Ban the Gun, Repeal the Second Amendment.

Originally posted by OtherSideOfTheCoin
reply to post by Shark_Feeder

 

So when shall you dismantle your own nation's military defences? It's guns are not needed for defence then lets see that first...

I am talking about civilian ownership of guns not about the use of arms for the military, a state’s ability to defend itself is necessary to secure its sovereignty


So no I will not be calling for the disarmament of British Armed Forces.

That's the rub mate, in the United States it is the people who are supposed to be sovereign not the government.

A large majority of citizines here are former militery, that is why Department Of Homeland Security stated that Veterans are potential terrorists, because we do have the training and the will to protect ourselves from eachother as well as our own government

Originally posted by ZiggyMojo
No friend, you've missed the logic. Never once did I say a knife is more deadly or effective than a gun. You've also helped prove my point.

I said "A knife is every bit as dangerous as a gun. Weapons are only as dangerous to people as the people wielding them. That is the logic you are missing."

Well of course there I agree...a gun is a paperweight until employed. However, a passion crime involving a gun is far less forgiving than a knife in regards to mortality rate.
My upstairs neighbor..his girlfriend knocked on my door one night with a knife wound in her bum. I had the duty of cleaning and home stitching her wound..the guy (her boyfriend) didn't have a gun, otherwise it wouldn't be me trying to sort her out in my bathroom, but instead watching a coroner do his work.

And if she had a gun, he would no doubt been shot also (probably rightfully so). Both of them could easily pass a background check btw..well, her definately..him, maybe. They just couldn't afford a gun.

The U.S. has a violence rate of 466 crimes per 100,000 residents, Canada 935, Australia 92 and South Africa 1,609.

Not sure what those stats prove overall. People like to punch people...sort of the norm I guess..and keep in mind, Canadans are hockey fans..violence is sort of a national past time there should you start rooting for the wrong team. But violence does not mean death...just the odd black eye and fat lip.

South Africa is a powder keg of angst amongst the different sects.

reply to post by RedmoonMWC


I don't think they are even trying to listen man. Seriously...

Originally posted by detachedindividual

Originally posted by nixie_nox
The UK anti-gun people have conveniently ignored my point.

How safe would their little island be, if it bordered on Brazil?

I think I would know the answer.

They keep trying to use their island, which is the size of one of our states, and compare it to the US.

that would be like trying to compare Tibet to China.

How many people have you had to defend yourself against with a gun?

How many times has anyone on ATS ever had to use a gun to defend themselves?

I'll bet that none of you have, apart from maybe some vets here.

I'll bet that many of those who defend their right to own a gun don't even have one, because they've never actually had cause to genuinely need to defend themselves. It's just the typical right wing response that anything that threatens anything in the constitution be attacked (unless it's something their fellow right wing president does though, right?)

A few things need to be pointed out. Roughly 17,000 people were killed by firearms in the U.S. in 2011. Of those, over 55% were suicides and roughly 10% were in self defense or by police(not sure on the number for accidents). As far as self defense, the FBI does put out hard numbers but, research suggests that when a gun is pulled out in self-defense, it is fired less than 3% of the time. Of the remaining homicides, Gangs account for a large portion and don't forget that the cities with the highest murder rates have the most strict gun laws.

How many people have you had to defend yourself against with a gun?
How many times has anyone on ATS ever had to use a gun to defend themselves?
I'll bet that none of you have, apart from maybe some vets here.

You are wrong, I have used a gun to defend myself... twice in my lifetime and I'm no vet.

All these criminals had to know was that I did had a gun, which made them think twice about what they were intending on doing and nothing escalated from the events...

Would I have used the Gun, absolutely

Originally posted by TrueMessiah

Originally posted by detachedindividual

Originally posted by macman
reply to post by detachedindividual

 

Yeah, because no society has EVER taken on and held their own against an over powering Govt that had them out gunned.

Sure sure.

Love to hear the Progressive Liberal ideals here.

What are you talking about?

