America "Do Not Let CT Amend Our Constitutiion."

Originally posted by exponent

Originally posted by kingsquirel
Most forget, to soon, that America set the precedence with the legal standard, as it once was a hierachial chain, and if you where not in the top down from two, your family was worthless. So let us not forget what America has done for all people, if not a bill of rights, to stopping slavery.

No offence but I think you need to learn your history a little better. America has done some good things, but you most certainly did not 'stop slavery'. Nor did you invent many of the legal remedies you are proud of: en.wikipedia.org...

Much of what you use in your government came from ours, and we have pioneered significant improvement in the rights of our citizens since then. Not to say America has been wholly bad or anything, but if you think having a constitution is some sort of amazing feat then you need to learn a lot more about where your nation came from.

Speaking of history. You might want to read a little more about the Roman Empire. I think the comparison is a little more compelling, than what we might have copied from yours. And from where, and whom did your founding fathers get the idea to found your country on the principles you live under?
I'm not saying that I know. I'm asking do you?

Originally posted by OOOOOO
reply to post by exponent

 

And a again I only brought this to light, read the link bozo, bitch in comments there I don't need to hear your lips flapping.

edit on 15-12-2012 by OOOOOO because: (no reason given)

What a reasoned and intelligently thought out reply, exponent mate, he's kind of got you here.

Originally posted by Suohhen
Speaking of history. You might want to read a little more about the Roman Empire. I think the comparison is a little more compelling, than what we might have copied from yours.

The Roman Empire died more than half a millenia before your country was founded. While the ultimate source for some of the legal rights and remedies do come from the Roman period, my point was that America did not 'end slavery' or anything so silly.

And from where, and whom did your founding fathers get the idea to found your country on the principles you live under?
I'm not saying that I know. I'm asking do you?

We don't really have 'founding fathers'. Our country was born out of constant conflict and strife, it was not formed with a document as such.

It's a complex issue, and you're right to highlight that we did not create the 'modern world'. I just wanted to illustrate that America was inspired by their forebears, the same as every country.

Originally posted by kingsquirel
Been on ATS for a bit, and have observed several members whom do not have a constitution, but rather if their lucky a bill of rights, and some do not have that, whom want to get involved with America, and its 2nd Amendment rights. So hear is what i say: America do not let foreigners who not have a clue the rights you have, whom not the thought of what it is to bear rights, whom not the thought of free speach, whom not the thought of a country that granted you a right to lawyer, and jurisprudence, and the right for trial by your accusator. Most forget, to soon, that America set the precedence with the legal standard, as it once was a hierachial chain, and if you where not in the top down from two, your family was worthless. So let us not forget what America has done for all people, if not a bill of rights, to stopping slavery. You decide, however, from the posts that I have observed tonight, some are making me ill, and I love America: As it is the first nation that had the fiefs more than bardered slaves, and sets the precedence throughout the world, and if this nation failes, guess what so to will every other nations, "bill of rights.' Nothing but love for my country."

edit on 14-12-2012 by kingsquirel because: (no reason given)

edit on 14-12-2012 by kingsquirel because: (no reason given)

What absolute rubbish.

America did not set a precedence of legal standard, in any way. America stopped slavery? No, people within America ended slavery, something your government and people supported for a very long time!

Lets not rewrite history here.

I think you need to go back to school, and maybe a school in another country so that you are not spoon fed American propaganda about how wonderful and almighty the USA is.

The USA is not #1 in anything positive. Education, economic equality, democracy, health care... in everything worth being proud about America is beaten by several other nations, but so many Americans seem to think they are automatically world leader in all these respects! Where does this "America is the greatest" delusion come from?

As for who should discuss gun laws in the USA, I'll debate anything I damn well please, thanks. I don't need your permission to tell Americans that I think their gun laws are retarded and that those who wave around the constitution to defend very outdated mindset should be told to STFU.

Originally posted by ffman
At one point, the Constitution:

- allowed slavery
- did not allow women to vote

Think about that. The Constitution is an evolving document.

