Astronomy Enthusiasts - Your help is needed to solve a problem relating to possible Dec 21st alignme

reply to post by Phage

Does it intersect equally well from both directions from sun and earth and as perfectly, and, well doesn't the Mayan Calendar depict um something...? I know you'll well studied in these matters, but if I could might I suggest checking out the first section of this video



And then tell us with detail what you think about it, and what's wrong with the numbers, thanks.

If the Mayan calendar didn't actually measure these things the way that's been described in that video, then I for one would like to know that.

reply to post by NewAgeMan

Does it intersect equally well from both directions from sun and earth and as perfectly

I don't know what you mean.

And then tell us with detail what you think about it, and what's wrong with the numbers, thanks.

In detail. It's garbage. Alcyone is not our Sun. We do not orbit it and Sirius is not the center of the Galaxy.

doesn't the Mayan Calendar depict um something

Yes. The Mayan method of keeping track of time.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
If the Mayan calendar didn't actually measure these things the way that's been described in that video, then I for one would like to know that.

It doesnt - and remember, any youtube vieo with music added = hoax.

I watched nearly 3 and half minutes of the video and there was no content whatsoever. It appeared to still be the intro. It's a waste of time. Why don't you give a summary of the part you want to discuss?

Originally posted by Phage
Alcyone is not our Sun. We do not orbit it and Sirius is not the center of the Galaxy.

Huh?, that's not what he was saying, but that our sun orbits Alcyone and both orbit Sirius which is itself fixed relative to the center of the galaxy and rotates with the galactic rotation.

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

Does it intersect equally well from both directions from sun and earth and as perfectly

I don't know what you mean.

Originally posted by BrokenAngelWings33
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

From the Sun...see what I see here?


The alignment you were asking for I think...

I suppose if it's in alignment one way it's in alignment the other as well. What you posted was from only the one direction whereas what she's given us is from both the POV of the earth and the sun. That's what I meant.

reply to post by NewAgeMan

Yes. It would be aligned in both directions since it's all in one plane. But so what? It happens all the time. It just so happens that for the past couple of decades its been occurring on the winter solstice.

And add to that... apparently we are most often closest to the galactic center in the summer time... not the winter time. (closest is a relative term in this case)

Originally posted by pheonix358


Please don't take this the wrong way.

You claim to know this because a computer program tells you it is so. Any program is only as good as the person who wrote it. Garbage in = garbage out.

You also make the assumption that 'current human knowledge' is more advanced than what the Mayans knew. A supposed near stone age culture said to sacrifice virgins by cutting their hearts out.

The collective ego of the human species is staggering!

P

You can check what the computer program says you know its a simple operation set the time date and your location and go out and look at the sky

I had astronomy software on my Atari St in the late 80's.

Does it not occur to you that since Stellariun and other software like that have been out for many years we would know if they were wrong.

As for galactic alignment the Earth, Sun or any solar system body can be lined up with the galactic center at any time or date all you have to do is change the point you look at from to do it

Are you also claiming the Mayans didn't cut peoples hearts out!

Originally posted by pheonix358

Originally posted by Saint Exupery
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

Download Stellarium (it's freeware). Once you enter your location & time zone, you can see sunrise, etc. (the solstice is at 11:11 GMT on the 21st (source).

Note that this "galactic alignment" is BS. Although the Sun (as seen from the Earth) appears to cross the galactic equator, it doesn't actually cross the plane of the galaxy (which isn't sharply defined) anyway (and it wouldn't matter if it did), and also, the Sun as seen from the Earth will not be in line with the galactic center (which is at RA 17h45m40.04s, Dec -29° 00' 28.1" (J2000 epoch) in the Equatorial coordinate system) - it will be ~7 degrees to one side, just like it is EVERY YEAR.

Please don't take this the wrong way.

You claim to know this because a computer program tells you it is so. Any program is only as good as the person who wrote it. Garbage in = garbage out.

