Are we trying to figure this out ATS?

reply to post by Kali74

Care to comment on my other post as well?

www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by Quadrivium


Why? My reply would be similar to my previous post.

If you wanted to talk about more common crimes your argument would be more than valid. But mass murder? No.

We have a for-profit only healthcare system which means a lot of people will not get the mental healthcare they need.

reply to post by Quadrivium


Do you really believe this nonsense?

People do not become mass murderers because they "didn't have rules" growing up.

Here's some interesting articles with food for thought!

11 Common Traits of Mass Murderers

1. Statistically speaking, the average serial killer is a white male from a lower-to-middle-class upbringing. In fact, over 90 percent of serial killers are men.

2. Most serial killers are in their 20s or 30s.

3. Most mass murderers are single or divorced.

4. As children, soon-to-be serial killers often torture animals.

5. More than 60 percent of serial killers wet the bed beyond the age of 12.

6. According to the A to Z Encyclopedia of Serial Killers, many serial killers are obsessed with starting fires. Ottis Toole, George Adorno, and Carl Panzram are just a few of the many serial killers with a childhood history of arson.

7. Many mass murderers and serial killers have an extraordinarily high IQ. For example, the Unabomber is a genius.

8. A lot of serial killers come from dysfunctional families with an absent father. Marc Lepine (mass murderer of 14 people) is one of the many examples of fatherless serial killers.

9. Many serial killers suffered through childhood abuse. “The Boston Strangler” Albert DeSalvo was even sold off as a slave by his alcoholic father.

10. Serial killers often have a history of attempted suicide. Charles Edmund Cullen, the most prolific serial killer in the history of New Jersey, had 20 suicide attempts throughout his life.

11. Mass murderers are often loners who have very few social connections.
Source


The “Pseudocommando” Mass Murderer

The pseudocommando is a type of mass murderer who kills in public during the daytime, plans his offense well in advance, and comes prepared with a powerful arsenal of weapons. He has no escape planned and expects to be killed during the incident.
Research suggests that the pseudocommando is driven by strong feelings of anger and resentment, flowing from beliefs about being persecuted or grossly mistreated. He views himself as carrying out a highly personal agenda of payback. "

Source

Originally posted by Kali74
reply to post by Quadrivium

 

Why? My reply would be similar to my previous post.

If you wanted to talk about more common crimes your argument would be more than valid. But mass murder? No.

Hmmmmm.......
Curious. So what form of mental health problems do you suppose they had in common? Q

reply to post by Quadrivium


maybe the drugs the health providers put them on. Seems to me that some of these drugs cause a complete loss of empathy in the child that takes them. They go from feeling overwhelmed and confused to feeling nothing at all. Makes one wonder what is worse. And how many of them actually need to take a pill every day? Is it really a necessity or a cop out because ppl don't want to deal with their kids? Should mental health providers be trying to get to the cause of a problem in a person first and then treat with meds if absolutely needed? Seems to me that they drug them up FIRST and THEN put them through counciling, which seems counter productive if the drugs are dimming their senses of morality and compassion. They can't get to the root of a problem and solve the problem if they don't even CARE about the problem any more. I've heard first hand from parents who "just can't deal with their kid any more and don't know what to do" but has never once tried to put their foot down and discipline the child, put their child on ridlin.

Originally posted by ShotGunRum
reply to post by Quadrivium

 

Do you really believe this nonsense?

People do not become mass murderers because they "didn't have rules" growing up.

Yes actually, I do believe this. I stated several times it was MY OPINION.
When you let your child run free with no consequences during youth you are asking for trouble.
When the child gets into his teen years what the parent once thought of as "cute" or didn't take the time to notice, takes an ugly turn.
Many parents try to take control at this point and are over strict with the teen.
Being a teen, he will not understand the parent's actions which lead to feelings of loosing control, depression, he will be angrier and most likely feel the treatment is unjustified. These feelings grow and multiply the more the parent tries to correct a problem that should have been addressed throughout their childhood. Add all of these things to the normal pressure of being a teen. Eventually something will give and may end in something like we saw yesterday.
Quad

reply to post by MidnightSunshine

Ahhh!!! My favorite subject!!
Of your list:

4) Any disease, disorder, or medical condition that started at birth

This one is the primary factor.