And, if you want to stick to the "literal" Constitution, the founding fathers had a different definition of "right to bear arms" than we do. It was in regards to a "well-regulated militia necessary to the security of a free state". Would they agree that "bearing arms" is an ordinary citizen owning several assault rifles that could hold hundreds of rounds and could kill many people?


Furthermore, gun control does not mean banning all guns. More regulation is needed, both in regards to who can buy a gun and what kind of guns can be purchased.

Correct. The issue needs to be revisited in an adult manner.

After all...the constitution DOESN'T guarantee the "right to own guns"...it guarantees the "right to bear ARMS". However...most reasonable individuals DO NOT think that this should include nuclear arms, mustard gas, or stockpiles of smallpox.

So...the REAL question is WHAT KINDS of "arms" are we OK with everyone having a right to NOW, in the information age.

Although...let me ALSO add this into the discussion as well. A HUGE PART of the reason people feel compelled to own lots of guns is a deep and VERY JUSTIFIED fear of what our government would do to us if we DIDN'T have them.

Contrary to popular myth...our track record is not good. In the last 200 years we have placed two ethnic groups in concentration camps, experimented on our own people like guinea pigs, worked chinese laborers on the railroad so hard they had a 75% mortality rate, killed approx. 1,000,000 of our own sons in a civil war, killed another 2-3 million CIVILIANS during that same civil war (which you don't often hear too much about), routinely use our children as cannon fodder as we start wars of imperialism under false pretenses, and engage in an untold number of creepy experiments on civilian populations.

Thus, along with an adult conversation about guns...we ALSO need to bring ALL MUNICIPAL POLICE DEPARTMENTS underneath the ELECTED Sheriffs Department. This idea that it's OK to have a paramilitary force occupying our cities which is not in ANY WAY accountable to public it "protects" by beating them to death, using chemical weapons on them, torturing them with electroshock, and executing their family pets for no reason is BEYOND unconstitutional.

...and the same for the DHS and FEMA. Given our age of ever-increasing natural disasters and the obsolescence of symmetrical warfare, I COMPLETELY recognize the need and wisdom for such institutions. However, the fact that they are run in the shadows, by NON-ELECTED individuals and the public has NO RECOURSE AGAINST these institutions is the definition of tyranny.

But then again...if the DHS in it's current incarnation was ACTUALLY concerned about "terrorism" and whatnot...the TSA would probably spend more time inspecting shipping containers, ports, and patrolling our porous borders instead of fondling grandma at the airport.

Unfortuantely....history tells us that such nuance in thinking requires a level of critical thinking that Americans are normally just too lazy to engage in. Instead we will divide upon the usual lines of artificially created cultural warfare where Team Tie-Dye squares off against Team RealTree.

...maybe playing the violin while Rome burns isn't so nutty after all.

Originally posted by exponent

Originally posted by OOOOOO
reply to post by exponent

 

Your not to bright either, the article is saying gun control does not work, what works is arming the school with arm guards, that people with guns in case you don't know.

You're
too
armed
that's

I'm well aware of what armed guard means. I'm showing how your point is total nonsense and that the UK did not experience some exceptional rise in violent crime when we banned firearms. In fact, poverty and low social mobility dominates our crime statistics way more than anything else.

And a again I only brought this to light, read the link bozo, bitch in comments there I don't need to hear your lips flapping.

edit on 15-12-2012 by OOOOOO because: (no reason given)

No shock you don't want to see the evidence that shows you to be wrong.

To further add to your point:

Doing a little research myself, while gun crime rates are still relatively high in the UK, gun death rates are quite low. From my post in another topic:

In Britain where guns are heavily controlled:

2009 gun deaths: 138

2009 US gun homicides (not counting suicides by gun): 9,146

www.gunpolicy.org...

www.gunpolicy.org...

Originally posted by OOOOOO

Your not to bright either

Oh the sweet, sweet irony.

Typical closed minded hysteria I expect from a certain type of poster. No one in Britain will go to jail for defending their family from intruders (who themselves are unlikely to be armed with a gun). The law was recently strengthened to reflect this. I'm assuming you don't own a passport and have never left whatever state you reside in.