He knows the galactic plane crossing claim is BS because he understands astronomy and our location in the galaxy. Stellarium has nothing to do with that. As for knowing that the sun will cross the galactic equator on December 21st but not the galactic center, you don't even need Stellarium for that; astronomers like Simon Newcomb correctly predicted the sun's position at future solstices over a hundred years ago. And guess what? Their calculations were right, they work! I know it works because I've put it to the test myself! Want to actually learn something rather than make vague statements about GIGO when you haven't the slightest clue about just how well these programs work or how they work, then go pick up some old books like "The Elements of the Four Inner Planets and the Fundamental Constants of Astronomy" and start reading.

You also make the assumption that 'current human knowledge' is more advanced than what the Mayans knew. A supposed near stone age culture said to sacrifice virgins by cutting their hearts out.

We do know more about astronomy than they did. Deal with it. Oh they were good for their time, but they would not have had the foggiest clue about orbital mechanics or how to put a probe anywhere they want it on another planet. Hell, for that matter, show me where they figured out Kepler's third law. If you want to think the Mayans knew more about astronomy than we do, go right ahead, but it's precisely that kind of ignorance of our current knowledge that misleads you into thinking that people like Saint Exupery know what they know only because a "computer program" told them so.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan

Originally posted by Phage
Alcyone is not our Sun. We do not orbit it and Sirius is not the center of the Galaxy.

Huh?, that's not what he was saying, but that our sun orbits Alcyone and both orbit Sirius which is itself fixed relative to the center of the galaxy and rotates with the galactic rotation.

Complete nonsense. Here are some numbers for you. Sirius has a proper motion of 1.2 arcseconds/year in declination and .546 arcseconds per year in right ascension (simbad.u-strasbg.fr... ) (15 km/sec and 6.8 km/sec velocity relative to our solar system respectively). Since we're about 8.6 light years from the Sirius system, and since Sirius A and B have a combined mass of nearly 3 times the sun's mass, the escape velocity from the Sirius system at the distance of our sun is about 0.1 km/sec. In other words, our solar system is traveling many times too fast relative to Sirius to be able to orbit it or be in a trinary configuration with it.

Let's crunch the numbers for Alcyone as well just to show you how ridiculous this is. Alcyone is of course part of the Pleiades as well, so let's use the total mass of the Pleiades cluster to see if we're orbiting it. Alcyone has a parallax of about 8.09 milliarcseconds, which corresponds to a distance of about 402 light years.
simbad.u-strasbg.fr...
It also has a proper motion of about 19.34 milliarcseconds in right ascension and -43.67 milliarcseconds in declination per year. Now at a distance of 402 light years, those 43.67 milliarcseconds/year in declination translate to 805,195,033 kilometers per year or about 25.515 km/second. Now the Pleiades cluster has a total mass of about 740 sun masses (arxiv.org... ), so at a distance of 400 light years, the escape velocity for the entire Pleiades cluster is about 0.227861 km/second. In other words, even just taking into account our proper motion in declination, to say nothing of our total motion relative to Alcyone including in right ascension and radial velocity, we're traveling over 100 times too fast to be orbiting the Pleiades! We are not orbiting the Pleiades, let alone Alcyone, not even close.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


To add to ngchunter's post... the orbits of both the Sun (yellow) and Alcyone (blue):


Source

Both orbit the center of the galaxy. Neither one orbits the other.
And if all this hasn't been enough, an orbit of 26,000 years around Alcyone, at a distance of around 400 light-years, while giving an orbital velocity of much greater than Alcyone's escape velocity at this distance (as ngchunter said), would also cause an incredible parallax of the stars from our perspective. In fact, note how the stars shift over a 6 month period due to our orbit around the Sun...and now consider that the supposed orbital velocity of the Solar System around Alcyone would be a full 1000 times faster. This sort of parallax is something that we obviously do not see.

New Age nonsense.

Yes I've learned that there's no way our sun is orbiting Alcyone. However, there seems to be some agreement our there that the Sirius A-B system could be functioning as a central turning point for a group of other stars which could include our sun - still researching.

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

Yes. It would be aligned in both directions since it's all in one plane. But so what? It happens all the time. It just so happens that for the past couple of decades its been occurring on the winter solstice.

