The Hypocrisy of Gun Control Advocates

Originally posted by OOOOOO
"Gun Crime Soars in England Where Guns Are Banned"

link townhall.com...

Now don't bitch at me this is quote from link, if you want to bitch, bitch at link.

edit on 15-12-2012 by OOOOOO because: ,

I'll go ahead and talk about the gunsd since you seem to believe we are deflecting. here are the facts posted from the source of the poster I am quoting:

Figures showed the number of crimes involving handguns had more than doubled since the post-Dunblane massacre ban on the weapons, from 2,636 in 1997-1998 to 5,871.

Unadjusted figures showed overall recorded crime in the 12 months to last September rose 9.3%
....
Shadow home secretary Oliver Letwin said: "These figures are truly terrible.

"Despite the street crime initiative, robbery is massively up. So are gun-related crimes, domestic burglary, retail burglary, and drug offenses.

"The only word for this is failure: the Government's response of knee-jerk reactions, gimmicks and initiatives is not working and confused signals on sentences for burglary will not help either.
.......
At least some in the UK are talking about "attacking crime at its roots" by focusing on criminals, after all, guns are already banned so they can't blame crime on guns shooting themselves. Meanwhile in the United States, as more and more people own guns, the rate of violent crime has gone down.


Violent crime in the United States fell for the fifth consecutive year in 2011 with murder, rape and robbery all going down, although crime remains a serious problem in many urban areas, the FBI said on Monday.

The report of all crimes reported to police nationwide showed slightly more than 1.2 million violent incidents nationwide, while property crimes hit a nine-year low.

Compared with 2010, the new figures show violent crime down 3.8 percent overall. Property crime was down 0.5 percent.

Among violent incidents reported to police, murders were down about 0.7 percent, robberies dropped 4 percent, aggravated assaults declined 3.9 percent, and forcible rapes were down 2.5 percent.

On top of these figures, the notoriously violent city of Washington D.C. just saw its murder rate fall below triple digits for the first time since 1963 and just four years after the Supreme Court overturned the city's handgun ban in District of Columbia v. Heller.

IF tomorrow guns are banned from legal ownership in the United States, the rate of violent crimes will skyrocket. BECAUSE CRIMINALS DO NOT FOLLOW THE LAW

The hypocracy is true of people. Americans are broken. We have a tyranical government of whom we have given control. They are not questioned by us, we do not demand honesty of them. They have broken our society. They are druggin our food and water. They are vaccinating our children with harmful chemicals. They are labeling each and everyone of us with a personality disorder & then handing us drugs to fix it. They have indoctrinated our children and they are taking over with a regional government. We consume brain altering drugs and dont even realize it. And then we wonder why a 20 yr old shoots children. People are hypocrites and say they believe in freedom, but what they really mean is "their" freedom. Do as they want and they will call it "freedom" . I would never want to live in a society like this without a gun. NEVER!

reply to post by MagicWand67


A very well thought out and articulate argument. Thanks for providing rationality and common sense in this senseless time.

I would also like to report that at least three urabn cities with the highest murder and violent crime rates, such as Los Angelos, New York City, and Chicago have some of the strictes gun control laws in the country, with outright bans being also a factor. I would like an explanation as how this is possible, when the logic from "I heart gun control" is less guns equals less crime?

Originally posted by Helmkat
Why do gun advocates want to make the conversation about anything other than guns?

Instead of guns, lets talk about automobiles.

Instead of guns, lets talk about knives.

Instead of guns, lets talk about video games.

Instead of guns, lets talk about society.

Instead of guns, lets talk about politics.

Instead of guns, lets talk about Human nature.

I am not anti-gun, I've served in our armed forces. I've been prepared to use guns in self defense and in the defense of others. That being said we need to get a handle on the gun violence in America and that conversation cannot take place if we can't even talk about the role these weapons play in the problem and be willing to say "Yes, they are -part- of the problem."

edit on 15-12-2012 by Helmkat because: (no reason given)

I never said we shouldn't talk about guns. I absolutely think that some gun control is necessary and I support the existing laws, regulations and background checks. I would support enacting laws that prohibit clip capacity, require waiting periods, detailed background checks, mandatory safety classes and other such laws that are reasonable responses to the issue of gun control.

I don't support the idea of banning guns all together or blaming these tragedies on the availability of guns. The problem I have is by focusing on guns alone the real cause of these tragedies is ignored. We need to look deeper at the cause and not just try to put a band aid on the symptoms.

Originally posted by DYepes
Attention Europeans: you have absolutley no place to speak about the alleged "Broken American Society"

Says an American who doesn't want to hear what they have to say.