People overthrow their governments WITHOUT mass gun ownership. Libya, Syria, Egypt... none of those countries had gun ownership like the USA. And yet they managed.

So what's your argument?

If the American people ever did overthrow their government it would be with outside help, not with a few million nutters with high powered assault rifles.

I don't know why I'm bothering, because all you rabid Republicans are the same - ignore the facts and common sense, just wave around outdated scraps of paper in defence of your own insanity, but only when it suits your own freedoms and screw everyone else.

Tell me, when does your right to own a gun you'll never need less important than the rights of other Americans to live in peace and security without the threat that someone might burst in and kill them all at any moment?

While I agree with you for the most part, the "you'll never need" part I don't.
If a armed burglar kicked your door in and you we're defenseless you'd be so screwed. So yes there are some instances where you WILL need one.

And what are the chances of that happening? And if it did happen, what are the chances that they would be armed with a gun?

The chances that you will have to defend yourself against an armed intruder are so slim it's nonsense! You're more likely to get hit by a bus.

Anyone can think of a scenario to excuse anything. I should have a nuclear weapon, because there is a chance (however ridiculously slim) that North Korea might target my city. So therefore it justifies it? Nonsense.

Personally, I think that the right to bear arms should only be enacted once you have served in the armed services or otherwise fulfilled some course in discipline, gun ownership and responsibility, etc...

Not only would this make you far less likely to go off on a tangant, but also would make you a better shooter for emergencies, give you the discipline and trained mindset to use the weapon properly should it be needed.

I have not been in the military, I do respect the hell out of them, but it just wasn't for me (authority issues..my sarcasm would have be kp for years)...but if I wanted a gun, I would accept some sort of training of mind, body, and spirit so to speak in order for me to attain the right to have one.

I know thats not how the constitution currently defines it, but I think its time we take into consideration the growth of the nation, the changing times, and the wisdom gained through the years.
Jefferson made it clear that the constitution shouldn't be seen as some holy text, but rather a baseline to work on as wisdom grows.

reply to post by detachedindividual


May I assume your are pagan... because I am disappointed in your view if you are..

Mother Maiden Crone

Father Warrior Sage


It is the warrior part I will allude to...

The duty of a guardian to protect is sacred doubly to Pagans... If the Guardians of these children had been armed.. the children might have been alive.. we will never know...


to know, to will, to dare, to keep silent


Pagans believe everything is interconnected.. this includes actions and speech.. The actions of those who disarmed those guardians are just as guilty as the shooter..

Thats right ban the gun afterall, people dont run round with knives killing people. Nothing like praying on the emotions of people to ban guns or using the horrible deaths of children to carry out an agenda.

This is a mental health problem not a gun problem.

The US is horrible as far as the mental health system goes and these acts of violence are the result.

reply to post by OtherSideOfTheCoin


I'm not playing anything with statistics, but I'm definitely trying to deny the ignorance that people are parading as fact. The US homicide rates are nowhere near what people think they are, and our gun death rates are only higher because WE HAVE GUNS. Our other violent crime mortality is lower than many other 1st world countries.

I'm simply providing the facts so people can see it isn't all about GUNS. It is about people. It's about a failed society and a machine like existence that we've all come to live. We are divided and separated and taught to be intolerant instead of united, cultured and tolerant. The economic divides feed these problems. The pursuit of wealth, material or a perceived necessity are all catalysts that are conducive to violent crimes. Our callousness and desensitized minds perpetuate the reality that we are experience. The world is a mirror that reflects everything back that you project. When peace, love and tolerance are projected that is what will be reflected. It is unrealistic and it will probably never happen, but at least I am not living a lie. You and I are equally responsible for every murder that happens in this world. We are a part of the society that produced the murderer. We all feed the machine.

reply to post by detachedindividual


So are you beginning the campaign to dismantle you own nations military? That right there is step #1....anything else is posturing, and frankly ridiculous. No weapons are needed for defence right?

Originally posted by macman

Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff


Not having a clue or experience with some small town

Still dont see how having been or not been there is relevant.