If you don't want Brits commenting on 'America's business' then don't post things on an internet site that is viewable by anyone.

Oh yeah!!

Well...you don't see America sticking THEIR noses into everyone ELSE'S business...DO YOU??
LOL.
#sarcasm

Originally posted by khimbar

Originally posted by OOOOOO

Your not to bright either

Oh the sweet, sweet irony.

Hay know...quiet making fun of tradishunal Americin valus!! We have the write to bear arms. Were knot the one's who is a bunch of MorAns!!

Originally posted by ffman
To further add to your point:

Doing a little research myself, while gun crime rates are still relatively high in the UK, gun death rates are quite low. From my post in another topic:

In Britain where guns are heavily controlled:

2009 gun deaths: 138

2009 US gun homicides (not counting suicides by gun): 9,146

edit on 15-12-2012 by ffman because: (no reason given)

If you select 'Gun Homicides' for the UK instead of just deaths related to firearms you'll find that in 2009 our homicides were a grand total of 18

We have 1/5th your population, and you have more than 500x higher number of gun homicides.

It's pretty ridiculous.

The USA is not #1 in anything positive. Education, economic equality, democracy, health care... in everything worth being proud about America is beaten by several other nations, but so many Americans seem to think they are automatically world leader in all these respects! Where does this "America is the greatest" delusion come from?

It's a by-product of the Cold-War era brainwashing and our failed educational system. On behalf of all Americans...please accept my apologies for our endemic state of willful ignorance which we live in. It's embarrassing...but I won't try to pretend that it doesn't exist. What I wouldn't give to live in a country of sane people...you are very fortunate.

As for who should discuss gun laws in the USA, I'll debate anything I damn well please, thanks. I don't need your permission to tell Americans that I think their gun laws are retarded and that those who wave around the constitution to defend very outdated mindset should be told to STFU.

Good for you. You gotta love how the guy is one second giving you a lecture on American "freedoms"...and the next telling you that you don't have right to speak your mind freely.

As one of my all-time favorite (and somewhat internationally obscure) rock bands from the '80's once said...

"America is the Home of Hypocrite"


(Lyrics below).


America is
America is
America is
America is
America is the home of the hypocrite
America is the home of the hypocrite
America is the home of the hypocrite
American dream so f-f-full of it

Look at the indians
look at the blacks
look at the figures
look at the facts
check out the facts
the facts not the lies
when you find out
big surprise

America is the home of the hypocrite
America is the home of the hypocrite
America is the home of the hypocrite
American dream so f-f-full of it

check out the indians
check out the blacks
check out the figures
check out the facts
check out some facts
check out the facts not the lies
when you find out
it's a big surprise right between the eyes

America is the home of the hypocrite
America is the home of the hypocrite
America is the home of the hypocrite
American dream so f-f-full of it

american dream is only a dream
no desperation limit
new desperation level
even though my nose don't work
I smell trouble I smell trouble
no desperation limit
new desperation level
murder, mureder in the goverment
say you're sorry
say you're sorry
no desperation limit
new desperation level
turn the key
turn the lock
nationalism
you can suck my..
no desperation limit
new desperation level
watch the worl's progressin'
everywhere
aggresion, aggresion
aggresion, aggresion
aggresion, aggresion

Originally posted by exponent

Originally posted by ffman
To further add to your point:

Doing a little research myself, while gun crime rates are still relatively high in the UK, gun death rates are quite low. From my post in another topic:

In Britain where guns are heavily controlled:

2009 gun deaths: 138

2009 US gun homicides (not counting suicides by gun): 9,146

edit on 15-12-2012 by ffman because: (no reason given)

If you select 'Gun Homicides' for the UK instead of just deaths related to firearms you'll find that in 2009 our homicides were a grand total of 18

We have 1/5th your population, and you have more than 500x higher number of gun homicides.

It's pretty ridiculous.

