics won't require the extermination of people, rather genetic manipulation, and nutrigenomics to improve our herd without any suffering.

Extermination has nothing to do with the idea that people need to take responsibility for human development, thus, the real issue is enforced sterilization of those whose reproduction is detrimental to the long term social good.

Looking at the Unwashed Masses can anybody realistically argue that every person has the right to reproduce? Should violent criminals produce six more like themselves? How about the mentally and emotionally incompetent? How many more nuts from the stupid tree does society need?

Life is a gift from a generous God, and no one needs or deserves to be killed, but the science of Genetics can weed out many of the problems that have come to plague society and make a happier future where Souls arrive into healthy Vessels.

The crack and drug babies are coming of age and the streets are filled with the lowest forms of Morons set to reproduce like rabbits. Humanity is aimed to the lowest common denominator... producing too many servants and too much cannon fodder for future conflicts.