Every year communities in some country in the EU break out into riots causing may carnage and death. And we are not talking about the cesspools like Romania or Bulgaria, or even Greece. It happens in Britain, Spain and France as well and most recently in the Netherlands. We have all seen it on the global news. Youths enraged at the status quo of their European host nation. It would seem to me most of Europe on the community level is in more # than the majority of America.

Except you have no idea what you're talking about. The US sees just as much social unrest as we do. I can think of several incidents in the last few years. Remember G20?

We Americans understand your all just jealous that half your countries are still run under Monarchy. And to believe those Kings and Queens, Dukes and Lords have are merely for show is as ignorant as telling us we have problems with guns.

I love how you try and insist you're right despite the fact you already know what the argument against you is. How's your two party system working out? Seems like our symbolic figurehead is working better.

The FBI statistics alone show that murders and gun crimes are down year after year for about two decades now, while gun ownership is reaching unprecedant levels. Even accidental gun deaths go down year after year.

Despite this you have a murder rate way way higher than ours and kill 5-10,000 people per year with firearms. We kill around 50. Perhaps you should consider why this is.

You should be blaming the legally prescribed medications of one variation or another that almost every maniac shooter is usually under. It isnt any particular med, just the fact that most of these shooters are under some form of medication. Would it not reasonably make sense that things than can change the chemical balances in someones head and cause them to snap?

Yeah medication can, and then when they snap, guns make it easy to slaughter whole classrooms full of children with little effort. Both sides should be addressed.

Before we continue to blame guns for crime, even though FBI statistics show violent crimes involving firearms is continually on decline with record increased gun ownership, perhaps we should continue to find out what happens when an entire population is cutoff from even the most basic and supposedly benign legal prescription drugs. See how violent the people will actually get.

So let me get this straight. When a shooter kills an entire classroom full of kids, your suggestion is to ban the therapeutic drugs which are used to help other people with mental illnesses? Yeah i'm sure that'll have a fantastic effect there buddy.

My sons elementry school has two armed gaurds on campus at all times, and I am not in a high crime city or a high crime neighborhood. We must allow, no we must MANDATE that all schools, hospitals, and place of public gathering be patrolled by armed gaurds, and permit concealed carry at any and all functions outside of a courthouse or airport terminals of course.

edit on 12/15/2012 by DYepes because: (no reason given)

Who would want to live in such a dystopian hellhole? 9/10ths of our police aren't even armed and when asked they would quit the force before accepting firearms.

If this doesn't tell you that the policy in the US is wrong I don't know what to tell you. Even the people who are responsible for keeping the peace outright reject firearms.

Originally posted by DYepes
IF tomorrow guns are banned from legal ownership in the United States, the rate of violent crimes will skyrocket. BECAUSE CRIMINALS DO NOT FOLLOW THE LAW

edit on 12/15/2012 by DYepes because: (no reason given)

Here's a graph of violent crime in the UK over the last couple of decades. We banned all pistols and similar firearms at one point in this graph. If your hypothesis is true it should be really easy for you to show me where it is:



I look forward to your response.

Originally posted by DYepes
I would also like to report that at least three urabn cities with the highest murder and violent crime rates, such as Los Angelos, New York City, and Chicago have some of the strictes gun control laws in the country, with outright bans being also a factor. I would like an explanation as how this is possible, when the logic from "I heart gun control" is less guns equals less crime?

How does go to the next city/state, get a gun, bring it home. If anyone was serious about it, then the WHOLE country would have to do it ALL AT ONCE without the stupid situation of fed laws saying one thing and state laws say something else ( like mary jane laws). But it won't happen. People are scared. so they won't give up their security blankets just like a post just above this one. Proof positive that many people can see the system is broke, but there's no trust in govt to fi it.

I feel sorry for normal yanks who aren't into the violent mentality. Heck, there was even a preppers show where the local preacher came over and "blessed" the arms cache one bloke had. imo bizzare. But I think that that was in one of those southern states y'all

Originally posted by DYepes
I would also like to report that at least three urabn cities with the highest murder and violent crime rates, such as Los Angelos, New York City, and Chicago have some of the strictes gun control laws in the country, with outright bans being also a factor. I would like an explanation as how this is possible, when the logic from "I heart gun control" is less guns equals less crime?

Just imagine then what it would be like without gun bans? Those places are not violent because of gun control. Taking away guns does not make people more violent. Guns make it easier for people to be violent.

Just because the crime is high it doesn't mean it's because guns are banned. What ridiculous logic.