Then, add in the Family System of dysfunction that is inherited' - meaning parenting styles, temperaments, coping mechanisms, and world view - what role the person generally played in the Family (hero, mascot, scapegoat, invisible child, clown) and expectations, and you have a mess. In my opinion, it is poor coping skills that lead to these tragedies.

Validation is particularly important for kids as they grow up. A kid needs to know the vocabulary to use, and to be TAUGHT HOW TO RECOGNIZE and to NAME his feelings. The parent (or parent-figure) must be paying attention, and to recognize the child's behavioral expression of discomfort.

"You are feeling frustrated." "You are tired."
or other things like

over-stimulated
angry
embarrassed
guilty
ashamed
jealous
stressed

FAR TOO MANY people do not get this kind of teaching from their parents. The parent must teach the child HOW TO COPE with those uncomfortable EMOTIONS, and how to MANAGE their behavior. It's not so much about "rules," as it is EDUCATION. Every person is different, and what works for the parent may not work for the child. Conversely, if the child sees only Poor Coping Skills, that is what they learn.

I'm very interested in this thread, thanks OP.... have you read any of John E. Douglas's books?

Profiling
Douglas examined crime scenes and created profiles of the perpetrators, describing their habits and attempting to predict their next moves. In cases that his work helped to snare the criminals, he built strategies for interrogating and prosecuting them, as well. Douglas was instrumental in the capture of numerous violent offenders and for years he assisted police relative to identifying and apprehending the Green River Killer in the Seattle, Washington metro area. The Green River case nearly cost him his life, when his stressed and overworked body was unable to fight off viral encephalitis.[5]

Following his retirement from the FBI in 1995, Douglas has gained international fame as the author of a series of books detailing his life tracking serial killers, and has appeared numerous times on television.[2] His books are considered to be some of the most insightful works written on the minds, motives, and operation of serial killers, and the methods and lives of those who track them

And then, aside from profiling, there is Investigative Psychology:

Investigative psychology is the term given to a new area of applied psychology.[1] This new field attempts to describe the actions of offenders and to develop an understanding of crime. This understanding can then help solve crimes and contribute to prosecution and defense procedures. [2][3]

It brings together issues in the retrieval of investigative information, the drawing of inferences about that information and the ways in which police decision making can be supported through various systems derived from scientific research. It should not be confused with profiling which grew out of the experience of police officers offering opinions to their colleagues about the possible characteristics of unknown offenders.

S/F - let's get busy!

For the last 15 years or so there has been a feel good agenda corrupting our children. A trophy for every child, win or lose they are told they won. They are not allowed to lose, period. They are coddled and convinced that they are the answer to the worlds problems. We are seeing the unintended consequences of this policy on a daily basis it seems. When we shove them out into the real world and harsh reality slaps them in the face they have no mechanism to cope with their failures. They turn bitter. Losing builds character and can be learned from far better than winning ever could. If you have children you should teach them that losing is a good thing and that they will in fact lose more than they win. Nobody wins everytime at everything. They will not walk into the job force and instantly be running the show. Their ideas will be shot down repeatedly. They are not the sharpest knife in the drawer and there will always be somebody that is better at anything they do. Sure it is great to win and they should strive for it but they should not expect it everytime. Our society is turning more bitter by the day. This is a big part of why that is. The mental health of our children requires that they accept losing as a learning experience. This is but one variable in this big puzzle. A world where we post our successes and failures on Facebook, make enemies on Facebook. Do 90% of our socializing on Facebook with no real human face to face interaction to speak of is not good for society.

The problem is certain people are not getting the mental health they need.

This country needs to really consider its mental health programs, some people need to be put away for their own safety and more importantly for the safety of others.

bascom-new.brynmawr.edu...
www.pbs.org...