Well...there you go using math again. Trust me...as an American myself let me assure you that such an approach will only fall on deaf ears. Could you perhaps frame your argument in the context of ridiculous hyperbole and willful ignorance?

Perhaps invoking the poorly translated oral traditions of wandering desert nomads which were predominantly formed during the transition from the Neolithic stone age to the Bronze Age? Maybe toss in a "George Washington said ________" and a shrill, screeching, scream of "MARXIST!!!" for good measure?

You will find we Americans much more receptive if you communicate with us in the manner we are accustomed to.

Originally posted by exponent

Originally posted by ffman
To further add to your point:

Doing a little research myself, while gun crime rates are still relatively high in the UK, gun death rates are quite low. From my post in another topic:

In Britain where guns are heavily controlled:

2009 gun deaths: 138

2009 US gun homicides (not counting suicides by gun): 9,146

edit on 15-12-2012 by ffman because: (no reason given)

If you select 'Gun Homicides' for the UK instead of just deaths related to firearms you'll find that in 2009 our homicides were a grand total of 18

We have 1/5th your population, and you have more than 500x higher number of gun homicides.

It's pretty ridiculous.

That's even more astonishing.

That site only had US suicide numbers for 2005; there were over 10,000 gun suicides in the US in 2005.

Originally posted by OOOOOO
And a again I only brought this to light, read the link bozo, bitch in comments there I don't need to hear your lips flapping.

edit on 15-12-2012 by OOOOOO because: (no reason given)

You can't even control your niggling agressivity on a keyboard. And you're here trying to convince us that you should be allowed to own a gun ?

reply to post by detachedindividual


Oh...one more thing.

yeah !!!!

we should arm kindergardeners with semi automatic weapons so they can defend themselves !!!


'merica !!!!!!

Originally posted by ffman
That's even more astonishing.

That site only had US suicide numbers for 2005; there were over 10,000 gun suicides in the US in 2005.

To be fair, 18 is a low number. The average for the UK is around 30-50, so 3-5 murders per month in a country of over 60 million people.

This is not just a combination of our different social structure. The restriction of firearms plays an important part here. Acquiring a firearm is possible, but as it will massively multiply any jail time or similar punishment.

America is unfortunately too self obsessed, too concerned about their own personal safety rather than societal issues. It's weird, and I have no idea who is to blame, but we can see the difference in attitudes in this thread easily.

Originally posted by exponent

Originally posted by ffman
To further add to your point:

Doing a little research myself, while gun crime rates are still relatively high in the UK, gun death rates are quite low. From my post in another topic:

In Britain where guns are heavily controlled:

2009 gun deaths: 138

2009 US gun homicides (not counting suicides by gun): 9,146

edit on 15-12-2012 by ffman because: (no reason given)

If you select 'Gun Homicides' for the UK instead of just deaths related to firearms you'll find that in 2009 our homicides were a grand total of 18

We have 1/5th your population, and you have more than 500x higher number of gun homicides.

It's pretty ridiculous.

I'm glad someone pointed that out...I was just going to post that myself!

If it had have been compared correctly it would have read...

2009 UK gun homicides (not counting suicides by gun) 18

2009 US gun homicides ( not counting suicides by gun) 9,146

This does indeed show a damning picture!

I don't have a problem with America wanting to hold on to their gun culture. It is their own business...but I AM sick of having to read posts from those supporters of it, who use illogical arguments based on nothing but emotions, false facts and misconceptions.......

1000000000000000000000000000th thread on this.

Can't all the pro-gun threads just be combined already?

Originally posted by exponent

Originally posted by kingsquirel
The truly funny thing Ex, is i truly don't give a dam about U.K.- G.B. B, what I care about is America,

Maybe you should learn the actual history of your nation rather than some rose tinted patriotic nonsense where you invented law and saved the world from slavery.

Once again....please allow me to apologize on behalf of all Americans everywhere.

As frustrating as it must be for you to deal with us on the internet...trust me when I say you cannot possibly imagine what it's like to live in a country FILLED with crazy people pretty much everywhere you look.