Crime in NY has in fact gone down, not up...

www.cityrating.com...

Originally posted by steve1709

Originally posted by DYepes
I would also like to report that at least three urabn cities with the highest murder and violent crime rates, such as Los Angelos, New York City, and Chicago have some of the strictes gun control laws in the country, with outright bans being also a factor. I would like an explanation as how this is possible, when the logic from "I heart gun control" is less guns equals less crime?

How does go to the next city/state, get a gun, bring it home. If anyone was serious about it, then the WHOLE country would have to do it ALL AT ONCE without the stupid situation of fed laws saying one thing and state laws say something else ( like mary jane laws). But it won't happen. People are scared. so they won't give up their security blankets just like a post just above this one. Proof positive that many people can see the system is broke, but there's no trust in govt to fi it.

The thing is that there's many many positive steps that could be taken immediately

• Requirements for registering and detailing any transfer of weapons
  
• Mandatory investigations with sporadic large ammo purchases
  
• Findings of liability for insufficiently secured firearms
  
• Mandatory checks of property, security, training before purchase

There's lots and lots of potentials, you don't need to outright ban guns immediately. The US has so many guns that it will take 2-3 decades to remotely bring down the number to reasonable levels.

reply to post by exponent

The thing is that there's many many positive steps that could be taken immediately

Requirements for registering and detailing any transfer of weapons
Mandatory investigations with sporadic large ammo purchases
Findings of liability for insufficiently secured firearms
Mandatory checks of property, security, training before purchase


There's lots and lots of potentials, you don't need to outright ban guns immediately. The US has so many guns that it will take 2-3 decades to remotely bring down the number to reasonable levels.

I can agree with all of those as being reasonable and responsible safety measures.

But none of those will prevent these kinds of tragedies.

As we now know that all the weapons used were registered to the shooters mother.

I can't post the link here (because I posted it earlier in a thread and it was removed by the mods). The shooter even posted his plan on the 4chan boards 2 days prior to him carrying it out.

Originally posted by MagicWand67
I can agree with all of those as being reasonable and responsible safety measures.

But none of those will prevent these kinds of tragedies.

How do you know? If his mother had secured her firearms properly perhaps he wouldn't have had access to them. If she had been reviewed prior to purchasing them perhaps her son's odd behaviour would have been noticed. If an ongoing assessment had to be made, perhaps psychological reports might have surfaced.

Yes, hind-sight is 20/20, but you seem to be saying that nothing could have prevented this, which is faulty thinking.

PS. The 4chan thing is probably a hoax.

reply to post by ANOK


You can pick a lot of large cities off there with basically no gun control laws, and they also have a descending trend in crime. Clearly it's not really about the guns. I bet most cities will start seeing an ascending trend within the next few years.

Say I take Miami: www.cityrating.com...-9w

Since you can find descending trends in both highly gun-controlled cities and those that have very little, saying that control control actually does anything is downright lying with statistics.

And to all of you gun control advocates out there:
The reality of it is, if you are a gun control advocate and you go to the movies and watch violent movies, or you play Call of Duty, etc. You are buying into the gun culture. You are promoting it in a non-productive nor positive way. It's not for hunting, sport, or leisure, it's now showing you that killing people is OKAY. You're propagating a problem. Quit being hypocrites. Wake up and realize that it's a TPTB agenda to take the guns out of populations (especially the USA), so they can replace "protection" with their own. Ever read 1984 or see V for Vendetta? Kind of like that. Guns are just the scapegoat. Look at China, a man managed to stab all those people at a school with a knife. A KNIFE. Not a gun. Let's all ban kitchen knives so you can't cut meat too. In fact, lets ban standard household chemicals and detergents so you can't make bombs that are far more destructive than any gun. Let's ban swimming and water so people can't drown or be drowned. We should also ban electricity seeing as you might get electrocuted. Sorry, but it still comes down to people and their mentality. If someone is dangerous, they will always find a way to harm others. Everything is a weapon in the wrong hands. Like that pen on your desk. Plain and simple.

reply to post by exponent

How do you know? If his mother had secured her firearms properly perhaps he wouldn't have had access to them. If she had been reviewed prior to purchasing them perhaps her son's odd behaviour would have been noticed. If an ongoing assessment had to be made, perhaps psychological reports might have surfaced.

Don't play dumb. That's just ignorant to believe.

OK, suppose the mother kept her guns locked up.

He stabs his mother to death and takes her keys.

Yes, hind-sight is 20/20, but you seem to be saying that nothing could have prevented this, which is faulty thinking.