So, you're saying that no matter where the earth is in its orbit around the sun, that from the POV of the sun, the earth would also be in the exact same plane in alignment with the galactic plane? I thought you were the great Phage..? I must have been mistaken, because even I know that the point of alignment with the rest of the galaxy from the earth and the sun could differ depending on where we are in our orbit and inclination.

I realize I don't have as much info and I'm willing to be honest about what I don't know, but you, as a dedicated debunker of all things might have just enough information to be dangerous when it comes to "denying ignorance".

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
Yes I've learned that there's no way our sun is orbiting Alcyone. However, there seems to be some agreement our there that the Sirius A-B system could be functioning as a central turning point for a group of other stars which could include our sun - still researching.

We don't orbit Sirius either. I already gave you the numbers on that.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

Yes. It would be aligned in both directions since it's all in one plane. But so what? It happens all the time. It just so happens that for the past couple of decades its been occurring on the winter solstice.

So, you're saying that no matter where the earth is in its orbit around the sun, that from the POV of the sun, the earth would also be in the exact same plane in alignment with the galactic plane? I thought you were the great Phage..? I must have been mistaken, because even I know that the point of alignment with the rest of the galaxy from the earth and the sun could differ depending on where we are in our orbit and inclination.

I realize I don't have as much info and I'm willing to be honest about what I don't know, but you, as a dedicated debunker of all things might have just enough information to be dangerous when it comes to "denying ignorance".

What part of "for the past couple decades it's been occurring on the winter solstice" do you not understand? Why are you putting words in Phage's mouth? He didn't say it didn't matter where the earth was in its orbit, he said that it did this on the day of the winter (for northerners) solstice for years and years now. Here's a non-rhetorical question for you; how many times a year does the earth appear to be on the galactic equator from the point of view of the sun (or vice versa, the sun from the point of view of the earth)?

Hi all, I'm new so don't be harsh :-),
The one main thing we do know Is that we don't know what is going to happen on the 21st, We also have to remember many of the sources we gather our information and research from can be wrong, science theory's change everyday. But we blindly trust these people because they are of higher intelligence and social stature,
We are lied to everyday from the government, news agency's, authority's the media and many more all with the same excuse TO PROTECT US. When we are now starting to see its them we needed protecting from, the worlds is now run by greed we need to unite and put the world back on track for all of us.
I will be soon starting a group for everyone to try to rise above the deceit.


I'm also asking for any help in creating a website for the group.

Ted
The sapien group
The group for all of us

reply to post by Ted1987


Laws of celestial motion have been known and tested for hundreds of years. We know where the Earth and other planets will be on Dec 21, and we know the approximate location of the Solar System in the galaxy. Astronomically-speaking, we know pretty well what's going to happen. No catastrophic alignments or pole shifts, no destructive influence from the galactic centre. It's not a matter of opinion or some shaky theories that, according to you, change every day; it's a matter of fact just like the fact that a stone released from your hand will fall to the ground due to gravity.

Your post really makes me wonder, how can people completely distrust and disregard science or anything else that comes from professional institutions. Well, if you don't trust the scientists and the hundred years' worth of research and knowledge, how about you do it yourself? Build your own telescope, observe the motion of planets and other celestial bodies, make your own theories.

What we know today about space didn't come from the government or only the rich people. Many discoveries were made by poor people or amateurs, people who wanted to know the truth. I'm really saddened to see that all their good work is brushed aside by ignorant people.

reply to post by wildespace


Hi, I'm sorry if my post offended you,
Many scientists have spent lifetimes discovering new breakthroughs and I have the utmost respect for these people, the opinion I was trying to get across is that the science field could find something new tomorrow which could change the basis of all facts known to science and space, there is still alot of unknown quantities,
And the people with money and the government are taking advantage of that to manipulate us.
This is my opinion it shouldn't sadden you, and it certainly doesn't give you the right to call me ignorant,

Ted
The sapien group

Sorry just to add I agree with what you say about the 21st no end of world scenarios.

Ted
The sapien group