Having never been to the US, not being from here and having never been to that town in GA.


Still dont see how having been or not been there is relevant.

Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff
Let me ask you a question, have you ever left the USA?

Sure have. Point being?

Point being is that amongst the international community there is the perception of gun toting, gun loving morons who never see the world and think gun ownership is necessary for safety.

I meet quite a few Americans out here and I always bring up guns, the only one Ive met who thinks owning a gun is the way forward worked for Haliburton.

An opinion on this subject doesnt gain any validity by having been to or residing in the US.

Out of curiousity where have you been?

reply to post by ZiggyMojo


Well if you compare America to other states comparable states in terms of development its really quite high, its amongst the highest of the developed states.

Originally posted by SaturnFX
Personally, I think that the right to bear arms should only be enacted once you have served in the armed services or otherwise fulfilled some course in discipline, gun ownership and responsibility, etc...

Not only would this make you far less likely to go off on a tangant, but also would make you a better shooter for emergencies, give you the discipline and trained mindset to use the weapon properly should it be needed.

I have not been in the military, I do respect the hell out of them, but it just wasn't for me (authority issues..my sarcasm would have be kp for years)...but if I wanted a gun, I would accept some sort of training of mind, body, and spirit so to speak in order for me to attain the right to have one.

I know thats not how the constitution currently defines it, but I think its time we take into consideration the growth of the nation, the changing times, and the wisdom gained through the years.
Jefferson made it clear that the constitution shouldn't be seen as some holy text, but rather a baseline to work on as wisdom grows.

Hey, I'm all for gun safety courses. In order to have a concealed carry license in my state you HAVE to take safety and discipline courses. Same goes for hunting. You can own a gun without taking a class, but it is pretty much only allowed to reside within your residence legally. I have no problems with creating a procedure that educates individuals on gun use. It would be beneficial in many ways.

reply to post by SaturnFX

The argument of going through a class is not valid, and here is why.

Unused skills expire and become stale.
It requires practice and constant practice for many situations to hit an object due to the flight or fight mechanism that kicks in.

I have been through hundreds of classes involving weapons and firearms. I also practice as well.

While there are money people that may not be able to hit what they are shooting at, if the time comes for a high stress incident, they are better off then the unarmed person.
The same goes for a person armed with a knife.
Most would consider themselves skilled with one, but unless they practice, it is unlikely.
Same goes for a baseball bat or anything else.

Guns don't kill people, governments do. if you want to lay blame anywhere, you need to blame the media for promoting every killing that occurs, especially ones involving young innocence, this is the driving force behind these killings, because the sickos know they will get headlines in their pathetic existences, where no one else would have ever given them the time of day,
Then you can blame the government for pushing us to the brink of desperate insanity with all their theft of everything we hold dear as the Americans that we are. but quit blaming guns, because i assure you, if guns weren't used far worse things would be implemented/substituted that would kill even more innocence and at greater frequency and there would be nothing anyone could do to stop them.

Granted, its a screwed up world, but its always screwed up and will always be screwed up, its just the nature of the beast, its preordained, you just have to prepare for the worst and expect anything...this aint no fairytale, its reality, ADAPT AND OVERCOME

just quit blaming guns because they aren't the problem

Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff

An opinion on this subject doesnt gain any validity by having been to or residing in the US.

Out of curiousity where have you been?

Also, your opinions on personal sovereignty gain no validity residing outside the US.

Out of curiosity where are you from?

I think I must be making some sort sense....No one seems to respond.

reply to post by SaturnFX


Jefferson said a lot of things:

hematite.com...

n 1785 Thomas Jefferson wrote to his fifteen-year-old nephew, Peter Carr, regarding what he considered the best form of exercise: "...I advise the gun. While this gives a moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprize, and independance to the mind. Games played with the ball and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walks."[1]

www.monticello.org...

Citizen and solider alike have the right to arms.

reply to post by Grimpachi

I do agree. oddly enough.
Stop making sense damn it.