Attn:Another_1 Re: The Trinity

I'd check a couple of sources, Lysergic.
"he naturally chose the diplomatic middle position and decided that God was three-in-one based on the theologians Tertullian, Cyprian, and Augustine. "

St Augustine hadn't even been born when Constantine died.

If it is the same Augustine? It doesn't matter, the trinity idea was not "wholy" constantines, it manifested itself earlier then that.

There's a risk of being distracted over Constantine the Great, here.
There's relatively little remaining as records of the First Council of Nicaea and I'm aware of nothing that suggests that Constatine took a very "hands on" approach. It isn't even clear how far the Pope (Sylvester 1) was involved.
My own impression is that Constantine simply wanted agreement between Arians and anti-Arians and a quiet life.
There is no doubt that Constantine was greatly influenced by Christianity - he also kept up all his pagan duties as Pontifex Maximus, however - and by the growing trend in the Empire towards some sort of monotheism.
On the other hand, most of his coins (those surviving) bear the legend "Sol Deus Invictus" - the invincible Sun God (and this was probably deliberately contrived to accommodate Mithraism as well.)
Above all, Constantine was a great soldier and a shrewd, ambitious politician. He wanted unity in the empire which had so long been fragmented and an end to civil war.
It appears that (e.g. in battle hymns of his soldiers which accommodate dany single deity much like the rather mealy-mouthed "multi-faith" prayers of ) he was quite open to ambiguity if it helped forge unity.

And, incidentally "homoousios" was just as ambiguous, certainly at the time of Nicaea.
Just like saying: "the two cars are the same" - but perhaps we mean "similar".
The vagueness of "same" has intrigued philosophers for centuries.

AS FAR BACK AS the earliest Apostolic times, Christ�s disciples were known as those who �call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ� (I Corinthians 1:2; cf. Acts 9:14, 21).
From the very beginning, the Holy Apostles were persecuted as those who �teach in the name of Jesus� (Acts 4:18; cf. 5:28).
They rejoiced when they suffered from persecution and violations �for His Name�s sake� (Acts 5:41).
In consequence of this, by the end of the first decade after the foundation of Christ�s Church, �the disciples were called Christians� (Acts 11:26).
This appellation was given to them first at Antioch, and probably by the local Gentiles, which implies that Christianity was no longer recognized as a Judaic sect, but as a distinct religious teaching.
[1] Later, St. Cyril of Jerusalem observes, in his Tenth Catechetical Homily (Chapter XVI): �Jesus Christ, the Son of God, honored us to call ourselves Christians,�
[2] whereas St. Athanasios the Great, in his First Homily against the Arians (Chapter II), states that �through Christ we are, and call ourselves, Christians.�[3]

It seems that this name quickly acquired public recognition, since even in the last half of the first century, the Roman historian Tacitus, in his work The Annals (Book XV, Chapter XLIV), when discussing Rome�s destruction by fire under the Emperor Nero, tells us that the Emperor blamed for this those �called by the people Christians [christianos].� Further on, he explains: �...the originator of that name, Christ [Christus], was sentenced to death by Pontius Pilate, the procurator, under the reign of Tiberius.�


[4]Thus, all subsequent persecutions by the pagan authorities against the disciples of Christ were under the banner of the struggle against Christianity as such. Referring to this fact,
St. Peter the Apostle writes: �If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; ...yet if any man suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf� (I St. Peter 4:14, 16).
As we see from the extant testimonies of the Martyrs, Christ�s Martyrs, when summoned to court, were accused specifically as Christians, which they professed themselves to be. The instance of the Holy Martyr Lukian of Antioch is rather typical. He suffered in one of the last persecutions of the early fourth century. Before breathing his last, he cried three times: �I am a Christian.�

do i have a headache? yes i do......

Now, It is said that they who are strangers to the illumunation of truth .......Walk in the wordly vanity of their mind,

having their understanding darkened,
being alienated from the life of God(Eph . 4 : 18 );
they have their portion in this life(Psalm 16 :14 );
Who mind earthly things, and whose end is destruction (Phil . 3 :19 ).

The truth of God calls such people the faithless and perverse generation (Matthew 17: 17 ) and for that reason says to us :Save yourselves from this untoward generation (Acts 2: 40 )
Light has come into the world, says the Lord, and men loved darkness rather than light (John 3 :19 )

The prophets , too , appealed : Who beleived our report?
And to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed (Is .53 :1 ) ?

Ye do err , not knowing the scriptures , nor the power of God (Matthew .22 : 29 )

These are the barriers to our enlightenment and achievement of eternal life , ie . , not knowing the scriptures , nor the power of God .
""Holy trinity Monastary january 16 , 1946 Abbot Panteleimon.......