No, faulty thinking is believing that you can ban crazy. No matter what laws are passed if someone wants to go on a killing spree they will find a way to do it.

Answer this below

reply to post by exponent

Strong gun regulation is essential to a civilised society

yah or at least a society whose spirit of freedom and liberty is already broken and which has more surveillance cameras per capita than anywhere else. All in how you look at it I guess.

Originally posted by MagicWand67
reply to post by exponent

 

Don't play dumb. That's just ignorant to believe.

OK, suppose the mother kept her guns locked up.

He stabs his mother to death and takes her keys.

Already making it harder for the kid to slaughter children. Maybe he couldn't outpower his mother. Please don't call me ignorant and then demand that you're right no matter what. That is the height of ignorance.

Answer this below

I'd be terrified to live in a society built around the right hand one. I don't want everyone constantly on edge and ready to shoot other people in 'defence'. All it takes is a tiny bit of confusion and all of a sudden you kill more innocent people than the actual shooter.

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
reply to post by exponent

 

yah or at least a society whose spirit of freedom and liberty is already broken and which has more surveillance cameras per capita than anywhere else. All in how you look at it I guess.

edit on 15-12-2012 by ThirdEyeofHorus because: (no reason given)

Even if you cite the flawed study that claimed this. It also noted that the vast majority were private cameras. Do you even know what you're talking about?

reply to post by exponent


I would guess the violence in England ended with the IRA I would think...ended officially around 97 or so... There is your violence slide along with the gun ban but now it is Muslims there. I would arm myself without question.

The comical part is how most people type cast the gun owner. My mother in law has, accessible, 3 rifles and 2 handguns in her home. She lives in a rural area in a nice home and her husband has passed. The AR-15 that was his is in her room. Now, they are all locked and ONLY she can use them. If the SHTF we could not use them... Is this a problem? Please explain this to me. My children cannot fire any weapon in my house nor do they know where they are. My wife does not know where some are. But they are all in safes and locked. Costs as little as 8 bucks or go to a local police station and I am sure they have a program to give you a free one. If someone was to try to enter my home, from my bed, it would take me less than 15 seconds to unlock the safe/load and call 911.

Now, a killer, if they cannot find something, will try and try or use something else. In this recent case, he was trusted with accessibility to the weapons. That was a poor choice of the registered gun owner but did it alone cause the death of these people. No. It was also the evil that was trapped within this person to commit such an act. If it was not with gun it would be something else eventually. I would almost bet anything he had killed a cat or a few squirrels to feel the spark he could control at some point. This is evil...Or maybe he thought he was Darth Vader...I mean, that where he killed all the little Jedi was a little disturbing, no? Who knows...

I think we should try to celebrate hte life of some of the heroes in the stories coming out from the school.

reply to post by exponent


See this is the problem I tried to point out.

I already agreed with all of your suggestions with safety measures.

I AGREED

But you still want to argue about it.

Because I didn't agree with your presumed results.

Originally posted by esdad71
reply to post by exponent

 

I would guess the violence in England ended with the IRA I would think...ended officially around 97 or so... There is your violence slide along with the gun ban but now it is Muslims there. I would arm myself without question.

Please don't be a racist. There's nothing scary about 'muslims'.

Is this a problem? Please explain this to me. My children cannot fire any weapon in my house nor do they know where they are. My wife does not know where some are. But they are all in safes and locked. Costs as little as 8 bucks or go to a local police station and I am sure they have a program to give you a free one. If someone was to try to enter my home, from my bed, it would take me less than 15 seconds to unlock the safe/load and call 911.

There's nothing too wrong with this. We are permitted shotguns in the UK in exactly the same situation. Secured in a safe with a limited magazine capacity and stored ammunition.

Now, a killer, if they cannot find something, will try and try or use something else. In this recent case, he was trusted with accessibility to the weapons. That was a poor choice of the registered gun owner but did it alone cause the death of these people. No. It was also the evil that was trapped within this person to commit such an act. If it was not with gun it would be something else eventually. I would almost bet anything he had killed a cat or a few squirrels to feel the spark he could control at some point. This is evil...Or maybe he thought he was Darth Vader...I mean, that where he killed all the little Jedi was a little disturbing, no? Who knows...

Right, but if he was forced to use a knife, do you really think he could have killed 20 children? The same goes for the many many mass shootings in recent US history.

I think we should try to celebrate hte life of some of the heroes in the stories coming out from the school.

Certainly, but this situation should have never happened. You guys need to learn lessons as a society instead of just shouting about how guns aren't the problem, despite the obvious difference in statistics.