Noticing we had many mentally ill in prisons, we built mental institution, then we had deplorable condition in Mental institutions, now the mentally ill are back on the streets or back in prison, or worse.

At this day and age are we incapable of running good institution for the mentally ill?

reply to post by Stormdancer777

The problem is certain people are not getting the mental health they need.

While this is certainly true, it's the causes of the mental illness that need to be addressed.

reply to post by Kali74

The level of insanity that it takes to be able to do what happened yesterday is pretty extreme and not something that can be 'caused' except by maybe ignoring or denying that a mental illness was so acute in the first place.

I agree,

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by Stormdancer777

 

The problem is certain people are not getting the mental health they need.

While this is certainly true, it's the causes of the mental illness that need to be addressed.

There are many cause and many levels of insanity, and it is hard to define.

How do you tell when someone is going to just, snap?

reply to post by Stormdancer777

How do you tell when someone is going to just, snap?

Good question. First of all, it would take vigilance and effort - and listening to the person's thoughts. Or, if they won't talk, watching their behavior very carefully, especially how (or whether) they relate to other people. Having some training to recognize red flags is important, and with the internet, there are OODLES of resources for parents, coworkers, neighbors, lay-people, etc.

I think teaching parenting skills to EVERYONE should be required education.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by Stormdancer777

 

The problem is certain people are not getting the mental health they need.

While this is certainly true, it's the causes of the mental illness that need to be addressed.

This is what I find myself wondering! Because, look, even on this board, you get people mentioning all the time that they are bi-polar, ADD or whatever, and that they are on meds. It sounds like a very large percentage of Americans are diagnosed and being treated for psychological disorders! Much more than in most other countries (I know I better back that up- I'll go looking for the stats...)

But that makes me think- it doesn't seem like people aren't getting treatment....!
Or..... are the ones getting treatment the least ill? Because the truly ill don't tend to recognize that they have a problem. And in the US, everyone pretty much has the right and responsibility to notice they need help and go seek it out- it is not acceptable to interfere with others lives, judge them, or threaten their personal freedom.

Both of my parents being in he mental health field, I know how difficult it is to hold or treat an adult against their will- you almost have to wait until they do something like this.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by Stormdancer777

 

How do you tell when someone is going to just, snap?

Good question. First of all, it would take vigilance and effort - and listening to the person's thoughts. Or, if they won't talk, watching their behavior very carefully, especially how (or whether) they relate to other people. Having some training to recognize red flags is important, and with the internet, there are OODLES of resources for parents, coworkers, neighbors, lay-people, etc.

I think teaching parenting skills to EVERYONE should be required education.

You would have thought his mother who was a teacher would have had some sort of clue.

reply to post by Bluesma

I know how difficult it is to hold or treat an adult against their will- you almost have to wait until they do something like this.

Yes because they decided it was against their civil rights.
en.wikipedia.org...

Why are we so medicated?

We are a bunch of lab rats.

My mother was on the psych floor a couple times when I was young, I remember her delusions.

I don't have any answers.

reply to post by Stormdancer777

You would have thought his mother who was a teacher would have had some sort of clue.

Yeah, you might have thought that. But teachers are not trained to be parents, they are trained to deliver lessons, maybe to develop rapport, and how to measure outcomes. I've known some really CRAP teachers. Also some CRAP parents. The two are not mutually inclusive.

Originally posted by Bluesma

The “Pseudocommando” Mass Murderer

The pseudocommando is a type of mass murderer who kills in public during the daytime, plans his offense well in advance, and comes prepared with a powerful arsenal of weapons. He has no escape planned and expects to be killed during the incident.
Research suggests that the pseudocommando is driven by strong feelings of anger and resentment, flowing from beliefs about being persecuted or grossly mistreated. He views himself as carrying out a highly personal agenda of payback. "

Source

edit on 15-12-2012 by Bluesma because: (no reason given)

edit on 15-12-2012 by Bluesma because: (no reason given)

This is exactly what I am talking about.
Quad