Any one can pick up a pen and re- write whatever they want to..........Any one can make millions beleive in anything they want to.............They have succeeded to a certain extent..........For when it comes to the Word of God..........many have allowed their minds to be clouded by false teachers(Judgement)...............Call them what you wish.... I call them antichrists........

The Lord said ""I am come in My Father's name , and ye receive Me not :If another shall come in his own name ,him you will receive (John 5 : 43 )

The same , Saint Paul : Because they received not the love of the truth , that they might be saved, for this cause God shall send them strong delusion , that they should beleive a lie: that they all might be damned who beleived not the truth , but had pleasure in unrighteousness (11 Thess . 2 : 10 - 12 ).....
the Lord does not take pleasure in the death(punishment) of a sinner , but that the wicked turn his way and live ( Ezek . 33 : 11 )
Saint Paul sais : For , sowers for the body will harvest death(ie. punishment ) , and sowers for the Spirit , will harvest eternal life .

The friendship of the world is enmity with God ; whoever therefore will be a friend of the world , is an enemy of God (James 4 :4 )
Ye cannot serve God and Mammon (Mattew 6 : 24 )
Serving Mammon, (the god of money or earthly gain )especially when all the powers of the soul is sacrificed for this service , is a falling away from the serving of God , and a sure sign of falling into the deepest abyss of sinfulness with no way out...................(There's a parrable about a camel is easier to pass through the eye of the needle then for a rich man to enter heaven...but cant remmeber where.....)

[Edited on 5-5-2003 by helen670]

There were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will introduce destructive heresies and even deny the Master that ransomed them, bringing swift destruction on themselves.
Many will follow their licentious ways, and because of them the way of truth will be reviled.
In their greed they will exploit you with fabrications, but from of old their condemnation has not been idle and their destruction does no sleep.
--2 Peter 2:1-3.--

Beloved, do not trust every spirit but test the spirits to see wheather they belong to God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. This is how you can know the Spirit of God: every spirit that acknowledges Jesus Christ come in the flesh belongs to God, and every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus does not belong to God. This is the spirit of the antichrist that, as you heard, is to come, but in fact is already in the world. You belong to God, children, and you have conqured them, for the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.
--1 John 4:1-4.--

Constantine, this...............Constantine that...........
If the arguments are to be belived.Then one can make this summation;

-Constantine had to unify the roman empire.
To do this you don't introduce a unknown or foreign doctrine, and enforce it with military force.Therefore the doctrine must have already existed before Constantine.
(When is the mystery).


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Quote (abstract_alao)
You don�t believe me ?!!?!? LOOK IT UP!!! I have read from countless sources and seen a many of documentaries on this man. Where do you get your info from?!?!? Not the bible!!! You listen to what has been etched in your brain by your parents and priest. The kingdom of God is with in you. You ultimately decide what you want to believe. I base what I believe on two things. History and my faith in the oneness of God. I am on the purist of knowledge and that is truly what God wants us to do. To free our mind from the lies that have been passed down from generation to generation.
Quote
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Weak argument, it can be turned back on to you. We all have to ask ourselves these questions. Truth only comes through faith. Faith only comes through openness.

You obstinately argue using only facts from historical sources. Change your tact and show be what your faith and belief doctrine has to say. Because I to, can surf the web and read books for what I want to prove, disregarding the literature that does not.

I have an open mind and will look beneath the surface. Consider, not just the literal. Contemplate more than physical.




[Edited on 5-5-2003 by Maddas]

Maddas...........i dont get my Info from my parents...........

What sources do you get your's from???

I can watch documentaries........ I can watch the news .......it says nothing to me.....It proves nothing!!!
So where is the truth>>>???

The scriptures.......New Testament was first handed down orally and then put on paper.......
It was written down and those same people(not all of them ) had the same ''one mind'' of the meaning of the Bible...........Today people will make up their own 'interpretations'' of what they think...........

ps.....sorry Madas......



[Edited on 5-5-2003 by helen670]

Originally posted by helen670
I can watch documentaries........ I can watch the news .......it says nothing to me.....It proves nothing!!!

But ANTI-ISLAMIC sources do huh ?

Originally posted by helen670
""I am come in My Father's name , and ye receive Me not :If another shall come in his own name ,him you will receive (John 5 : 43 )

My whole point explained. Jesus had a really close connection to the Father, loved the Father, was loved by the Father, shared nature of the Father, but was not the Father.

I cannot and will not worship anybody except GOD Almighty, Creator & Sustainer of the World(s). =)

Peace

Originally posted by another_one

Originally posted by helen670
I can watch documentaries........ I can watch the news .......it says nothing to me.....It proves nothing!!!

But ANTI-ISLAMIC sources do huh ?

what ANTI-CHRISTIAN sites have you been visiting lately?

Originally posted by another_one

Originally posted by helen670
""I am come in My Father's name , and ye receive Me not :If another shall come in his own name ,him you will receive (John 5 : 43 )

My whole point explained. Jesus had a really close connection to the Father, loved the Father, was loved by the Father, shared nature of the Father, but was not the Father.

I cannot and will not worship anybody except GOD Almighty, Creator & Sustainer of the World(s). =)

Peace

which is why we worship Jesus. Jesus is God incarnate. God in flesh. Word become flesh.


Cant dog us for that. If we think he is God... co equal.... then how is it wrong FOR US to worship that way? You would tell others that he is not GOd because as you all say it he never directly or indirectly confirmed he is God (again as you say it)... but just as you believe that... you cant provide the same level of evidence that he says he isnt. Likewise dont you think that if he really didnt want us to worship him he would have said so? Don't you think that if it was soooo wrong or blasphomous for us to put Jesus on the same level as God that he would have driven home to us that problem in his talks many a times or anytime at all? Cant go with the "God is one" deal all the time on this type of argument.... because that is true with Christians and so it is rather ambigous in this.

the way i see it... if its so wrong to believe in Jesus this way I think a disticntion should have been made.. dont you? A really clear distinction like that of the other clear ones in the bible.

I think if one reads the bible in its entirety without any view or predjudice or privy to any theological system at all one would find himself at a certain point without a doubt.... that clearly Jesus is God incarnate.



peace man... just making convo... just spitting out my 2 cents not trying to be mean.

Originally posted by krossfyter

Originally posted by another_one

Originally posted by helen670
I can watch documentaries........ I can watch the news .......it says nothing to me.....It proves nothing!!!

But ANTI-ISLAMIC sources do huh ?

what ANTI-CHRISTIAN sites have you been visiting lately?

I only started doing so recently, and guess who I learned from. =D

Originally posted by another_one

Originally posted by krossfyter

Originally posted by another_one

Originally posted by helen670
I can watch documentaries........ I can watch the news .......it says nothing to me.....It proves nothing!!!

But ANTI-ISLAMIC sources do huh ?

what ANTI-CHRISTIAN sites have you been visiting lately?

I only started doing so recently, and guess who I learned from. =D

ah but you started!

Originally posted by krossfyter

which is why we worship Jesus. Jesus is God incarnate. God in flesh. Word become flesh.

Which others said, but Jesus never did.

Cant dog us for that. If we think he is God... co equal.... then how is it wrong FOR US to worship that way?

It is wrong because it's not what Jesus told you to do. And your belief in Jesus being GOD, Creator of the Universe is based on nothing, because it is not in the Bible.

You would tell others that he is not GOd because as you all say it he never directly or indirectly confirmed he is God (again as you say it)... but just as you believe that... you cant provide the same level of evidence that he says he isnt.

"'Why do you call me good?' Jesus answered. 'No one is good except God alone.'" - Mark 10:18

"So Jesus said, 'When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.'" - John 8:28

"The father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form." - John 5:37

"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord', shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he only he who does the will of My Father in heaven." - Matthew 7:21

"For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me." - John 6:38

"I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him." - John 13:16

"Jesus said to them, 'Only in his hometown and in his own house is a prophet without honor.'" - Matthew 13:57

"Jesus answered, 'My teaching is not my own. It comes from him who sent me.'" - John 7:16

"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." - John 14:28

(taken from thereligioustruth.com)

That is evidence enough for me. =)

d Likewise dont you think that if he really didnt want us to worship him he would have said so? Don't you think that if it was soooo wrong or blasphomous for us to put Jesus on the same level as God that he would have driven home to us that problem in his talks many a times or anytime at all?

We (Muslims) believe that the Bible is corrupt, and you can't use that as an argument in this case. However, what you can use as an argument is what is written in the Bible altogether whether you believe it is corrupt or not, and argue if it is what Christians believe.

Cant go with the "God is one" deal all the time on this type of argument.... because that is true with Christians and so it is rather ambigous in this.

Read my signature.

the way i see it... if its so wrong to believe in Jesus this way I think a disticntion should have been made.. dont you? A really clear distinction like that of the other clear ones in the bible.

I think if one reads the bible in its entirety without any view or predjudice or privy to any theological system at all one would find himself at a certain point without a doubt.... that clearly Jesus is God incarnate.

Not at all.

peace man... just making convo... just spitting out my 2 cents not trying to be mean.

lol

Originally posted by krossfyter

Originally posted by another_one

Originally posted by krossfyter

Originally posted by another_one

Originally posted by helen670
I can watch documentaries........ I can watch the news .......it says nothing to me.....It proves nothing!!!

But ANTI-ISLAMIC sources do huh ?

what ANTI-CHRISTIAN sites have you been visiting lately?

I only started doing so recently, and guess who I learned from. =D

ah but you started!

How? As far as I know, Helen670 started sending me ANTI-ISLAMIC websites, and I refused to do the same until a few days ago. I have never done it before, so how have I started anything? Please be specific.

heres why its not evidence enough for me...

because i can also find scripture that supports Jesus being God incarnate on the same level as the scripture you qoute... you know being somewhat ambigous or relative.

now whats up with using the bible if you think its corrupt????? dont use it if you think its false.


also... i didnt mean you started it... what i was saying was from an understanding that you were alluding to the fact that NOW you are starting to read them.


thats all.

i read your sig. wheres the scripture in which Jesus says he is not to be worshiped or he is not God? why dont you use that scripture? Oh yeah you cant because there isnt any.

Originally posted by HKoT
Wow abstract_alao, I was enjoying your debate with Lysergic until I saw that you didn't read me CORRECTING MYSELF, I admitted I was wrong that Constantine had nothing to do with it, what have you trouble reading the rest of the stuff?

Good Advice: Don't just write about the first thing that catches your eye.

I had saw your reply after I had posted

I must admit Lysergic

Originally posted by krossfyter
heres why its not evidence enough for me...

because i can also find scripture that supports Jesus being God incarnate on the same level as the scripture you qoute...

Ok, so which one do you believe and why? Please be specific.

now whats up with using the bible if you think its corrupt????? dont use it if you think its false.
[/quote

Yes, I didn't say it wasn't corrupt, but I quote to prove that you are not following the teachings of the corrupt Bible.

also... i didnt mean you started it... what i was saying was from an understanding that you were alluding to the fact that NOW you are starting to read them.

Oh alright, I apologize.

i read your sig. wheres the scripture in which Jesus says he is not to be worshiped or he is not God? why dont you use that scripture? Oh yeah you cant because there isnt any.

Where's the scripture in which Jesus says that he is to be worshipped and that he is God, creator of the Universe?

Are you trying to tell me because something is not there, the opposite has to be followed?

Cool, yet another contradiction. "God" in the old testament actually sees it as an insult that anyone else is a saviour beside him (read my signature).

Yet we see Jesus in the New Testament say the following;

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law (Old Testament) or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." - Matthew 5:17-18

Peace

[Edited on 5-5-2003 by another_one]

Originally posted by Maddas
There were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will introduce destructive heresies and even deny the Master that ransomed them, bringing swift destruction on themselves.
Many will follow their licentious ways, and because of them the way of truth will be reviled.
In their greed they will exploit you with fabrications, but from of old their condemnation has not been idle and their destruction does no sleep.
--2 Peter 2:1-3.--

Beloved, do not trust every spirit but test the spirits to see wheather they belong to God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. This is how you can know the Spirit of God: every spirit that acknowledges Jesus Christ come in the flesh belongs to God, and every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus does not belong to God. This is the spirit of the antichrist that, as you heard, is to come, but in fact is already in the world. You belong to God, children, and you have conqured them, for the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.
--1 John 4:1-4.--

Constantine, this...............Constantine that...........
If the arguments are to be belived.Then one can make this summation;

-Constantine had to unify the roman empire.
To do this you don't introduce a unknown or foreign doctrine, and enforce it with military force.Therefore the doctrine must have already existed before Constantine.
(When is the mystery).


-----------------------------------------------------
Quote (abstract_alao)
You don�t believe me ?!!?!? LOOK IT UP!!! I have read from countless sources and seen a many of documentaries on this man. Where do you get your info from?!?!? Not the bible!!! You listen to what has been etched in your brain by your parents and priest. The kingdom of God is with in you. You ultimately decide what you want to believe. I base what I believe on two things. History and my faith in the oneness of God. I am on the purist of knowledge and that is truly what God wants us to do. To free our mind from the lies that have been passed down from generation to generation.
Quote
------------------------------------------------------


Weak argument, it can be turned back on to you. We all have to ask ourselves these questions. Truth only comes through faith. Faith only comes through openness.

You obstinately argue using only facts from historical sources. Change your tact and show be what your faith and belief doctrine has to say. Because I to, can surf the web and read books for what I want to prove, disregarding the literature that does not.

I have an open mind and will look beneath the surface. Consider, not just the literal. Contemplate more than physical.

I can also quote passages that prove the fact the Jesus is not God. I also have an open mind. I just don't accept what people say as truth. The word is history but people don't read it. They just listen to their pastors. You say truth is faith but when everyone had faith that the world was flat they were still wrong!!! you can't not find Truth on faith by itself. oyu must use the free will and brain that God gave you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Edited on 5-5-2003 by abstract_alao]